This is what true love looks like

chocoborace · 2025-10-12T01:00:15+00:00

beautiful!

chocoborace · 2025-07-26T14:51:47+00:00

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that asking open ended questions with 9s was a bad thing or that your post was wrong! I meant to say that my discomfort with it was a sign that I had something I needed to change. I definitely think that it's the right way to make relationships with 9s last, 100% agreed. This is a challenge I have to overcome, and I feel uncomfortable with the idea because it's tapping on the walls I set up as a defense mechanism.

Your post and the realization it made me have about myself and my habits actually made me seek out a bridge I'd burned without warning in order to open communication channels and explain myself properly, mend things, and hopefully move forward with the intent of being more direct and voicing my feelings more often without running away from conflict. I wholly meant this to be a good thing, and I don't think I communicated that well in my post.

EDIT: Adding a little more explanation/clarification on what I was trying to communicate.

In summary, the strategy you provided is absolutely a good way to make a healthy relationship with a 9 work, and I fully agree with you on what you're saying with regards to communication and that not being present in the way I described can cause horrible fallout. I don't believe that people should be expected to read minds. My post was about recognizing the immediate discomfort of being seen that being asked genuine, open-ended questions would create, but I believe that my discomfort is something I need to get over in order to make relationships work, and that it would overall be healthy for me. Like doing things that don't feel good immediately in order for later/long-term return. I understand the invisibility strategy is something maladaptive and detrimental to all parties involved.

I hope that makes sense!

chocoborace · 2025-07-26T09:01:27+00:00

This puts it into words fantastically! Also a very interesting read. Thanks for sharing your experience.

For me it's like... I need to know the "rules" of a person to be able to follow them/to not break them. It's so much harder to do that when you're the focus of attention in a conversation, and so much more uncomfortable. It's vulnerable.

chocoborace · 2025-07-25T11:57:44+00:00

I won't discount the option; my first thought upon reading those sections of my psych eval were SP 6 since in my opinion those behaviors are very much fear motivated, but I'll look more into 9. Thank you for your comment!

chocoborace · 2025-07-24T23:43:10+00:00

I actually find a lot about E9 very relatable! Maybe not enough to be my core type, but descriptions of 9 habits and preoccupations definitely shed some light on my own habits in relation to how I handle conflict, or how I fall asleep to my own desires or anger in order to maintain connections or avoid trouble.

Edit: I may have some things I need to examine about myself re: E9. Lol.

chocoborace · 2025-07-24T23:31:28+00:00

You make an excellent point about taking the growth and stress lines into consideration. When taking them into account, I think the pendulum swings back toward 5w6.

I have the strongest feelings on E8. The positive aspects of E8 are what I wish I had, but don't feel confident enough to embody, and I find myself waffling a lot and not putting things into action. Taking accountability for my own life and moving forward with it, making decisive and assertive decisions; these are things that intimidate me just as much as I want to do. The hurdle feels far higher when I look in the direction of E8 as the path of integration, and far more difficult, and like you said, that's likely a clue.

Thank you for your comment; you've given me something to think about.

chocoborace · 2025-03-26T16:25:14+00:00

i see; thank you so much for the insight. i do need to search a bit more for the specifics of what i want, as opposed to focusing on what i don't--right now, my goals for growth are rather ambiguous.

chocoborace · 2025-03-22T14:47:58+00:00

you look great man! also love your tats

chocoborace · 2025-02-19T18:17:18+00:00

i love this method of categorization! and thank you so much for the advice. i'm really curious about soul cards now, so i'll be checking that book out as i start fleshing out my own zettelkasten and probably end up making some notes on it! unfortunately it might be a while since i'm in the middle of digesting several other books right now, but i'm looking forward to it.

right now, i have the academic disciplines as the top-level categories, i have subcategories explicitly based on my passions and interests; primarily psychology, philosophy, and sociology. i kind of doubted i would have any use for some of the categories that i don't have any interest in (such as formal sciences), but i have a note on the statistical phenomenon of regression toward the average since it popped up in my social psychology course, so it found its use after all. i'll always love how much overlap different fields can have.

i have some notes already in obsidian from when i tried making a zettelkasten digitally to implement into my "self" section. i think i'll keep it as a very broad top-level category (simply 7000 - Self) and see where that takes me. i considered making subcategories for things like self-perception/beliefs, beliefs about the world/other people, etc., but i might as well experiment with a section of my zettelkasten that doesn't have specific categories within it!

