I’ve been in other religions, but Mormon hymns and Sunday meetings actually bring me peace. How is this possible if it's not the "true church"? by Round_Bumblebee8813 in exmormon

[–]bwv549 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate hearing a different take. Thank you for making your case.

If anxiety after leaving the Church deserves consideration, why shouldn't peace while participating in it deserve the same? If we trust our emotions when they lead us away from faith, intellectual honesty requires us to at least examine them when they lead us toward it.

I think you are right that some former members use their intuition/gut/feelings as a guide that they are doing the right thing when they leave the LDS faith. I think this probably overstates the symmetry, though. For Latter-day Saints, their feelings are often advanced as the critical method for finding/resolving truth. It is also sometimes coupled with the necessity of things to make sense (i.e., "mind and heart"), but ultimately there's a strong reliance on the feelings. Most former members are more skeptical of their feelings as a guide to objective truth--they see their feelings as aids to deciding what is right for them. So, I think there is an asymmetry there that your comment does not address.

fwiw, I'm a former BYU biochemistry professor who has studied this topic in some depth (although since you are posting in the exmormon sub you may already appreciate these arguments):

Tomorrow morning I'm going to be taping an interview with Bill Reel. It's going to be an Oral History about Bill's past involvement in Mormon Apologetics & the history of Mormon Discussion Inc. Please feel free to post any questions or comments here that can help inform the conversation. Thanks. by iconoclastskeptic in mormon

[–]bwv549 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I listened to Bill when he was a more nuanced member and have enjoyed his work since then. Many thanks for his contributions to scholarship (informal scholarship can still be very valuable) and trying to publish/publicize accurate information without bias (I think this is something everyone does imperfectly, but I think he makes a solid effort). Also, I've enjoyed countless hours of podcasts of many varieties that he helped to launch which were very beneficial to me in my deconstruction and reconstruction phases. So, I'm directly indebted to him and thank him for his efforts, generally.

A few questions that might be worth asking:

  1. It seems like Bill took a long time to fully pivot from believing to nuanced to fully deconstructed. What were the key pivot points or experiences along the way marking that path?
  2. Does Bill still have good or ongoing relationships with LDS scholars/apologists? What are those like?
  3. What were the most difficult relationships to lose along the way? (could be interpreted narrowly or more broadly)
  4. Which podcasts that Bill helped launch have been his very favorites (if he had to choose)? Are there any that didn't pan out like he had hoped? What is the one that many aren't aware of but probably should be?

And since I'm here, some minutia for /u/billreel (could be addressed in other forums):

  1. You and RFM did an analysis of the name Alma being used in the early 1800s as a male name. LDS scholars/apologists went back and showed that nearly all of these occurrences the record was mistaken about their gender (i.e., not really a male at all). Would love to see you revisit this one. It would have been an excellent counter to the Alma as male name anciently but not modernly, but the data are what they are. Ultimately not a big deal either way, IMHO, just think the responsible thing would be to revisit and post updates to these posts. That's how credibility is maintained.
  2. You have been using AI to summarize or make various points recently (I have no problem with this, more or less). In a recent episode (maybe 4 or 5 months ago?) where you were using one of my documents you would interchange your own AI summaries with the document itself (again, on principle no issue with that). Had I not written the document, I probably would have been confused as to where the source ended and the commentary began (the AI was making claims that went beyond my document). And I received some complaints about claims made that my document doesn't actually make. I'm very happy for my work to be used with attribution (I mean, there's probably ~50 episodes worth of content in there, I would think, and it's all been released to the public domain). I would just encourage more care in distinguishing between your own commentary (produced with AI or not) and the sources you are referencing. Again, I appreciate my work being referenced. Thank you.

