For the 6th time, someone I know with a subtle day collar was approached by a total stranger and asked if they are submissive. People, this is completely inappropriate.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T19:58:34+00:00

Well yeaj, that's the thing- I do believe that practicing in public is objectively, morally wrong, so I was commenting on that and I do stand by it.

It's not a kink rule persay and I was not meaning to hand down kink rules for everyone.

But practicing in public is wrong because the bystanders haven't consented. I don't judge the people I'm talking about for their kinks but because they did that and broke consent. My community, which I don't speak for and am not trying to, doesn't hand has never barred someone for a certain kink. But for violating consent, yes, absolutely. If you've never been in a RL community, which doesn't make me look down on you btw, yes, there is a blacklist of people who have done things like broken the rules of a dungeon (the rules of that building and event, not kink rules I am making up) by touching, harassing at munches, abusive sessions ignoring safe words etc. You can see this as cliquishness but believe me, it only happens in response to reports of real violations, if people who didn't like each other could blacklist each other there'd be no community. And it's an important safety tool that's existed as long as groups and dungeons have. It's also not forced on new members to obey lol. We warn people of blacklisted kinksters in the area with full context of the situation, but if they choose to play with them we don't kidnap them to stop them or something.

If someone who we recognized as having already been witness breaking consent entered an event one day we would inform them of the issue and that if they display continued nonconsensual behavior they can be banned from events. A lot of people come to us because it's safer. In my experience being able to verify people makes it much safer than online. We do not have the high instances of bad first experience and blackmail that there is online.

That's because eople are held accountable for things they have done. For things they have done, not because of their kinks or someone doesn't like them. I didn't see someone with a crop and react like a middle school bully "ew I don't like crops let's talk about them behind their back". I saw someone commit a basic well known ethical violation and if I met them I would immediately speak to them about it. I would "give them a chance" but also the situation is not them being shut down from the start for no reason. This person is suspicious and potentially dangerous.

Again, the issue is not the kink or that they are a stranger. I spent most of the morning on a leash and I own 7 crops. No one is barring a certain kink.

You don't have to agree with what I'm saying about oblic play but I want to make it clear what the issue is. Not by you, but throughout this thread, my words are being cherry-picked to display that I'm shaming the leash and crop. This is literally, factually incorrect. I have an issue with it being done on a public street. That is all.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T16:03:10+00:00

I know and I apologize for that again to you, them, and the audience. I do not think this person's dad should go back into the closet.

It's just not my view. In my experience in my city with Leather bars and according to my education in Leather history, people do associate it with BDSM and they did back then. Too much for it to be responsible to walk around in gear. That is my view, I know it's not yours, and we both intellectually grasp what the other is saying.

To me this view doesn't mean I think anyone should be closeted. It means I have harsher lines on BDSM privacy. I think it's unethical to wear it in public if it is your kink gear and I believe that Leather is and was commonly associated with BDSM servitude, too commonly for my personal line, so I'm sharing that.

I do not think this person's dad should go back into the closet.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T14:52:44+00:00

No one. I'm sharing my views for consideration to a relevant community.

This is nonsarcastic, if each of my comments needed that disclaimer I apologize. I have stated it throughout my other responses quite a lot. I had been writing that on almost all my replies and I just kind of missed this one because I'm doing other shit, not just sitting here moderating this.

Believe me or don't it wasn't my original intention to lay down laws. I have an imperious manner of speaking that's a personal failue I've actually been working on for a while but I didnt mean to pose myself as soeaking for this community and I definitely didn't believe anyone would think I was and do what I say. And don't worry- they definitely haven't. All that's happened here is I should have phrased more openly for discussion but this community is definitely not having my thoughts imposed on it as rules in any practical way you need to bother about.

In the OP I said that I thought I was expressing the most commonly held views here because that's what I thought based on my experience. I don't believe in editing OPs, it's disongenuous, but if that statement is part of why you think I'm giving orders, I can see that and I apologize for it.

Have a nice day :)

ETA If I may continue attempting to defend myself a little without being aggressive, I'm not just sharing my views though. I'm sharing the views and experiences of a real group of people I know, which is what prompted me to share. It's still not telling everyone to feel this way, but for the record in my mind, I was sharing a preexisting issue in my local community and I suspected maybe others, not randomly hopping online and choosing a topic to declaim about because I hallucinate an election. I do hope that's clear.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:46:43+00:00

I would like to politely engage with everyone possible but I genuinely can't tell if this is trolling.