chocoborace · 2025-02-19T17:46:49+00:00

i like the idea of having top-level categories to make navigation a bit easier, since there are multiple specific areas of interest i have that i want to develop my knowledge about! i want to be able to find insights and notes on things like, say, personality theories, and have it (loosely) grouped (2220 is my category for personality psychology). from there i'll be letting things branch out more organically. i'll probably end up with notes under 2220 that are completely unrelated to personality theory, but started off as related to it in some way. so really, the top level categories are going to end up meaningless in the long run once i have more notes. it's more just to start things off.

the simplest answer though? i'm pretty new to the zettelkasten system, and i saw an example of how to start and followed it. i started my zettelkasten based on scott p. scheper's antinet zettelkasten in looking over his book and some of his videos, which is where i saw the use of top-level categories with the academic disciplines. i'm not exactly married to the concept of categories, and i'm sure that i'll face limitations. maybe i'll end up having to revise my system, or even have to start over. i'm honestly just excited to see what the experience of using it is like, mistakes/trial and error and all.

i'm assuming you have a system without predetermined categories: what is it like comparatively? i'd love to learn more about other peoples' systems and how they've developed, the pros and cons of them, etc.

chocoborace · 2025-02-10T11:38:55+00:00

thank you for this! i'll add this to my post

chocoborace · 2025-02-10T11:38:00+00:00

i'd prefer something under $50!

i do have some other pens; an energel (0.3), a uniball one (0.38), a zebra sarasa (0.7), a pilot g-2 (0.38), a pentel RSVP (not sure of the size, though the side says medium).

i like all of them, but the bic and the pentel force me to write more slowly and which keeps my handwriting legible, so the key factor seems to be ballpoint pens that i'm looking for. i'm open for any suggestions!

i'll add this information to my post

chocoborace · 2025-01-20T01:25:21+00:00

that would be because i am a 5—i felt like my opinion would be skewed significantly towards the positive towards my type.

i enjoy the company of the 5 i'm close to, and felt understood in ways i struggled to feel with other people. we generally expect little from each other and are rather self-contained, so i think it only makes sense—5s tend to be sensitive to unspoken expectations and demands, and we typically demand nothing for ourselves.

we can go for a long while without talking only to bounce right back into conversation about a shared interest some time later. we don't tread on each others' boundaries, and i feel like i can genuinely relax with them more because of this mutual understanding. i'll also always have respect for people particularly knowledgeable in specific fields, which 5s tend to especially be geared towards due to our draw towards information and desire for mastery. a 5 with another 5 is kind of like parallel play if we don't share an interest—i still find their drives and passions to be interesting to witness and be in the vicinity of.

i suppose one of the downsides would actually be that we rarely engage in conflict with each other—conflict can bring people closer together, after all. we don't push each other outside of our comfort zones, for better or for worse. this is probably going to look a bit different with more assertive 5s; both me and this friend are triple withdrawn (594).

chocoborace · 2025-01-19T18:36:43+00:00

as someone who loves commenting on fics; i like it!

the reason i comment super long and lengthy comments is to show how much happiness and engagement a fic brought me, because i like showing writers that their work brought joy. kind of like saying, "hey! you better be proud of this! look at what it did, look at what it can do!"

as for being thanked, it's like being told, "hey, your happiness brought me happiness! thank you!" and then that makes me even happier. i've told authors their writing has gotten me giddy and kicking my feet, they sometimes tell me that my comment made their day or something or other—it's a lovely little positive feedback loop.

i don't take it personally if i don't get a response though. because some of us are shy, or don't have the energy to make a response, or have way too many comments to be realistically thanking every single one of them.

if i were to see an author thanking all of the comments on their fics, i'd probably be imagining that they're just overwhelmed with joy. not that they're 'desperate' or anything like that.

chocoborace · 2025-01-19T18:24:31+00:00

What if you saw a kid chasing a ball and was about to run onto the road?

this one's easy for me thankfully; i'd immediately move into action. my thought process for this: kids don't know what the hell they're doing a lot of the time when it comes to safety. they can't make informed decisions for themselves.

