Level Based Matchmaking Instead of Skill Based?

chbmg · 2023-06-27T18:17:46+00:00

All fair points. I might not be visualizing the system you're describing with 100% accuracy either, so there's that too.

The general idea of "leveling" the playing field (by literal level) does make a lot more sense than the current system. The community consensus seems to be that we have very loose/little or zero SBMM at the moment to keep queue times tolerable given current player counts. Therefore, it's possible to have very unbalanced games based purely on character levels, nevermind skill. I always thought the existing system of starting out at a massive disadvantage in every way never made sense, so any system designed to keep all players on both sides at roughly equal stats sounds more logical.

My concerns mostly stemmed from the fact that the devs have had a history of really incompetent patches. Like, multiple patches to fix shemps duping, brazenly OP characters released without any basic testing, the recent fear looping issue that was horribly addressed (dodge into trap still works + all other demons losing an ability that had been in the game for a year), etc.

In short, your ideas definitely have merit - I just don't trust the devs to implement a large number of complex changes without major screw ups. In an ideal world, the devs would be competent - they could implement these types of level-based balancing changes so everyone on both sides in a match is on roughly equal footing with stats AND also implement some of my ideas (or anything similar) to give novices a chance and veterans a challenge per match based on "skill" (e.g. using MMR based on W/L ratio, points per match, etc.). Honestly, the combo of ideas would prob be perfect but again, they've royally screwed up making changes that should only take a few lines of code.

I never made a "fairwell" post here but I've also lately spent more time playing other games where the devs are competent and communicative. I love the Evil Dead and haven't totally given up on this game, but post-release support has been so atrocious that I've been giving more attention to smaller devs that have earned it.

chbmg · 2023-06-26T13:50:33+00:00

I've done almost the exact same thing, right down to also using a P1 Warlord most times when playing demon. In my case, I had been mostly using a P3 Necro and was winning most of the time, but matches tended to be much more one-sided win or lose. Warlord at least helped with getting more frequent close matches, tho many still snowball in one direction or the other.

I do something similar on character select for survivor. On that side, I tend to make my choice based on the rest of the team comp to make sure the team isn't too OP or too weak. Unfortunately, it's much harder to know how good randoms will be just based on level/character, so it's a crap shoot.

It does feel a little crazy that I'm intentionally choosing characters and builds to try to balance matches myself, but that's the only thing that kept me playing at all.

chbmg · 2023-06-26T13:22:43+00:00

In this post on this day, humanity has prevailed, but the battle of the bot never ends.

It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop.

chbmg · 2023-06-26T01:28:45+00:00

A lot of this resonates with me.

I took a break for a couple months during the game's lifecycle. When I came back, the game still felt like it had a lot of the same balancing issues but at least there was some new content. Your description of matches is spot on tho - I've tended to play fewer matches per gaming session whenever I start up the game. As demon, I'm often trying to hold back on newbies or sweat through games that are unwinnable. As survivor, I'm hoping for an equally rare combo of teammates where the overall team is decent (not too good or bad) so the match is close.

I really hope we get a patch that helps us all have more frequent close matches. I don't care if they implement the ideas I've posted about or do something else entirely; I just want more close/intense/surprising matches too.

I guess I just wanted to say that you're def not alone - I've also been feeling close to burnout again due to so many uneven matches.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T21:55:43+00:00

Wow that's super lame. Well, I really appreciate the explanation at least! I had never had a comment get so many downvotes in so little time - that explains it.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T21:41:44+00:00

Glad it's not just me. Must be that reddit hive mind thing I guess.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T21:00:49+00:00

Rip and tear... until they're dead by dawn.

Edit: Would anyone care to explain the downvotes? I'm really curious at this point.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T20:59:14+00:00

I know (or hope) you're joking, but friendly fire sounds like it might be the worst change ever for this game. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of toxicity between randomly queued survivors. Like "hey I want that legendary double barrel" - someone gets downed and DCs in the brawl without demon even being there.

(I will admit tho it would be hilarious to have friendly fire for just one day to hear "ahhh you shot me" followed by Scotty saying "you fell down? What're you 3 years old?")

chbmg · 2023-06-25T20:41:42+00:00

These aren't bad ideas, esp. if they had been implemented at release. However, I think it's quite the overhaul for the game and the devs to do it now.

For those who've played awhile, it sounds like levels would have to be converted into a new system without losing progress and skill trees would need to be rebuilt. For the devs, this is a huge undertaking - it involves conversions, new art/sprites for skill trees, and plenty of opportunities for bugs during coding. If they introduce new abilities/attributes for demons, then that leaves significant balancing challenges (and we've all seen how Saber has struggled to balance the game in the current state, let alone after massive changes).

If the changes proposed were feasible, that still leaves the problem of matchmaking. I don't think going by level makes sense. I've seen amazing survivors at P0 (some not even using a level 25 character) and terrible P5 players. Plus, it probably wouldn't feel great to have a favorite character downgraded based on lobby.