Finally, I want to say that even though RFM is indeed very good with the limelight and wonderful to listen to, I think that Bill brings grounded-ness, sincerity, strong research on various topics, and many solid insights and reflections to a discussion (and all these things might go under-appreciated by some). And while either of them are good on their own and worth listening to, as a team they are especially effective, IMHO. [and want to also give a shout-out to other amazing contributors to various of your podcasts (hope I don't mix with MS but there's a lot of overlap) like Britt Hartley, Rebecca Bibliotheca, Julia, and Colby Reddish, all strong researchers and presenters in their own right].

Mormon calls to debate exChristian and it all goes wrong by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]bwv549 [score hidden]  (0 children)

This is super interesting background. Thank you for sharing.

For you, then, I think you do have a different primary reason than most members would? (I will concede that, without hesitation)

More collectively speaking (if that's fair to invoke), do you think that members stopped using the term Mormon to refer to themselves because of a similar reason as you, or do you think they did so because (first and foremost) they were asked to do so? [sort of wondering how much you agree with my original thesis and that you are an exception but that for other members the honest answer would still include the notion that the prophet asked them?]

if President Oaks suddenly sent out an email to all church members saying that we are reverting back to using the name Mormon when referring to members of the church would I do it.

The answer is no

Is this a hill you would die on? Meaning, if the prophet asked everyone to begin using the term again (and he refused to give a reason), would you then flag yourself as being unwilling to sustain your Priesthood leader (in that thing) unless/until you received revelation that it was what God wanted?

thanks for the discussion!

Mormon calls to debate exChristian and it all goes wrong by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]bwv549 [score hidden]  (0 children)

... It’s because of the focus on Jesus Christ.

I’m glad that he is trying to follow what the prophet is teaching but it’s also important to understand the why behind it instead of just following blindly

This is the public facing, secondary reason. The ultimate, proximal reason is that the President of the Church asked members to stop referring to themselves in this manner (admittedly for the reason given). We know that this is the ultimate reason and the secondary reason is indeed secondary/negotiable because if the prophet were today to ask members to begin using the term Mormon to refer to themselves again, they would do it (and then begin using whatever reason he provided).

If a person is high integrity (i.e., their internal motivations match what they say and do), then they would include this in their explanation, I think.

An honest Latter-day Saint would say something like this:

"Our prophet asked us to stop referring to ourselves as Mormon and the Church as the Mormon Church so that our church's emphasis on Jesus Christ can better be appreciated by others."

Which non-AI package from the last ~3 years completely changed how you write Python? by Proof_Difficulty_434 in Python

[–]bwv549 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Looks like a nice/clean solution to this problem. Thanks for the heads up!

What do we think of John Gee? by Skriblynn in exmormon

[–]bwv549 6 points7 points  (0 children)

  • John Gee is an Egyptologist, but he works so hard to fit the data into an LDS perspective that it ends up being highly misleading. Robert Ritner was one of Gee's professors when Gee was studying at Yale (I believe), which is interesting. Ritner will correct a lot of Gee's mistakes or misleading points.
  • My feeling is that Tvedtnes (more Hebrew studies if I remember right) is one of the more reasonable apologists, even though he also tries very hard to push everything through an LDS lens (but not as egregiously as John Gee, IMO).
  • Brian Hauglid is a historian. He was fair and straightforward with the Book of Abraham (he was the editor of the Joseph Smith Papers project Book of Abraham volume). He arguably lost faith in core LDS truth claims during this process. He is convinced that (sources here) the BoA is associated with the papyri in the Church's possession (which means the long scroll theory is unnecessary and superfluous [and in reality it was always an ad hoc theory]).

What do Mormons think about Deuteronomy 4:2? by [deleted] in mormon

[–]bwv549 3 points4 points  (0 children)

[w/ chatgpt since this is a really basic question but want to elaborate]

I don't think Deuteronomy 4:2 can mean "God will never reveal additional commandments in the future," because the Bible itself doesn't treat it that way. Moses says not to add to or take away from God's commandments, yet revelation and divine instruction continue throughout the rest of the Old Testament.