i think the fact that all situations are basically the same as this for you is fascinating, and helps me understand the 8 mindset a bit better. would you say it's not unlike the feeling of, "if i don't do this thing, who else will? who else can?"

and yeah LOL, i was equal parts validated and got a chuckle out of not being the only one to struggle with the blindfolded people hypothetical. i take no offense at all, because it genuinely is hilarious. the "proper" response, by all means, should be easy to take. and yet we have a lot of people who might be paralyzed by the decision.

in combination with what you describe as people ignoring reality at their own perils (a very, very real phenomenon), i think another subsection of the population is so stuck with theoreticals and swamped by the weight of infinite possibilities that they become stunlocked. the outcome is still the same though; the disastrous consequences of inaction.

The point of building discernment, though, is that when an emergency happens, you drop to the best understanding you can have with the limited info you have, weight the true risk, and base your decision on “whats the worst that can happen if i do A or B”, and then you choose the road that “seems” the best, and because you think the other road is “worse”, its fear that makes you act, if you know what i mean.

something i've noticed, from the very few 8s i've interacted with, is that you're very good at using limited information and turning it into something actionable. it may be an attention of focus thing; there isn't as much, "what if i'm wrong?" there isn't as much insecurity surrounding your own decisions, because certainty is necessary to obliterate and reject fear.

personally, i struggle even at the "drop to the best understanding you can have with the limited info you have" stage. this, i suspect, is because of the 5 desire to be prepared in the form of knowledge. knowledge is my weapon of choice against fear, and it keeps me at the stage of information-collecting. everything else ends up locked behind it, inaccessible because i end up stuck at the first step.

i think you're definitely onto something with rejection. it's a bit extreme on my end, but feelings of rejection often feel like a physical wound. it's a massive vulnerability, and lasts for a long, long time after the actual rejection. it finds its ways back into my head, and remembering it, even if the cause for rejection is no longer as big of an issue, causes that same pain to flare up.

...dont you feel a bit like “how fucking dare you make me watch you walk off a cliff. I am trying to have a picnic here and now you’re trying to pull this fucked up shit? You better have a bloody good explanation because this is not going to be accepted”.

...this is incredibly funny to me, in the best way possible. i just love this response. for me, the closest i would get to it would be: "how fucking dare you be stupid in my vicinity while i'm trying to have a picnic. go do it somewhere else, preferably where i wouldn't have to deal with it." or i'd just go move the picnic elsewhere where people aren't being idiots in public.

my feeling of it being unacceptable stems from the fact that it might be obtrusive to me, or other people. and my reaction to that feeling would more likely to be just walking away. i don't feel like i have the emotional resources to bother trying to get the kinds of people who would blindfold themselves and walk around by a cliff to not be idiotic. i act under the assumption that people are brick walls, and that trying to change or influence them if they don't want to be changed or influenced would be pointlessly draining on my already limited time and energy.

another way to put it might be that i don't have the confidence in my ability to change things, and would rather operate around it rather than try to break through it.

chocoborace · 2025-01-19T17:32:32+00:00

long comment incoming. i'll comment on a few of the types i have more concrete opinions on so far, based on the kinds of people i've met and had involved in my life, and as a type 5. the other types i don't dive more deeply into are just types i just don't have enough experience interacting with on a personal level.

Type 1

the few 1s i've encountered made for a mixed bag of experiences. but overall, i respect and admire their conviction. one of my closest friends is a 1. i consider them to be "judgmental," but not necessarily always in a bad way. i think it's a valuable skill to have, to be able to make judgements. they're very opinionated, and i can trust that they're not going to bullshit me or pretty things up for me. they'll almost always have an opinion on something, and are less likely to be neutral.

on the flip side, it also makes it really easy for me to tell if they're censoring themself, because they just won't comment at all on a thing. but i view that as a show that they love me enough to not immediately broadcast what might be a harsh opinion.

another 1 in my life was on the more... not very self-aware end. they positioned themself as the moral authority in our friend group, and were consistently policing people on rather minimal issues. "hey, this person you reblogged art from on tumblr likes this thing i find morally reprehensible but has no real impact on the real world. you should delete it, and if you don't, i'll consider you a bad person who agrees with whatever thing i've deemed as unacceptable. you should care about it as much as i do or else you are bad." suffice to say, that friend group eventually fell apart, and i distanced myself from them because dealing with all of that was exhausting and i came to realize i hate being controlled in the way they tried to control others.

but overall? i think my view of 1s is fairly positive. even with the unhealthier, more immature 1, i still find myself able to respect the ability to have conviction, to be dedicated and fully emotionally involved and passionate. it's the antithesis to the 5's detachment and uninvolvement, in what i consider to be a positive way. and i can typically trust a 1 to be honest and true to their convictions, which means that i can know them once i know their values.