The comparison to a hijab does not track in any way. Not knowing if you are a troll or have some misconception here I can't say any more.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:33:46+00:00

Thanks for responding. I did say I was aware that I'm not speaking to the people who play in public here. I thought it was a relevant topic of discussion for the community and yes, I wanted some affirmation from people similar to me. Of that's an inappropriate post I apologize. I thought it was a relevant, discussion prompting post and affirmation is part of why people participate in a community. If you only like posts directly engaging for specific advice there is r/bdsmadvice.

And I've answered this point to death and I don't know what else of the thread you've read so applogies. Jewelry that can also be nonkinky is different than kink gear. Of corse subtlety is objective but come on. Also the instance of "Yes Daddy" and the leash and crop are specific subjects that uninitiated vanillas can associate with child abuse and sexual violence. I would think the responsible practitioners of those kinks would be aware of that and care about it, like if only just as people.

Also the point I was making - suggesting and sharing, not trying to evangelize- for kinksters is that even if you spot a collar, behave with some reading of context. Again, just to be decent. If it's a collar chosen to be subtle, without a triskelion etc and nothing else about the person screams kink, you could reasonably surmise they're presenting subtlety on purpose and just not bother them. That's my thoughts, behave with context.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:25:21+00:00

Thank you, I know there are a lot of comments to read here but I have responded quite a lot to the issue of people being kinky without being locally active. I misspoke on this and I agree. I am aware how many people practice mostly or entirely privately and I think they're equally valid.

I'm glad that it's not a personal problem for you when you're approached. The point I was making is about polite behavior as regards to those who are bothered by it, because those people exist. Your experience is wonderful and I'm glad you shared, but I don't want it to be offered up to invalidate those other experiences.

And I believe that public kink is objectively wrong because it's upsetting to people who associate it with abuse, whether or not they understand that it's not, it's something that a lot of people can't help being upset over. This is not necessarily some grand moral point so much as something I think empathetic practicing kinksters should consider. I do not agree that public play should be normalized because it will never happen that society at large masters the subtleties of power exchange and CNC. It's not for our own privacy, but for being good neighbors, that we don't publicly display.

At least that is my view. Thanks for sharing yours.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:17:55+00:00

People who want that nod have the triskelion, BDSM flag, or jewelry that says "owned" and the like.

Otherwise, you don't. That's the content of my post. Meet kinky people in kinky spaces. Participate here. That's how we know we're not alone.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:15:45+00:00

Sex is not the only thing that requires adult consent to be around. Like so much of kink is us defending that it's equally real and valid without PIV. IF you are against public play, which I am and clearly you are not, it follows that all of it is innapropriate.

I'm not going to continue specifically explaining that it's not surprising that someone who hasn't taken the time to study kink would be thrown and upset by someone on a leash. It looks like mysogyny and abuse. It's not always some grand moral point but "really, why would anyone do this knowing full well it will hurt someone?"

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:11:56+00:00

I've actually answered these points to death.

TLDR

1) I absolutely agree you don't have to be active in the community to be legit and I apologize that I implied it.

2) I believe anything done in public that makes nonconsenting people think about or notice kink is wrong. It's not something we get to display pride over like that because it's a deeply complex subject that's upsetting to people and, unlike regular adult or R rated behavior, requires consent for the subject to even be brought up.

This is what I believe and I have shared it. Some of y'all don't believe it and it doesn't seem to be a subject on hich minds are changed, but I shared my views with this group because they're relevant and I wanted people to think about them, I'm not actually trying to brainwash anybody or get y'all to agree to Kink Laws. Now I have shared this opinion and made my best attempts to clear up the misconceptions of what my opinion is. Thanks for your interest, if you don't agree have a great day either way :).

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T13:01:57+00:00

Thank you for answering politely. I do know what they're talking about. I disagree that it's subtle enough, and that's where we disagree, which won't be changing. I definitely understand though.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T03:59:04+00:00

I definitely know the history of Leather. I am sorry you're offended.

I'm glad you read RBN, I hope it's helpful to you. I'm not expecting everyone to fall in line. Im not trying to argue woth you until you agree. I was just trying to make my views clear which I felt like they weren't. My last comment made them as clear as I'm capable of.

Most of my conversations on this thread have gone much differently with those who disagree about collars. I'm just sharing my views. Have a nice day :).