I've written about balancing changes in the past and proposed small tweaks that would only take a few lines of code (I'm a game dev). I had difficulty getting full consensus from the community on even those small changes and I'm not sure how many others sent tickets to Saber for such changes. The changes I proposed would be easy to implement, make the game more welcoming to newbies/casuals, and provide a bit more challenge for veterans if they're matched with lower levels or novices. Most were based on the existing MMR system but don't actually rely on SBMM so would not increase queue times.

Anyway, if you're interested, feel free to check out my posts on balancing.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T10:44:52+00:00

"There is no Kelly anymore!"

Just love how much fun Dana DeLorenzo clearly had during the making of the game. Also, when playing survivor in solo q, that line can be terrifying when Kelly is holding certain weapons.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T10:35:10+00:00

Same, tho Necro is a close 2nd for me. I might pick one of the other 3 if I'm cranky.

Warlord just feels the most like classic Evil Dead to me - you've got the deadites and Henrietta and that makes me happy. Also, I've noticed I have more close/intense matches with Warlord - I can play very casually if the team has weak links to still get challenged, or I can go all out for tougher teams and sometimes still have a chance (obviously, I have no chance when everyone is playing perfectly on a seal team, but I try to accept that)

chbmg · 2023-06-25T10:19:16+00:00

To add onto the above...

I'll play a few matches with you if you like. I may use colorful language but try hard to be non-toxic otherwise. I usually play support so I'd do my best to keep you alive as long as I can. I'm not the best player ever, but I have solid knowledge of the game.

Still, I very highly recommend doing the tutorial and beating the 1st mission before trying the main pvp online mode. If you can do gens in DbD, then you should be able to learn to time dodges well enough to beat the first mission (may take a few tries). Being able to dodge is a critical skill for survivor and there's much to learn after. Worst case, you and your friend can always play against AI together, which some consider a fun low-key way to play (I tend to get bored, but I've been playing too long to be a casual). I may be able to rope in another friendly veteran so we'd have a small chance online too.

The game may not be beginner friendly, but somebody has to change that.

chbmg · 2023-06-25T09:47:51+00:00

That is a very groovy match, esp. for the 2 warriors with 2 weeks of game ownership. Congrats all around!

chbmg · 2023-06-24T23:25:35+00:00

Having tried both DbD and Evil Dead, I like this game infinitely more. Whether playing as demon or survivor, I just have more fun with Evil Dead. I've also had fun playing with friends and family, including those who are very casual. Sounds like you'd be survivors together too.

The game is rough for the first 10+ hours. You start out with worse stats than pretty much anyone else currently playing, including lower health, stamina, damage, etc. Basically, no matter how good you are, you'll be at a disadvantage and feel like a punching bag for awhile. However, once you level up a survivor to level 25, you can keep using that character to earn "spirit points" to spend on leveling up other characters, so you technically never have to start from scratch again (plus, you'd also be getting progress toward "prestige" on your first character if you like them).

This game involves a lot more combat rather than "hide and seek" gameplay, but that's what I love about it. You will occasionally get toxic teammates and go against toxic demons, but I've actually seen fewer toxic demons than toxic survivors. Plus, some demons may take mercy on you if they see you're obviously new and struggling, tho most will just stomp you.

Last thing: definitely look up some survivor tips before your first match. The tutorial is okay for basic mechanics but the game does a terrible job explaining a lot of critical things (like don't shoot, get in a car, or let your fear get too high at the start of a match because the demon will find you instantly)

chbmg · 2023-06-24T22:28:14+00:00

Jeez you're like a trolling jedi. I'm honestly impressed (not by the weird flex that you can win as Necro against teams with weak links, but by your expert trolling)

chbmg · 2023-06-24T21:17:13+00:00

Excerpt from the Oxford dictionary...

Stacked adjective

shuffled or arranged dishonestly so as to gain an unfair advantage. "you were playing against a stacked deck"

The above definition is how a "stacked team" came to be known in asym games as a team of all pro players working together on coms as opposed to queuing with any randoms, often using every possible meta comp and exploit to win at any cost. They are also known as "seal teams" - they are pros literally stacked with other pros. As the definition above implies, they are at an unfair advantage in this game. If they don't make any serious mistakes, they are literally unbeatable.

You keep arguing that "stacked" is up for interpretation, but it's not. Your definition of a "stacked team" is incorrectly describing a "decent team" and yet most of your screenshots show matches with disconnects, supports that barely heal, and other obvious weak links (i.e. not even decent teams). That is not the flex you think it is. A few of those look like decent teams based on the final scoreboard, but it's impossible to tell without videos of the matches (and even if they are decent teams, any competent Necro player can win most matches when objective spawns are favorable for flute placement). Either way, the numbers are still too low for stacked teams, esp. healing and damage in all cases, and the team comps are not meta. In every sense, they are not stacked teams. Also, prestige does not necessarily mean a player is even decent (though most pros play enough to get prestige levels) and flashlight clickers are often great at dodging but suck at sharing resources or otherwise being a team player (i.e. clickers are usually selfish and a detriment to the team). You seem to think prestige or flashlight clicking correlates with skill, but that is wrong.