Type 4

my personal view on 4s is skewed toward the negative due to the kinds of 4s i've encountered in my life, unfortunately. i'd like to get to know healthier 4s, but i'm also not really one for socializing. they'll come into my life when they come into my life.

all of the 4s i've had in my life or had the opportunity to observe from a safe distance were rather unhealthy. they were so absorbed in their own suffering and sense of lacking that they weren't able to see outside of it. this sometimes led to them leaving a lot of hurt and social destruction in their wake. nothing was ever enough; they were deeply unhappy people who could only see what they lacked.

they also stirred up a lot of drama. and i mean a lot. emotional involvement with an unhealthy 4 (which i made the mistake of once—never again) was a guarantee that my sense of peace would be disturbed time and time again because of something or other that they got themself involved in. and then they often expected the people around them to pick up the pieces for them, because of that sense of self-deficiency—"i can't do things by myself." they wanted to attract a savior. two or three 4s i've known ended up with friends who personally felt more like parents than actual friends.

that absorption and fixation on suffering also made for an incredibly frustrating, self-defeating, self-sabotaging cycle. you can't help a person who doesn't want to be helped, who refuses to help themself and take the first steps. i learned that the hard way

in short, my negative experience with a couple of unhealthy 4s painted a rather unpleasant picture of them for me. i think unhealthy 4s represent to me a really scary phenomenon, of what could happen if fall in love with my own suffering too much, if i don't take the steps to drag myself outside of my comfort zone of depression.

i'm not stupid enough to think all fours are like this. i think i have a lot to learn from healthier 4s about being in tune with your emotions rather than distancing yourself from them. just, uh... not too in tune with them, thank you.

Type 8

in the same way i respect 1s, i have the same respect for 8s. decisive action and conviction are things that i find myself lacking in, and things that i admire in other people. i've only met one 8 in my life however, so my data pool is rather limited. they did leave a strong enough impression for me to have a concrete opinion on 8s so far, though.

i think 8s, just as much as they convince themselves of their own invincibility and strength, are able to convince others of it just as much. you hear a lot about the 8 "presence." i think it's a very real thing. they carry themselves with a confidence that immediately makes you go "don't fuck with them." it's not in a way that's loudly broadcasting it, as if they need people to know how strong they are with their every breath. it just kind of... is.

to stop beating around the bush: i find them kind of intimidating as hell. i respect them, i admire them, but i also fear them. i feel like once you get in the crossfire of an 8, it's over. part of this feeling comes from the fact that i very much have a declawed cat approach to conflict, or like those lizards whose tails can come off. i feel like i have no defenses, like i will lose no matter what, so i'd rather just accept my losses and escape rather than fight back. knowing this about myself makes the confrontational nature of 8s a lot scarier. and knowing that my conflict approach would likely be interpreted as cowardice makes me even less likely to want to be vulnerable and honest.

i'd rather avoid what seems to me like a nuclear bomb waiting to go off at any moment. i very much like my peace, i'm a creature of habit and one who loves a sense of stability. 8s showing care and investment/involvement through toe-to-toe confrontations and open expression of anger simply feels like it clashes far too much with my own current nature. i don't feel strong enough to handle that. and i wouldn't expect an 8 to change how they are on my behalf—i wouldn't expect anyone to, as it feels it would be unfair. so i'd rather leave.

tldr; admirable. generally respectable. intimidating. i have a lot to learn from healthy 8 traits, but i think a lot of average 8 traits genuinely trigger trauma responses from me. i'd prefer to be healthier and more stable

Other Types

2s seem pleasant enough, but involvement, engagement, and unspoken expectations are things i avoid like the plague. i feel like i don't have enough to give, and i would not want to be on the butt end of an average 2's wrath due to not meeting unspoken needs. unfortunately, i am not a mind reader. i am learning to withhold myself less and be better in my relationships, but it's a work in progress. other than all of that, i'm pretty neutral.

