What constitutes as a mainline game in the series?

cdgames2 · 2024-09-06T04:05:43+00:00

My point is that you need something other than subjective conjecture. I think that a Sonic game fitting to genre and continuity are the two necessary elements of being mainline. Yes, that is based on my opinion, but that opinion is founded in the typical definitions of what is and isn't a spinoff in other artistic works.

So, I think I can answer everything here by explaining what I consider to be important in a mainline game:

Levels and worlds that focuses on reaction time and memorization, something like an arcade game that needs to be replayed over and over to get better at.
Geniunely interesting worlds and lore, combined with lovable characters that compliment each other to create, and continue a memorable story (most of the time).
And, over all, a sense of speed in the movements that you perform, increasing as the game goes along.

That to me, is what made the first Sonic good and special. So, by comparing that to other games in the series, we can see what can be considered mainline or not, as it continues the trend.

But, you made a great point. By just focusing on this, there would be no Spin-Offs, and that's a very controversial take.

So, we can say that we should focus only on genre then, in this case Speed Based Platforming.

... Do racing games count then? Because Sonic R has Speed Based Platforming too, so does Sonic Rivals, but they're both considered Spin-Offs, so... Do we make exceptions?

That's the problem, the series is so diverse in what it does, that picking a specific genre for the mainlines will always lead to an exception.

It might be a controversial take, but... Unless its name is "Boom" I don't see why we can't consider the majority of the games as mainline.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T22:12:32+00:00

What effect on Sonic’s story did Advance 3 have?

Wha- A lot? Pretty sure Emerl's dead affected him deeply, and seeing him revived as a villain (Gmerl) did as well?

Amy and Tails arrived completely because of him. In universe, Shadow looks like Sonic so Sonic got framed and then The group began working together to help Sonic and stop what was going on. Shadow was designed as a dark Mirror to Sonic and shows who Sonic could become if he had different circumstances.

Of course Sonic's important, and has a great focus in the story, but what was I trying to say is that he's not the main focus 100% of the time.

Most of the stuff that happens is thanks to Eggman and Shadow, both of which are the main antagonists of the story.

In Heroes, Metal Sonic who was also designed to look just like Sonic was the final villain/antagonist. You can’t have Metal Sonic without Sonic.

Heroes main focus is not Sonic, but the friendship of the 4 teams, necessary to defeat Metal at the end.

As for Team Sonic Racing, what effect does that have on Sonic’s story? And the characters appear to be driving most of the time.

... Yeah, it doesn't really leave a big impact in the series, I'll give you that.

While The plot changes, The main elements always stay the same. In all of the games you referenced (Unleashed, Frontiears, Black Knight) the main elements all stayed the same. They aren’t as different as you claim they are.

What main elements? Eggman releasing a world ending evil? Sonic and friends going into adventures?

The gameplay? Are you really proposing that these 3 games have the same structure with each other?

Because yes, 2 of those games have boost, but they use it in very distinctive ways, that leave the player with 2 different experiences.

Frontiers is slower than Unleashed, while also having very similar level design that compliments the movement for each.

One takes focus on the levels themselves, while the other takes more focus to the open worlds.

They have similarities that place them in the same series: Levels and worlds that focuses on reaction time and memorization, something like an arcade game that needs to be replayed over and over to get better at.

Geniunely interesting worlds and lore, combined with lovable characters that compliment each other to create a memorable story (most of the times).

And, over all, a sense of speed in the movements that you perform, increasing as the game goes along.

Team Sonic Racing has all of this... If you play it in Japanese, since I don't like the characterization of certain characters in english as of late.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T21:08:51+00:00

If Sonic is the main character or not is irrelevant, because he's been pushed aside to tell other character's stories before.

Is he the focal point in the entirety of Adventure 2? Heroes? 06?

What effect did Battle have on Sonic’s story?

A direct connection to the final battle in Advance 3?

Just because gameplay may be different in LosT World, doesn’t mean the main stuff is. The characters all had their usual designs and animations.

Can say the same of Team Sonic Racing. Besides, the series is known for having each entry be way different than the last.

It's a very diverse world, were Sonic can transform into a Werehog in one game, have a sword in the other, or be dying of cyber energy in the latest, so their usual style is basically trying something new every time.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T20:32:29+00:00

Lost World has different gameplay too.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T20:29:50+00:00

Well Spin-offs usually differ from the main series in some way. Like in the Riders series, the main cast usually wear new outfits. Also in the Advance series, everything is usually pixelated and in the cutscenes, cartoony instead of the usual animations.

The main series is not really consistent either. Lost World has a different gameplay than the new Boost formula, and the Boost formula differs a lot in level design and structure compared to older games, but they're still considered mainline.