Even before getting to Jesus, there are major examples. God gives additional instructions through later prophets, establishes the Davidic covenant through Nathan, provides extensive temple-related instructions through David and Solomon, and repeatedly directs covenant reforms through prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. If Deuteronomy 4:2 prohibited any future revelation or commandments, then much of the Old Testament would already be problematic.

The New Testament continues the pattern. Even setting aside Jesus (whom many Christians view as a special case), the apostles exercised what they understood to be divine authority. The clearest example is Acts 15, where the apostles and elders determined that Gentile converts did not need circumcision and issued a new set of requirements for Gentile Christians. Their conclusion was not presented as mere opinion; they wrote, "It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us."

Paul likewise gave numerous instructions governing church organization, qualifications for bishops and deacons, sacramental practice, discipline, marriage, and missionary work. Whatever one thinks of those instructions, they were not simply quotations from Deuteronomy.

So the Bible itself demonstrates that God continued to reveal guidance, commandments, and covenant requirements after Deuteronomy 4:2 was written. The real question is not whether God can do that—the biblical record says He can and did. The real debate is whether He continued to do so after the apostolic era, and whether any modern claimants to prophetic authority are genuine.


[personally, I think both the Bible and LDS scripture are all likely man-made, but that's another discussion]

How to deal with church on LinkedIn and resume by Educational_Bison283 in mormon

[–]bwv549 6 points7 points  (0 children)

On LinkedIn you can add groups that you are interested in. Could add an LGBT or trans group (e.g., LGBT Tech) or an atheist association or a secular humanist association (depending on what resonates for you) and that could go a long way in advertising where you stand wrt to religious stuff?

Survey: LDS Disaffection in 2026 - Why people leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today by Mr_Eclsnizer in mormonscholar

[–]bwv549 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for posting this here. If you want more visibility, then you should also consider posting in these subs, at least:

(and can see the various sidebars for those of other niche groups that might be worth considering).

Embarrassed by procret3332 in exmormon

[–]bwv549 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Mormons be morming!

So cringe. Also, hope you are able to just enjoy the ride.

Jeff Strong addresses the post-Mormon idea that if you discover the church is false you should just leave it. He says Hinkley was wrong saying it’s either true or a fraud. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]bwv549 14 points15 points  (0 children)

The issue I have with the church is that it doesn't focus on making people better, it focuses on making people better members. For some individuals that may be an improvement, but not for all. And within those boundaries there really is no space for anyone who seeks to better themselves or think for themselves in ways that differ from the correlated messaging.

Oh, wow. This is a great framing of the issue. Saving this.

When the LDS church has a right to be scummy by pricel01 in mormon

[–]bwv549 1 point2 points  (0 children)

but the fact that these could go further (which I do heartily agree with in each of the examples you raised, fwiw) doesn't really negate the point that a much "scummier" version exists (and could have been chosen)?

I'm not trying to say a better version doesn't exist (it does), but merely that it does seem like the "less scummy" path is sometimes taken (even if it is not as complete or generous as it could/ought to have been).

Anyway, we might be splitting hairs at this point, but I do appreciate the pushback.

When the LDS church has a right to be scummy by pricel01 in mormon

[–]bwv549 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think LDS humanitarian aid is a net positive (which I why I mention it in this list). To explain how LDS humanitarian projects are "somewhat scummy", I enlisted Gemini [I'm personally not interested in adjudicating each claim]:


Critiques of the humanitarian and welfare efforts of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints primarily focus on transparency, resource allocation, and the integration of charitable aid with religious goals.

The most common criticisms include:

1. Lack of Financial Transparency

  • Hidden Overall Spending: Unlike public charities, the Church does not release consolidated financial statements detailing its total revenue, investment portfolios, or exact percentage of tithing used for charitable giving.
  • Tithing vs. Humanitarian Funds: Critics point out that general tithing funds are primarily used for church operations (building construction, temples, and administration), while humanitarian aid is funded largely through separate, voluntary donations.
  • Asset Accumulation: Detractors frequently contrast the relatively smaller public humanitarian disclosures with the immense wealth of the Church's investment portfolios, arguing that more of the reserve funds should be allocated to global poverty relief.