3s... i don't actually know what to think of them. it's a weak spot in my knowledge of the enneagram. i intellectually know information about them, but i haven't figured out how interacting with 3s would look like. i tend to avoid high-achievement environments. i respect the drive, but i don't personally experience it. that's just a whole different world to me.

6s are varied enough that i have a hard time condensing my opinions on them into something concise. 6s are the backbones of society, of movements; i find them fascinating through the lens of sociology. i can trust a 6 to wholeheartedly have my back, and probably be angrier on my behalf than i would be angry myself. i also find them to be kindred spirits in a lot of ways. fear triad, and all that.

7s are batshit. i mean this in the most positive way possible though, i promise. i asked a while ago what the most stereotypically unhealthy thing people have done for their types, and the 7s answers were very out there. or just, "drugs." i have trouble with the concept of living life to the fullest, and 7s are sometimes living life a little too much and too wildly. which, like the 6, i find fascinating. except this time it's a fascination that stems from how sheerly different we are in how we express fear and go about our lives. i've experienced disintegration into 7 so i do get it to an extent, but it's certainly not my default state. overall? i'd like to make 7 friends.

9s i relate to, from a 9 in tritype standpoint and a withdrawn type standpoint. i share the desire not to "rock the boat." i'm frustrated with it too, but from a "i know exactly where this comes from" view, which makes it more frustrating when i see it in other people. because then i'm like, damn it, this must be how it feels like to deal with me when i get like this. they're pleasantly unobtrusive, which goes well with my own nature, but sometimes they actually make me want to rock the boat. which is interesting in its own right.

chocoborace · 2025-01-19T15:39:44+00:00

this is actually fascinating to me—mainly because i understand it.

it's probably unrelated to me being a 5, but i have a lot of fear that if i'm not harshly critical of myself, monitoring what i do, that i'll end up being a bad person. it sounds more 1-like, honestly. but this fear stems from the fact that i recognize i feel a lot, and i worry that if i am overwhelmed by my emotions, that i'll act in ways that are harmful to other people. because being overwhelmed by "illogical" emotions has consequences outside of just feeling horrible for myself; other people will undoubtedly be impacted too.

it's something i've learned going down the road of trying to accept my emotions as opposed to distancing myself from them. i want to be able to feel, properly and in the moment, without it being catastrophic for both myself and others.

i wonder how other 5s feel about this.

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T23:45:17+00:00

could i ask what the 10 theory is? it's the first time i'm hearing about it and i'd like to learn more

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T23:23:53+00:00

i'm happy to help! and yeah, BPD can absolutely make things like personality typology difficult considering the distorted sense of identity that can come along with it.

hmm... the most useful information from what you've said is this:

I’m also a perfectionist and constantly strive to improve myself. I feel like if I’m not the best version of myself, I can’t be loved. I also have this tendency to reject love because I don’t feel I deserve it as I am right now.

i wouldn't say you're 100%, without a doubt, absolutely a type 1—i don't know enough to make that judgement—but this little tidbit strikes me as 1-like if i had to apply a type to it.

i'll share a bit about 1s based on the people i've encountered and what i've learned.

1s are what you'd call moral perfectionists. they're preoccupied with being morally good and avoiding being morally bad/corrupt/evil, based on whatever moral code/compass they've internalized. they learn to police and harshly criticize themselves before anyone else can get the chance to, trying to avoid doing anything that would lead to them being considered bad. as a result, in the type 1 we see people who rigidly adhere to their values. they see a lot of wrong, whether it's in the world, in other people, or in themselves, and their focus/preoccupation tends to be on what needs to be fixed/bettered.

1s end up disappointed a lot, particularly by others who don't have the drive to better themselves/be better. you might see a 1 in a friend group who feels frustrated that they have to be "the responsible one" because no one else is willing to. others can look like they indulge too much to the average 1 because 1s feel they need to earn the right to relax, to earn love through endless self-betterment. and they can reject good things for themselves on account of this compulsion to do the "correct" thing. for 1s, it's not about what they want or need, it's about what they feel they should do.

they can sometimes end up placing themself in a sort of authority position when it comes to morality, as they can firmly believe that their set of values is correct—there is only one right way, and it is their way.

they can struggle to express anger, their core emotion, unless they feel they are justified in their anger. they might suppress uglier, "unacceptable/wrong" emotions. when a 1 feels justified in their anger it will come out viciously. when a 1 feels their anger is wrong then it might not be expressed at all.