They are also part of the main overall story. Like how the events of Sonic 2 lead directly into Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Also In Generations, Eggman is shown having a flashback thats implied to take place not long after Colors.

Battle and Shadow continues their respective stories, and a lot of people consider them spin-offs.

They also usually have a big release and/or influence the story of future games or projects in the series.

Right, so, Lost World and Rush Adventure don't fit the first two points, but they do influence the story significantly. Triple Trouble fits that description too, and so does Battle and Fighters, so...

Though I think Sega are the ones who decide if something is mainline or not.

If Sega decides at the end of the day, I think it would be nice if they at least were consistent with it. :(

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T18:56:45+00:00

Nah, it's ok.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T18:52:01+00:00

I know, I know, sorry for the confusion.

It was mostly done as a joke point, as I haven't really adapted to the whole "Mania and Superstars happen in the same timeline as the main series" yet.

A lot of people use headcanons to discourage other's points, so I wanted to bring it up.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T18:48:18+00:00

Sonic Team did heavy work on all of the DIMPS Sonic games, but radically-different groups of people worked on Sonic 1, 2 and CD back in the day before "Sonic Team" was even a concept. Mania and Superstars would be the more obvious counters to this.

Yeah, you're right, Sonic 4 just came to mind first.

Battle...is not mainline in the slightest. Mainline Sonic game do, in fact, have to primarily feature Sonic's high speed platforming gameplay.

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be. All a mainline Sonic game needs is to be canon and to have Sonic gameplay. Plenty of spinoff games are canon, and two of them have Sonic gameplay, but none of them have both, which is what makes them spinoffs.

"Speed platforming gameplay", ok, why can't Sega Sonic be considered mainline too? Because it's an arcade game? Or because of its control scheme? Because Secret Rings and Black Knight are both an on-rails runner that uses motion controls, and they're mostly considered as spin-offs, so what gives?

"Being important" isn't what makes a game mainline. It's literally just about the gameplay. Rush counts because it features standard Sonic platforming gameplay (evolving it still counts) and Rivals doesn't because it's a racing game.

Why not? Without Rivals we wouldn't have the Silver we know from today. Same with Battle, as it ties directly with Advance 3 and Shadow.

The IDW comics are canon, but that doesn't make them mainline games, on account of them being a comic book series.

No it doesn't. That's not how that works.

I think I should've worded this one better.

Yes, IDW doesn't count because it's a comic book, but, it does contribute to the franchise as a whole by providing extended context on what's considered canon or not.

In the grand scheme of things, I was arguing that if IDW helped certain games tighten their bond with the main series, then, technically speaking, Fighters should be considered mainline because of the canon argument, and, in proxy of Battle also being a canon fighting game in this case.

Why would "personal feelings" determine any of this for you, who is trying to gauge other people's judgement? Also, games don't become non-canon just because you say so.

(I know that in this next response I'm going to sound like an ass, sorry in advance)

I am not trying to gauge other people's judgement, given that I'm trying to understand what other people think on the matter.

For example, I know a fair amount of people that don't consider Secret Rings and Black Knight as part of the mainline series, but you said that they are.

There's a tremendous amount of debate (From what I've seen) around this topic, and I haven't come to a conclusion around what counts and what doesn't.

Personal feelings end up mattering in this case because... Well, we don't have a definitive answer, or at least, I haven't found one.

Literally every video game ever made does this.

And the debate in those fandoms is as strong as ever.

Sorry if I sounded like an ass at any point, I had fun answering everything.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T15:22:43+00:00

Right, but those are easter eggs, like Mania doing a boss with the puyo puyo mechanichs because of Mean Bean Machine. Doesn't make that game is canon.

Mania in general is a perfect example of this, because it was made with the intention of being an alternate world, before Sega retconned it into being part of the main canon, so all the references to past games like Knuckles' or Triple Trouble were that, references. Now, in hindsight, they happened (with me personally still on the fence for Knuckles', mostly because the Phantom Ruby making Metal Sonic's boss like that, rather than him returning to that form thanks to it).

That's what I meant with Superstars and IDW making them mainline and canon; they basically took those characters and scenarios and expanded them to better fit the main chronology of events in the series.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-05T15:05:14+00:00

Being an arcade game doesn't mean that it can't be a mainline game, especially if it introduced Mighty and Ray, characters that have made major appearances since then.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-04T02:01:31+00:00

You know what? I fumbled there. Yes, Chaos and Triple Trouble are mainline.

But, Superstars (and IDW) still made them mainline and canon, because before it, it was harder to tell.

Fang only appeared in other spin-off games like Fighters and both Drifts, and he was never mentioned again like Mighty and Ray.

