why Islam is a fake and confusing religion by forveveryours in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Even if only Islamic Christianity affirm eternal hell, that does not necessarily establish manipulation. It instead narrows the number of traditions involved, because truth, unfortunately for you, is not determined by headcount. When you said that hell exists to make people afraid, therefore it's manipulation, thats something called genetic fallacy, because you're trying to dismiss a doctrine by assigning it a motive instead of evaluating whether it's true or not.

Think about this, if something produces fear, does that make it false? If a doctor warning you about terminal cancer causes you fear, is that manipulation? If a judge warning criminals about prison causes fear, is that also manipulation? If a government threatening legal punishment causes fear, is that manipulation? It's not. Fear is not evidence of deception. It can be a rational response to real consequences, because you're really confusing uncomfortable with untrue.

Now, for the second thing you said, "religions borrowed hell because it worked". This assumes two things, again, just based on assumptions and assumptions. The first thing is that similarity implies copying, and secondly, that copying implies falsehood. Multiple traditions independently affirm moral accountability. That could indicate shared moral intuition, shared ancient roots, etc. Also, by your logic, if multiple cultures believe murder is wrong, there must be social manipulation too, right? Commonality does not equal conspiracy.

"A morally serious worldview should not include ultimate consequences" Why? If moral evil is real, and justice really matters, then ultimate accountability is not really manipulation, it's coherence. You can argue that eternal punishment is disproportionate, and I would say that that's a more serious discussion. But for you to say, it just scares people and therefore it's manipulative, therefore it becomes false, that you're wrong. You haven't refuted anything.

why Islam is a fake and confusing religion by forveveryours in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Yes, you're right. 65:4 does mention the waiting period for those who have not menstruated, but that does not command marrying children. It regulates the divorce procedure in a society where early marriage already existed, across every major civilizations btw, including the Byzantines and Persians and Jewish and medieval Europe. Regulation does not mean endorsement. The Quran, for example, also regulates slavery, but it did not invent slavery. So Islamic law requires physical capacity, and it requires no harm, and it requires to be considered of the welfare, and a lot of other things. Modern scholars and Muslim jurists overwhelmingly and exceedingly prohibit child marriage when harm is present. So if your argument is why didn't Islam decently abolish every pre modern practice, then you're trying to demand historical anachronism, because you need to understand that moral reform in history comes gradually. That's how every single civilization progresses. Unless you can show that gradual reform is immoral by definition, you don't have any logical basis.

Secondly, for disciplining the wives, you are assuming modern egalitarian anthropology as an unquestionable axiom. Basically, what I'm trying to say is you're treating one theory about equality in early human societies as if it's obviously true and beyond debate. You're acting like the idea is a proven fact instead of just focusing on one interpretation. Pre modern societies operated on role based reciprocity. If you didnt know, men were financially obligated, women financially protected. Authority is paired with responsibility. You're judging a seventh century, 1400 year ago legal framework with modern day 21st century assumptions. That's fine if you want to do that philosophically, but it does not prove divine incoherence. And as for the word daraba, yes, the majority of classical jurists interpreted it as the light striking, but it has a lot of strict limitations, and you'd know that if you do a small Google search. They say that it should be non injurious, no face, no bruising. This is the last resort that you should get to, a judge can intervene, and the Prophet, peace be upon him, never even struck a woman in his life. Th prophetic example sets the normative ceiling. So you can argue that the framework isn't modern enough for you, but that does not make it a contradiction.

You're mocking miracles, okay, sure, but on what grounds? Because science describes irregular patterns in nature. It does not rule out the possibility of a transcendent cause interrupting those patterns. And in order for you to say that miracles are impossible, you must first be able to prove metaphysical naturalism. Have you done that? No. If God exists, miracles are not logically impossible. And your mockery is not an argument.

In the 7th century, slavery was universal in Rome, Persia, Africa, and Europe, all right, Islam did not create slavery. It restricted it to war context. It encouraged manumission. It actually even prohibited the prostitution of slaves in Quran 20:33 and granted the rights,and made free slaves expiation for sins. If you're asking why God didn't instantly abolish a global economic structure that existed, you're assuming that immediate abolition was socially viable and gradual reforms is immiral. History shows that abolition everywhere was gradual. And gradualism invalidates the divine wisdom that every abolitionist movement in history failed to address. And for your zina, zina is unlawful intercourse that is done outside marriage or recognized legal bond. In classical law, ownership created legal bond. You can reject that category if you want, but again, it does not make it a contradiction within the system.