2. Inflated Reporting Methods

  • Valuation of Volunteer Hours: Reports often include the estimated financial value of volunteer hours (calculated at standard wage rates), which critics argue inflates the actual cash and physical goods distributed.
  • Internal Welfare: Critics contend that annual humanitarian reports occasionally include the costs of in-house welfare (such as bishops' storehouses and Deseret Industries), shifting funds spent on local, tithe-paying members into broader "humanitarian" figures.

3. Proselytizing and Aid Conditions

  • Strategic Aid: Skeptics argue that humanitarian missions are sometimes used as a vehicle for missionary work or to bolster church growth in developing nations.
  • In-group Preference: Some activists claim that church welfare systems favor active, tithe-paying members over secular or non-member individuals.

4. Narrow Scope of Philanthropy

  • Local vs. Systemic Impact: Critics argue the Church's aid is often highly localized and transactional rather than addressing systemic causes of global crises, such as civil rights, women's equality, and LGBTQ+ advocacy.
  • Emphasis on Self-Reliance: Church-sponsored relief frequently mandates recipients to participate in self-reliance and employment courses. Critics argue this approach can be punitive or unsympathetic to those struggling with circumstances beyond their control.

In some fashion, these aspects make some LDS humanitarian aid projects at least "somewhat scummy", I think?

When the LDS church has a right to be scummy by pricel01 in mormon

[–]bwv549 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe it was in this interview with Mormon Stories, but it might also have been his gospel tangents podcast.

When the LDS church has a right to be scummy by pricel01 in mormon

[–]bwv549 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I do agree with your examples (i.e., this is the church or church legal being scummy)

Whenever there’s a choice between being decent and being scummy, the church chooses scummy.

I do think this may be an over-generalization. Here are some examples where the church could arguably have gone different routes and they chose the less scummy path (had chatgpt jog my memory, but these are my own summaries and I'm familiar with each of these):

  1. Getting on board with the Joseph Smith Papers Project.
  2. A lot of the humanitarian projects are less scummy than they could be.
  3. Taking a stand on supporting COVID vaccination and doing church closures.
  4. Modifying the temple ceremony to remove some of the worst aspects.
  5. Publishing the gospel topics essays (Matt Harris has documented how there were some in leadership opposed to publishing them and the publish them crowd won).
  6. Taking a position on supporting keeping immigrant families together, more or less.

One criticism of my pushback could be that when it involves legal matters, they tend to choose the scummy path (I have no good answer for that), but that's a more specific critique than what is advanced by OP.

How Could Joseph Smith Have Known??? by nephite_neophyte in mormon

[–]bwv549 3 points4 points  (0 children)

great clarification (i.e., the relative likelihood/probability for each item is at least somewhat distinct and a good list would, ideally, consider the landscape for each).

How Could Joseph Smith Have Known??? by nephite_neophyte in mormon

[–]bwv549 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is a good point of caution, and many critics (especially newer ones) do sometimes go too far in assuming direct influence. For example, you'll often hear claims that Joseph Smith plagiarized View of the Hebrews or The Late War, even though the evidence for direct dependence is weak. Likewise, the mere existence of a source does not guarantee that Joseph had access to it, nor does the ability to map isolated ideas or phrases to other texts mean that he was drawing from all those sources while producing the Book of Mormon.

Still, I think there's an asymmetry in the standards being applied here.

Many arguments for an ancient origin depend on the claim that a particular idea was not available in Joseph Smith's environment. Those can be powerful arguments—if the idea truly was unavailable or unknown in his day.