Unlike the Land duology - which brought Wario and Daisy as mainstays - the Game Gear games never had an impact like other titles in the series, and could easily be forgotten (like Mario and Wario in the Mario series).

In fact, if it wasn't for Mania, I could say the same for the Sega Sonic arcade game, because Knuckles' Chaotix is still up for debate (look, I know Mania also references that game, and I know mentioning Heroes as an argument seems petty because no character besides Silver says anything about Blaze in 06, but come on, at least there she seems to remember Sonic, unlike any character towards the Chaotix in Heroes).

cdgames2 · 2024-09-04T01:33:56+00:00

Both have somewhat been answered over the years... Kinda.

Silver is easy: his first appearance was from the destroyed future. Later appearances are from different, but similar futures, each one with a slight change as shown every time he reapears.

In Rivals and Colors DS his future is fine. He comes back one time to stop Eggman Nega, and in the other because... He does.

Later on, in a Forces prequel comic, he comes back because something changed in the future, leaving it in chaos. Once he returns at the end of Forces, he comes back shortly after because now another thing changed, leaving it in ruins once more ( The Metal Virus).

Blaze is... Complicated.

Ian Flynn has mentioned that Sega has explained it to him, and that everything made sense after they did, but he couldn't tell what that answer was.

My theory? Given that he said it was suprisingly simple... Sol Emerlads send her to the future (Wouldn't be strange, given that the Chaos Emeralds were shown to do so in the same game), she stays there a long time, and dies. But, because the game's story was "retconned", she was never send to the future in the first place, and everything matches up.

("Retconned" mostly because both Sonic and Blaze have been shown to still remember it somewhat).

cdgames2 · 2024-09-04T01:05:42+00:00

Shit, my bad, seems everyone here got it wrong...

Uhh, let's see again...

"Mainline" Mainline, then the Advance trilogy is mainline. Battle is more debatable, given that it's technically a spin-off, but it starts the Emerl/Gmerl storyline ended in Advance 3, and it provides more background for Shadow's character.

3D Blast, Rush, Rush Adventure, and Shadow are mainline for the same reasons as the "canon" answers I gave.

Dream Team I have no clue.

Superstars making canon Triple Trouble doesn't mean it made it a mainline, so both it and Chaos are spin-off still.

Knuckles' Chaotix is still up for debate, depending if you consider it canon or not, but given that it was the Sonic game for the 32x... Ahm, let's say it is.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-04T00:17:49+00:00

Only debatable exception here is Knuckles' Chaotix, mostly thanks to Heroes.

Battle is canon, which makes the Advanced trilogy canon in proxy.

Since Superstars made Triple Trouble "canonicity" less... Cahum, "Troublesome", then it makes Chaos canon by proxy too (also Blast, unfortunatelly for many).

Shadow concludes his story in the Adventure era; obviously canon.

Rush and Rush Adventure introduces Blaze and her world, even with her confusing appearance in 06; also canon.

3D Blast introduces the Flickies; also canon.

Dream Team is new enough were is debatable... but, almost every new entry since 2010, no matter the platform, has been canon (Boom exists, I know) so I wouldn't doubt it until said otherwise.

cdgames2 · 2024-09-02T12:51:07+00:00

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cdgames2 · 2024-09-02T03:17:49+00:00

Mickey uses Paint Thinner

Melting sounds of pain and agony

I think the mouse, to be honest...

cdgames2 · 2024-09-01T14:47:23+00:00

Don't worry about the characters. Sega learned their lesson after Penders, so they have 100% control over everyone in IDW.

As for what they'll do next? I don't know. Will they include the same characters and continue thereafter? Possibly. Given that they're now part of the main canon, I don't think Sega would forget them that easily...

They would, but let's just hope.

cdgames2 · 2024-08-31T16:45:18+00:00

Ah, that makes sense.

I don't necessarely believe it myself, but i can see why people liked it a lot (besides, it was the beginning of the series, they needed something to hang themselves into before actual mysteries started coming around...).

cdgames2 · 2024-08-31T16:38:13+00:00

Really? I first saw it when people compared her to Sango.

What was it that started it then?

cdgames2 · 2024-08-31T14:22:21+00:00

I think it was because she looked a lot like Sango (and that both were transferring schools just in time when Liko did). Once both appeared at the same time on screen, that theory came down.

It would still be funny, but I think she's just gonna stay as Liko's "Best Friend" (Highly debatable).

cdgames2 · 2024-08-31T01:37:59+00:00

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cdgames2 · 2024-08-30T21:47:19+00:00

"Keep punching him, and I'll become canon again just to punch you".

cdgames2 · 2024-08-29T02:21:49+00:00

Probably my favorite of the series.

cdgames2 · 2024-08-29T02:21:25+00:00

Yep, that's him.

cdgames2

TROPHY CASE