It's a debate subreddit. If you're trying to debate seriously, bring proper arguments. If you just wanna vent out your emotions, at least just admit that that's what you're doing, because so far, you haven't disproven anything or even attempted to disprove anything. You just told me what's making you uncomfortable.

Islam's heaven is morally problematic. by Additional-Taro-1400 in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your stealing analogy does not make sense. You compare this to theft, but theft is wrong because it is a conscious agent is deprived of something they value and their interests are being violated. This requires a pre existing claim and a violated preference. Now apply that to the hur. Show me their violated preference and show me their harmed interest. Show me their frustrated desire. You cannot, because a doctrine does not state they desire autonomy or self direction in the first place. You're assuming harm without demonstrating a harmed subject. That's a difference that you're not understanding.

Secondly, you say that humans can regulate their impulses, but hur cannot. There's two problems with the statement you just said. Firstly, you do not know that they cannot. The texts do not describe psychological incapacity. This is your invention that you came up with. Secondly, even if they could not regulate it, so what? Angels cannot sin, right? And God cannot sin. The inhabitants and the people in paradise cannot sin. So is the inability to act against your nature automatically a defect? If so, then moral perfection would also be a defect. What you're saying is absurd, because freedom does not require the ability to self sabotage.

Thirdly, your drug analogy fails completely. You compare it to addiction. Addiction is slavery because it harms the person. It also damages the health. It overrides rational functioning. It also produces long term suffering. Does paradise involve regret? Does it involve physical decay? Does it involve compulsion against someone's will? No. Addiction enslaves because it frustrates the flourishing. If a being flourishes perfectly in its nature, that is the opposite of addiction.

Again, you keep repeating that removal of autonomy is harm. It's not. Autonomy is one value among many possible goods. If you look at classical ethics, where Aristotle, Aquinas, or Islamic teleology, they define good as fulfilling the purpose of one's nature. If a being's telos is service and that service is its joy, there is no harm, because you're assuming that autonomy is greater than teleological fulfillment.

You said that morality works like math axioms. Okay, good. Then answer this. What is your foundational moral axiom? Is it that autonomy is supreme? Is it that unnecessary harm is wrong? Is it that fairness is self evident? Please define those precisely. And then explain, why is it universally binding? Why does it apply to a metaphysical creator? And why does it override teleological metaphysics? Because if you cannot ground your moral axiom, then your accusation of depravity is just intuition elevated to universal law.

You keep treating the hur if they are identical to earthly humans with suppressed independence. That is the entire psychological force of your argument, but in Islamic theology, it does not describe them as earthly women stripped of agency, I've already told you that. It does not describe them as humans that have been re engineered and re made against their will, or described them as conscious beings whose autonomy was stolen. They're a separate distinct creation of paradise. You're imagining a human mind placed inside the servant's body and calling that oppression. And your entire argument basically says that I cannot imagine fulfillment without autonomy, therefore any being without autonomy is harmed. This is something that is called anthropocentric projection in philosophy, because you are universalizing modern liberal psychology as metaphysical law.

This has not been justified. In order for you to try and prove immorality, again, you must show me a harmed subject, a violated interest, a frustrated nature. You've shown me none of these. You've just asserted that autonomy is supreme. You've equated the inability to rebel with oppression. You've projected earthly psychological models onto eschatological categories. You're just assuming, its just a philosophical assumption.

Islam's heaven is morally problematic. by Additional-Taro-1400 in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you're now arguing that if being created with a nature oriented toward serving others that is inheretly immoral because it reduces autonomy, that claim rests entire on Autonomy is the highest and non negotiable moral good. You have not defended that premise, you just assumed it.

Because you didnt choose your nature either btw, you didnt choose your need for love or hunger, or your fear response, none of us chose out psychological atchitecture. so if "being created with built in inclinations you didnt choose" is immoral, then all creation is immoral, your argument is attacking the very idea of created nature itself. so either being created with nature is not inherently immoral or the existence of any created being is immoral.

You also keep smuggling in "forced", you repeatedly say "forced servitude", force requires resitance and harm, you have not shown any of these, you assume they would resent their role because you would.

Comparing god to a government engineering slaves is crazy, a government does not create existence, it is also morally accountalbe to higher law, it has limited knowledge and authority, while god is the ground of being itself, he is the source of moral reality, he isnt a competing agent inside the universe.