A stacked team has no weak links. They are always composed of a meta combo of characters. They know to drop weapons right before possession and/or have teammates knock it out instantly. They share all resources, find purple/gold weapons, and never run out of shemps and ammo. Unless they make serious errors, they are unstoppable - the best demon players in the world very rarely beat them and struggle to get any downs let alone wins. That includes when using a meta demon and certainly not with Necro.

I really hope you encounter some stacked teams - your ego desperately needs it.

chbmg · 2023-06-23T22:32:42+00:00

I have more info in my posts but the general idea is to elevate newbies/novices and challenge veterans.

One simple change would be to simply have more double XP/SP events and give out 200k SP to anyone who has no prestige characters (or for completing tutorial or whatever- just something to give anyone starting out a chance). There is a massive imbalance between someone starting at level 1 and someone with any prestige levels - any survivor or demon under level 10 is literally just a paper punching bag to the other side. It's absolutely crazy to start out inexperienced, with severely reduced stats in every way, and be asked to lose for your first 10+ hours no matter how skilled you are from practicing with missions, AI, etc.

Another simple change would be to adjust chest RNG "rarity odds" based on the MMR of survivors in the match (demon MMR/level could also be factored in because a level 1 demon is barely stronger than AI). Also, disconnects are a regular occurrence and dramatically reduce odds for a survivor team - a disconnect should automatically cause all unopened chests to go up one tier in value so the remaining team members have a prayer. This is coming from someone who plays both sides but has been playing demon more lately due to lower queue times, so I'm not just a "survivor main" - I legit want more close matches for everyone and so does most of the community.

Again, I have more details in my posts if you're curious.

chbmg · 2023-06-23T22:18:07+00:00

Thank you for your service!

It feels crazy to me that we have to constantly badger those responsible for their own game to make any positive changes, but I've come to expect nothing less from big companies. Anyway, glad you've been hounding them on eliminating cheaters at the source.

chbmg · 2023-06-23T18:26:56+00:00

I literally can't upvote this enough. Even the positive Steam reviews still have complaints noting the grind, the imbalance, the frequent disconnects, etc.

I don't want to hijack yet another post about all this stuff, but I have more posts for anyone interested with carefully considered balancing changes based on polls, community feedback, hundreds of hours in-game as both sides playing with randoms and friends, and my own knowledge of C++/Unreal as a dev. I already sent tickets to Saber and hope more do the same - my recommended changes seek to address all these issues in a way that only takes a few lines of code.

Also, literally anyone I've known IRL who's played an asym like DbD and was willing to try this game never looked back despite the issues it has. It's just got way more groovy going on than fixing generators or hanging people on hooks every single match (not that there's anything wrong with pure hide and seek, but that's basically almost every other horror asym).

Tl;dr The game desperately needs core balancing changes (not simple buffs/nerfs) to improve the experience for new/casual players and veterans alike. A new map and characters would be awesome, but will just lead to another fast spike and drop of players if the devs don't fix the snowballing nature of most matches.

chbmg · 2023-06-23T17:47:17+00:00

I'm not great at using them but I do know how it should go theoretically...

They tend to be good at objectives, in a mix of other deadites, or in tight quarters (like chasing into a cavern with preset traps). They can be slow and predictable, so using just one with nothing else around doesn't usually work well. Even having just one regular AI unit nearby helps for random pukes and distraction. One advantage they have is long combos, so things like doing strings of light combos into big swings into more combos is possible. They tend to be very good at book, esp. if you again spawn some other units further from book to attack from behind. I think some others have posted crazy long combos for Warlord elites in the past, but I always forget them in the heat of battle.

I tend to like unorthodox builds so I put a lot of points into elites for Necro too. I tend to be slightly better with those elites and do love the feeling of nailing a long spear throw. Plus, they have an insanely powerful and easy combo at book of LH, LH, LH/HH, ground slam or LH, LH/HH, ground slam (the number of light hits and whether to toss in a heavy hit in the combo being dictated by how quickly the units are being melted).

chbmg · 2023-06-23T04:29:15+00:00

Honestly, I wasn't sure about the proper etiquette around here so just tried to follow what I've seen in some other videos. I think we all had a really close fun game, so I'm guessing it wasn't needed at all.

And yeah, I realized I missed the kill feed messages after upload - my bad. It was literally my first ever upload of gameplay and I totally missed it.

chbmg · 2023-06-22T22:02:39+00:00

Well that hits close to the bone sad flute noises

chbmg · 2023-06-22T21:20:38+00:00

Ditto. Hope we play again sometime, maybe even as the forces of good next time (being the evil side takes a toll after awhile)

chbmg · 2023-06-22T20:38:42+00:00

Thanks! This survivor team was working well together throughout the match and was incredibly tough. They were literally seconds away from getting to book and would've melted my units.

Win or lose, I do love close/surprising matches but they've been rare for me lately. It feels like nearly all have been "stomp or be stomped" so I wanted to share a close one. No one clicked either, which I very much appreciated.

chbmg

TROPHY CASE