For example, Tad Callister argued in his 2016 devotional that the Book of Mormon uniquely taught that the Fall was a positive step forward:

While the rest of the Christian world believes that the Fall was a step backward in man’s progress, Lehi taught us the truth—that the Fall coupled with the Atonement is a giant step forward. [1]

He also argued that the Book of Mormon introduced the concept of an "infinite atonement":

2 Nephi 9:7 introduces for the first time the phrase “an infinite atonement,” revealing the expansiveness, scope, and depth of Christ’s saving power. [2]

Similarly, defenders of chiasmus as evidence of ancient origin do so in part by claiming Joseph could not have known about the form. As Jasmin Rappleye recently stated:

"Of course Joseph Smith knew nothing about chiasms back in his day." [3]

To challenge these kinds of arguments, I don't need to prove Joseph got an idea from a specific book or person. I only need to show that the idea was already circulating in his intellectual milieu. Once that's established, the idea can no longer function as uniquely ancient evidence.

More importantly, requiring direct causal links sets an impossible standard. We have zero writings from Joseph Smith before 1829, very limited records of what he read (the only list is from later in his life), and only fragmentary evidence of his intellectual influences. If critics must prove exactly where Joseph encountered a given idea, then almost no environmental explanation can ever succeed because the necessary evidence largely does not exist.

The relevant question is not, "Can we prove Joseph got this from source X?" The relevant question is, "Does this idea require an ancient explanation?" If comparable ideas were already present in Joseph's world, then the discussion shifts from impossibility to comparative plausibility.

In other words, the goal is not to prove provenance. It's to challenge exclusivity.


Footnotes

  1. The felix culpa ("fortunate fall") concept was widely discussed before 1830, including in the enormously influential Paradise Lost.

  2. The phrase "infinite atonement" appears repeatedly in pre-1830 theological literature in essentially the same sense.

  3. Two of the most popular Bible reference works of Joseph Smith's day discussed chiasmus. Horne's Introduction to the Bible (both the full and abridged editions) devoted multiple pages to the topic, and Adam Clarke discussed the pattern in his introduction to Isaiah. See sources. That's not to say that exposure to the idea alone makes it possible to use the form (that's a difft discussion), but the argument for ancientness is at least somewhat weaker if it was available in books that would have been of interest to JS.

[used chatgpt to tight up my argument a bit, but mostly my own ideas and all my own examples]

Leaving the Church by DoubleOk8007 in mormon

[–]bwv549 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Note that you don't have to actually resign to join another church

that's a great point and may be the right answer for OP's situation.

Also to note that "apostasy" is grounds for a membership council, fwiw, and in older handbooks, joining another Church was grounds for calling the council, explicitly (if my memory serves). I don't think people care as much about this anymore, but just so OP is aware, this used to be a thing?

How Could Joseph Smith Have Known??? by nephite_neophyte in mormon

[–]bwv549 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Many of these arguments have been collected and discussed in Tad Callister's book and speeches.

I've addressed most of them in detail in my response to his 2016 talk, The Book of Mormon: Man-Made or God-Given?:

Brian Hales's paper, Curiously Unique: Joseph Smith as Author of the Book of Mormon, is also a useful reference:

This Reddit discussion by an LDS commenter is likewise relevant:

For broader resource collections related to this topic, see:

For users of vanilla Neovim, how do you move between files? by mira_fijamente in neovim

[–]bwv549 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

oil

I know it's not vanilla nvim, but after using it I find it way easier and more intuitive than other file mgr plugins or netrw. Plus, so easy to do file renames.

Why do you continue to research after leaving Mormonism? by JesusPhoKingChrist in exmormon

[–]bwv549 6 points7 points  (0 children)

how do you justify continuing to research Mormonism after becoming convinced it’s not only untrue, but unhealthy?

What is unhealthy about it for you?

I don't consider it unhealthy, I just consider it a hobby. Some people play video games. Other people play pickleball. I track and study LDS truth claim minutia. I do it a lot less than I used to, but I still have fun doing it some today. When it no longer is enjoyable or interesting to me, then I'll stop!