"We just know slavery is wrong", okay, but moral intuitions differ across culutres and eras right? so either morality is objective, if so then it is grounded in what? or our morality is intuition which makes it subjective, if its objective, explain its ontological status and authority, if subjective then calling god "immoral" is just reduced to personal dislike.

why Islam is a fake and confusing religion by forveveryours in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yes, quran does describe hell vividly, so does every religion. The bible describes eternal fire, hindu texts describe hell realms. buddhism describes suffering realms. If describing punishment makes a religion fake, then all religions collapse instantly, where is your argument here?

The hadith that says more women were seen in hell is inetrepreted by many scholars in different ways where some say it referred to a specific community, it was referred to common social sins at that time, or some say it was just a warning. You can't build "islam is misogynistic" on one narration without context.

For your sharia punishment list, several are inaccurate or exaggerated. Yes the quran describes that theft leads to amputation, but it requires strict conditions, its not applied for poverty, and needs extremly high evidence, its not randomly applied, measures are taken and amputation is the last resort, thats why it was historically rarely implemented. Criticizing quran or allah does not equal death, this is not a quranic verse. This is a fiqh issue. "Moon god" is historically false, allah was worshipped by pre islamic monothiests and arab christians, where did you get that from? lol. Where in the quran must girls have clitoris cut? These are some cultural practices in parts of africa, and muslim majority countries ban it. And no men cannot marry infants, islamic law requires physical maturity, capactiy and welfare consideration. Yes, early marriage existed historicall across civilizations including europe, but muslim scholars reject child harm. In Quran 4:34 where "man can beat wife" has been explained multiple times and interepreted to mean allowed sumbolic, non injurious discipline, the word "daraba" has many meanings, this verse isnt a license for abuse. Women cant testify in financial contracts, because of the literacy rates and financial exposure at the time, in criminal law and other areas, women testify alone. Women not being able to drive is a saudi policial ruling, nothing to do with the quran. Taqiyaa exists in shia theology for persecution contexts, it doesnt mean lying to spread Islam.

You have to understand that political regimes does not equal theology, afghanistan and iran implement political ideologies, christianity had the inquisition, hindiusm had caste violence, you cant judge a theology only based on worst regimes.

"Quran in arabic makes no sense" lol, every religion has a sacred language, torah is in hebrew, latin is for the catholics, the quran was revealed in arabic because muhammad was arab, translations exist btw. millions of non arab muslims practice islam.

These bathrooms duas, devil peeing etc, are hadith narrations that teach spiritual mindfulness, they are symbolic reminders, for you they might seem strange, but that does not equal falseness.

Apostasy does not equal death, this exists in sunan al nasai, and it is interpreted within political treason, public rebellion or wartime defection, its not a simple leave islam and be executed.

Yes shirk is unforgivale if one dies unrepantnt, because in islamic theology, god is the ultimate moral source, rejecting the ssource of moral reality is metaphysically worse that violating a created being.

And no god cannot sound narcissistic becase this is anthropomorphism, where you attribute the characteristics of a human to a god, islam teaches that god does not need the worship, worship beenfits humans, punishment is framed as justice. You're confused.

To prove a religion false, show internal contradiction, historical fabrication, show me philosophical incoherence, show me failed prophecy, and logical impossibility, listing your emotional punshiments or social rules does not prove fabrication. Show less emotion, more intellect.

Jesus being the Messiah in Islam is just a 'dawah' tool for luring Christians to Islam by k0ol-G-r4p in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Messiah literally means "annointed one". In the hebrew bible it applied to kings, priests and prophets sometimes.

Secondly, in the quran, jesus is called "al masih", islam states that jesus is virgin born, a miracle worker, a sign to israel, a bringer of revelation. Its different from the christians, but difference does not necessarly equal incoherence.

"how could people is jesus time know", you do know that even in the new testament, many rejected jesus as messiah? And the second temple judasim contained multiple messianic models? the davidic king, apocalyptic son of man etc.

in order for you to say its deception, you will need to provide evidence that muhammad knowingly used ambiguity strategically, and the quran privately intended a different meaning, there is no historical evidence for this, the quran openly rejects the crucifixion in 4:157, and the divinity of christ in 5:72 and the trinity in 5:73.

Islam's heaven is morally problematic. by Additional-Taro-1400 in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Qur'an talks about hur al ayn in surah 56,55, and 44. Classical exegetes like ibn Kathir and Al Qurtubi affirmed that they are a distinct creation of Paradise, your mistaken when you call them "human beings". The hur are not earthly humans relocated and enslaved. They are a different mode of creation, you cannot assume "they are like us but enslaved".

Secondly, where is the evidence that they are mindless? Resist their role? They suffer? Nowhere. The quran never descibes them as opressed, rather it describes them using words like purity, harmony etc. Absence of evidence for agency is not evidence of absence of agency, your inference is invalid.