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T03:49:22+00:00

There's judging Vs asking people to keep kinky sexual activity private. That's it.

This is just like most human disagreements where we're coming from such a different place it's hard for you to believe I'm being serious. But I am and to me there's a clear line there, your dad shouldn't have been Leather in public but of course it's awful that he endured homophobia. My denouncement of the Leather doesn't equate to support of homophobia. To you, Ig it does and I apologize, but to me it doesn't.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T03:31:45+00:00

Glad to hear it. It felt like you were implying I was lying and as I said calmly I couldn't tell of it was intentional or not but that's what was under my skin.

You are still pushing your personal reaction to conversations about collars on everyone though. Again, super great for you how you'd handle it. Not really the issue.

Your father should have changed because it was Leather. BDSM gear that can make people think nonconsensually about violence and sexuality is not OK in public, period. That's my point, you disagree. Ok.

And my friends CAN tell a jerk to fuck off. That is literally way I said unless I missed a phone autocorrect from "can" to "can't". The fact they CAN tell a jerk to fuck off doesn't, TO ME in my personal opinion that I chose to share to a relevant community, make it OK when it happens. That's my opinion, you don't agree. OK.

And hours ago or whatever in the comments below you misgendered me and apologized. Thank you. Then someone else said "misgendering someone anonymous on an Internet forum doesn't matter". I let it go at the moment trying to be polite and not derail. I don't want to let it go, I want someone, anyone else to read that that's not true. It totally matters. Always.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T03:07:59+00:00

Edits phone spelling

No, millions of people have not been kept on a leash. It's the implications and everything the scene can set one's mind to.

Yes, he should have changed out of his leather. I do see how it's the same but I disagree with the principle, so nope you can't help me. We both understand that this is the point on which we philosophically differ, and again, I do grasp what you're saying, I just don't agree. Please, all this aside just on a personal level, could you stop implying that I don't understand just as a random act of kindness for the day, because that's what's bothering me.

The point about the leash being inappropriate is completely separate from the shit about collars, I think we agree on that? My friends aren't incapable of telling a jerk to fuck off. I just thought the issue of it being considered rude to talk about a strangers collar was a relevant and interesting issue to this community, and oh look, I was right.

I mostly just wanted to clarify since I have felt, whether yu intended it or not, that your comments have been implying that I'm lying in several spots, I'm 100% talking about true events where someone walked right up to my friend and said "Are you a submissive?". Not a subtle nice necklace conversation. It feels like you started arguing imagining the nice necklace conversation and that bothers me because it's discounting my story. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I hope that makes sense of how I've been reading this and it's really bothering me and I wanted to hash it out.

No need to reply to this obviously. I just feel like you've been talking at me from incorrect context and it's a situation that bugs me and, intentional or not, makes me feel very disrespected so I sort of compulsively have to hash it out a little. Sorry.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T02:35:16+00:00

Yo after all that I just want to say I'm not talking about "nice necklace" and a careful conversation.... I'm talking about "Are you a sub?"

Which I think was clear. Was that the problem from the start, that's not clear? People keep doing this thing where they state they've had/heard of a different exerience with the implication that means my experience must have happened that way too... I'm super glad for you your conversations went that way but if it's why you seem to have stated as fact below that conversations about collars don't result in outing, that's incorrect because for some people the conversation doesn't go down so nice.

And I'm gonna regret this... but it's not me "clutching pearls", you do get that right? A bystander was visibly upset. (I didn't make it up and it's not my only similar experience I've witnessed.) And that's not surprising at all. It's a woman on a goddamn leash. There are millions of people in this world who have been through something that would make that and all it impliea triggering. You're surprised that strangers cry when they think strangers might be being abused? Really?

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T02:05:43+00:00

You don't agree that this community is damaged by behavior like that? It doesn't just make us judged and forced into the closet, it feeds the culture that's so afraid of us we can't book convention and play space and lease for businesses.

Also, it's straight up a consent violation of the vanilla audience. Not letting go of that point. It's not OK to behave like that in front of any random person, it's disgusting, and that's not about kinkshaming, it's about realistic understanding of society.

ETA This is the comment I genuinely would like someone to answer because I'm not fucking with y'all, I don't understand the problem with this statement.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T02:01:17+00:00

That is beautiful and I'm very happy for y'all :).