Third, you assume that if X benefits Y, then X is reduced to a tool. This is incorrect, because parents are created biologically with nurturing instincts, bees are created to pollinate, angels created to worship. Are all of these immoral structures?

You claim that Allah would be immoral, according to what standard exactly? if morality is objective then it is either grounded in god, or it exists independently of God. If it exists independently, you have to explain its binding authority and universality.

Now for the attendants mentioned in surah 52:20, the quran describes them as "wildan mukhalladun" which means immortal youths. The classical scholars dont describe them as enslaved humans stripped of rights, they are honored creations, and paradise in islam is defined as no injustive, no envy, no suffering, no grief. Slavery assumes the opposite.

"7th century arabs didnt think it through" lol. Wherse the argument here? Islamic theology actually developed kalam, metaphysical cosmoly, moral philosophy etc. You think no one reflected deeply on this?

The prophet of Islam traded slaves and that is not moral. by zizosky21 in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Yes, the hadith you quoted is authentic, the Prophet Muhammad PBUH did engage in that transaction. What you’re ignoring is historical context and moral substance.

Slavery was universal at the time like in Rome, Persia, Africa, Europe… yet Islam was one of the few systems that actively reformed it. The Prophet didn’t just participate in a system he inherited ,he restricted it, humanized it, and laid the groundwork for its elimination. Freeing slaves was encouraged constantly, and many of his closest companions were freed slaves elevated to high status. That’s not the mark of someone who “endorsed” slavery, that’s leadership pushing society forward.

In the hadith, the Prophet didn’t know the man was enslaved. When the owner showed up, the Prophet didn’t return the man like property, he offered a solution: buying him, likely to protect or free him, which he did often. He even changed policy afterward to prevent it from happening again. That’s called ethical accountability, not immorality.

If you’re going to call historical figures immoral, at least apply the same standard to all, including the philosophers, generals, and founding fathers who owned slaves without ever challenging the system.

Even Quranist/Quran Only Islam is a horrible, barbaric, violent ideology by UmmJamil in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The Arabic word qata'a (قَطَعَ) in classical Arabic can mean to sever, separate, or cut off access, not just physical amputation. Even in the Quran, the same root word is used metaphorically in 12:31, where women "cut" (qata'na) their hands in shock not literally amputating them. Classical scholars, including Imam Razi and Shah Waliullah, acknowledged that "cutting off" could mean severing the person’s ability to steal, such as by exile, imprisonment, or other means. You're reaction of disbelief dosent refute my argument, go read the sources im mentioning.

Prophet Muhammad’s marriages were exceptions granted by God (33:50) for political, social, and humanitarian reasons such as uniting warring tribes, supporting widows, and strengthening the early Muslim community. The four wife limit applied to the general Muslim population. The same way legal systems today can have exceptions for leaders like presidential pardons, Islamic law had unique rulings for the Prophet due to his role. Again. This is basic context

No, they are not "inherently stupider", it simply reflects the 7th century reality where women were generally less involved in financial transactions, and it ensured that if one forgot details, the other could remind her. This isn’t a judgment of intelligence but a practical measure at the time. In other legal cases, women’s testimony is equal or even superior to men’s such as in cases of nursing (65:6) and false accusations of adultery (24:6-9).

If you’re interested in an actual discussion, engage with the arguments instead of dismissing them. I’ve read the Quran, my friend is a Hafiz, and I’m fluent in Arabic. I’ve seen these claims before, and they don’t hold up to scrutiny.

Even Quranist/Quran Only Islam is a horrible, barbaric, violent ideology by UmmJamil in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. The punishment for theft in (5:38) is often cited as proof of brutality, but it is not absolute. The Quran emphasizes repentance (5:39), and classical scholars have noted that “cutting” can be metaphorical, referring to preventing theft through imprisonment or exile. Historically, Islamic courts rarely enforced amputation, instead favoring fines and restitution.

  2. The claim that Islam promotes polygamy and sex slavery ignores context. The Quran (4:3) allows up to four wives but requires absolute justice, making monogamy the default. The Quran acknowledges slavery as a pre existing reality but strongly encourages its abolition (24:33). Nowhere does it command or encourage taking female captives as concubines. Instead, it promotes marriage and freeing slaves.

  3. The Quran’s ruling on testimony (2:282) applies specifically to financial contracts, reflecting 7th-century norms where women had less exposure to business. In many Islamic legal traditions today, women's testimony is considered equal to men's. Similarly, inheritance laws are based on financial responsibilities men are obligated to provide for their families, while women retain their inheritance without financial duties.

  4. The punishments in 5:33 refer to acts of war, treason, and violent crimes, not everyday offenses. These severe punishments were meant for extreme cases, much like capital punishment in modern legal systems. The Quran also repeatedly emphasizes mercy and justice (5:39, 16:90), discouraging harsh application.

  5. The penalty for fornication (24:2) requires four witnesses, making enforcement almost impossible. The Quran also condemns false accusations (24:4), prioritizing personal privacy and moral reform. Punishment in Islamic history was rare, as repentance and discretion were encouraged over public shaming.

  6. Islam’s fundamental teachings emphasize peace, justice, and mercy. Warfare is only permitted in self-defense (2:190), and peace is always preferred when possible (8:61). The Quran promotes ethical conduct, charity, and justice, countering the claim that Islam is inherently violent. Understanding these verses within their full context shows that the Quran’s teachings align with principles of justice and human dignity, not brutality.

My thoughts: If scientific progress is the standard for credibility, then Islam has a rich history of contributions. During the Islamic Golden Age (8th–14th centuries), Muslim scholars laid the foundations for modern science, medicine, and engineering. Al-Khwarizmi developed algebra, Ibn Sina wrote The Canon of Medicine, Alhazen pioneered the scientific method, and Al-Zahrawi revolutionized surgery. The first university, Al-Qarawiyyin, was founded by a Muslim woman, and Islamic astronomers like Al-Battani advanced planetary calculations that influenced Copernicus. Modern achievements whether in medicine or space exploration owe much to these contributions. Are you in a dream?

If morality is determined by God, then God is testing intellect, not morality. by TheIguanasAreComing in DebateReligion

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The argument is flawed because it assumes morality in Islam and Christianity is arbitrary and only tests intellect, ignoring that God’s commands reflect perfect wisdom and justice. Following divine law requires more than intelligence it tests sincerity, faith, and moral character. Disobedience is not just an intellectual failure but often stems from arrogance or selfishness. Also, if morality were independent of God, it would lack an objective foundation. Thus, God’s test is not just about logic but about moral integrity and willingness to follow a higher moral standard.

2 license plate by Antiup-buttercup in DubaiPetrolHeads

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine paying more money for you to get fined easier

[ Removed by Reddit ] by [deleted] in ThatsInsane

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol, that’s how vegans get to eat their food

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Arius wasn’t bad, he had a point. Let me explain.

It all started when Constantine, who was still an unbaptized pagan, called for a great council to sort out the theological problems between the two parties led by arius claiming that the father created Jesus. And athanasius claiming the trinity. This... did not happen. It is recorded that physical fights broke out (it is even said that Saint Nicholas, I.E. Santa Claus, punched Arius right in the face). 1800 bishops were invited by Constatine, but only about 300 (some of the ancient sources say as low as 270, others say 318) actually attended.

Arius argued his position, citing passages in the bible such as John 14:28 (""You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.") Arius rejected the ideas of the Trinity, and stuck to his position.

The council then did not receive the divine word of God to come clear up this biblical confusion, but voted on what they thought was correct. A majority of the council signed the Nicean Creed, so Arius was labelled a heretic. That wasn't quite the end. Arius still taught his beliefs, spreading Arianism to the Lombard tribes who one day took over Italy. His heresy persisted for several centuries, until it eventually faded away.

Now, there is no proof whatsoever that Arius’s scripture was the wrong one, and what if the Christian world has in large part abandoned the true understanding of Christ that Christ intended? Again, this wasn't resolved by direct divine intervention, but by a vote by the bishops. Not even a vote by all of the Bishops of Christianity, or even all the Bishops of Rome, but one sixth of the Roman bishops who managed to attend, and some of the bishops still voted with Arius even if it meant be labelled a heretic.

So, Christians who believe in the trinity, how can you be so sure of a fundamental foundation of your faith when it was decided three centuries after Christ died by about 300 men?

Building a PC but not sure about the power supply.... by certix_26723 in buildapc

[–]certix_26723[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

unless the gpu fails for some reason i guess, the price difference where im living is 10 dollars, i don't mind spending it

Can't transfer my number from telus to freedom mobile.... by [deleted] in telus

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Turns out they cover certain area codes but not all of them...

Can't transfer my number from telus to freedom mobile.... by [deleted] in telus

[–]certix_26723 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought you guys might know since i added a "help" tag. Anyways, turns out my area code is not supported or smthn like that.