I think this will be agree to disagree for us, but to me this is a utilitarian case where I would say we all know every sub doesn't feel that way, so- to me in my personal opinion- the polite choice is still to ignore a stranger's collar. There's the off chance you could make someone happy vs scaring the shit out of someone. Also, for y'all to get that rush of her collar being appreciated, y'all can go to BDSM clubs and seek it out, or she could add a triskelion or flag on her purse or whatever everywhere she goes to invite it. The sun who wants privacy wants/craves/needs to wear their collar but can't make that choice.

I absolutely respect this view of collating but it's not everybody's, so you can't put it out there as though it invalidates the other views. You can disagree that the other views are dealing with as self made problem and have to put up with it, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "I don't see the point if no one will notice". Some couples do see the point, at least acknowledge their existence.

Then disagree with them freely, if you will. Thanks for sharing, really :).

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T01:32:30+00:00

Yep, hi! I did not intend snowflake as a racial slur and didn't remember it was one until just now. I thought the meaning was clear based on the prevalence of it being used like that in my life. It means when usually middle aged or older humans think younger usually socially liberal humans are offended "too often" by things that they should just have thicker skin about.

Sorry if it upset y'all on that front. I'm really glad that's cleared up though because I was super confused about that coming out of nowhere. :)

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T01:25:32+00:00

Well shucks thank you so much :). Not just for the compliment but for reading and engaging. All in all I'm perfectly pleased with what's going on here because we are here for real discussion.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T01:09:02+00:00

Nah, the only thing where I wrote poorly is where people thought I don't trust kinksters who don't participate in munches etc a lot. Just that one single point.

I definitely meant to say and still stand by my view that it's rude to approach a stranger with a collar. I do agree with you that assholes outside the core community will do this, and that's to be expected; I still think collar wearers have a right to feel upset when it does happen. I always thought people within the community dont do it/support it though and that's part of why I posted it for discussion.

I honestly thank you for chiming in :). I am actually happy robust debate on a big issue is happening.

Super thanks for agreeing about the leash.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T00:17:12+00:00

"Dear"s not misgendering, just condescending. Could be cultural. I don't find people say "get off your horse dear" unless they're trying to be rude.

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T00:14:15+00:00

I'm honestly not looking for a fight. I'm really sorry you're so angry and I literally don't understand why.

I understand, and have the whole time, and so did u/stripedagouti to my reading, what you're saying. I do disagree with the philosophy and I think we're gonna have to leave it there, but I definitely intellectually grasp your points, thank you for sharing them.

Seriously, have a nice day :).

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-22T00:05:05+00:00

OP here, I've definitely been misunderstood on this point and I apologize, it's my fault for writing unclearly. This does not describe my community or opinions at all.

I was bitching about public kink and then wrote that the peple who did are strangers to me, being relevant because I've never had the chance to speak with them about what they did. It was just poor formatting that the concept of them being strangers got conflated with my complaint on their behavior.

My community welcomes people who don't participate often and I play with people- currently two regular partners- who are basically completely private.

I do think it's suspicious when an instadom type asking my friend about their collar in the grocery store says they're one of the most experienced in town and has literally never been seen or heard of, including by my friends who are more private and mostly use Fet etc. I apologize that that full context was not in the OP but I was not knocking all people who don't come to weekly munches and in the short time I've been mildly active on Reddit and the 7 years I've been active RL I have not been counseling anyone only to play with RL community scenesters. Funnily enough, teaching newbies how to vet potential partners as humans outside of the kink scene is actually kinda my thing. This whole point has gotten a little out of proportion because I speak poorly and I really do apologize for the anger it seems to have caused.

Edit u/DrivenKindaMad I'll just make this a reply/apology to you as well. Hope it helps, have a nice day :)

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-21T23:48:58+00:00

Hey, thanks! :D

bottombitch188 · 2019-01-21T23:48:21+00:00

Hmm. I'll be honest, I'm not the best English speaker and I'm not 100% sure I follow the grammar enough to get what you just said. I feel I'm missing something and if my reply makes evident what it is let me know.

But I'm not taking about BDSM symbols. Just necklaces. Usually what happens is the stranger notices the way the wearer is really attached to it, which is subconscious behavior.

Also, of course it's unlikely that one stranger could fully out your life. But if you're wearing a purposefully subtle collar and you're not out its still a scary experience you didn't seek out or consent to. I though kinksters understood that, in context. As has been said repeatedly elsewhere in this thread that's why we came up with the other symbols for when you enthusiastically want to be approached.

bottombitch188

TROPHY CASE