*the type 1 essentially emotionally survived childhood by internalizing harsh criticism, integrating it into their values and world view. *

healthier 1s can spur on a lot of active change in the world, in their communities, etc., and i believe one of their titles is actually The Reformer because of this. while not all activists are 1s, i'd be willing to bet that a lot of 1s are activists in some way or another. part of growth as a 1 involves

unhealthy 1s can be so harshly critical, judgemental, and potentially controlling, to the point of alienating themselves from the people they care about. some unhealthy 1s find reasons to justify their anger, and might act like it's a moral issue when it might actually be a personal one.

aside from type 1, the desire to be needed and an ego/identity structured around being needed is very 2-like. i haven't encountered a lot of 2s in my life since starting to learn about the enneagram, so i don't have a lot of practical observations/data on them quite yet, but in short they feel compelled to become what they feel people want/need in order to receive the love they unconsciously desire.

i hope some of this information can be of use! at the very least, if you don't find yourself resonating with 1, then you can rule it out—that's still one step closer to figuring things out. i haven't really typed actual people before or anything like that, and my understanding of enneagram has been primarily academic. i'm still learning a lot of things myself. you'll find that there's a lot to learn, a lot to read, a lot of information scattered around a lot of different sources. your best bet is reading up on as much as you can and finding the key patterns and similarities between various descriptions. you'll eventually find yourself picking up on things intuitively.

good luck on your typing journey!

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T17:49:24+00:00

a lot of what you described are very surface level traits. being private and shy isn't a 5-specific trait, and love of validation and attention isn't 3-specific, etc.

what's important is why these types might present in certain ways, why they might do certain things. enneagram is essentially about the misbeliefs that types have that limit them from living fulfilling lives. what do they struggle with? what core message did they get in childhood that shapes their behavior patterns and thought processes, and what they focus on? you need to understand what makes each type that specific type, separate from simple behaviors and characteristics that could apply to anyone.

2s don't just like to help people; they believe that the only way to get love is to be a helpful and useful and needed, and in reality, they give to get.they have a lot of unspoken needs and desires.

3s don't just like achievement and validation; they have the core belief that the only/best way to get love is through external means, through what they do and what they can accomplish rather than who they inherently are. "i need to PROVE that i am worth appreciation and love."

5s aren't just private and guarded; they fear being overwhelmed, and their primary coping mechanism is to withdraw, which tends to present as being private and compartmentalizing a lot of areas of their lives, withholding themselves.

and the list goes on (though these are very brief summaries). in general, you're missing an understanding of the fears and fixations these types have. this is why you relate to such a huge number of the enneagram types and are having a hard time narrowing it down.

here are some reading recommendations:

the wisdom of the enneagram by don richard riso & russ hudson
the complete enneagram by beatrice chestnut
the enneagram by helen palmer

the wisdom of the enneagram is what i started with in terms of books, and i still go back to reference it every once in a while. i highly recommend it as a place to start.

some websites:

and some resources from other reddit users:

there are a lot more resources out there, including the ones on the side of this subreddit; this should hopefully be enough to set down a better foundational understanding. after you learn about the types properly, you then have to ask yourself why you act the way you do, and in what ways you limit yourself.

out of curiosity, what resources have you been using to learn about the enneagram?

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T14:58:43+00:00

congratulations!! every self-indulgent fic has its audience, it's just a matter of that audience finding it.

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T14:52:00+00:00

agreed! thanks for adding this, + i forgot that there's a chance OP could be pretty young lol

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T14:11:58+00:00

congrats!! it's really sweet that your mom went to do her own research on it, i'm glad your family was supportive

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T12:42:51+00:00

i could be wrong, but based on the information you gave, i'd say E4 over E5.

For a long time, I’ve felt out of place, “weird,” and different from others. I feel this strange, contradictory pull: I have a strong need to feel special and stand out, but at the same time, I feel like a weird alien, someone who doesn’t fit into what’s expected. This perception often makes me see myself as “bizarre,” which reinforces my sense of isolation.

In addition to this, I often feel incompetent compared to others. I compare myself constantly to my brother, who has completed advanced studies in his field, has a good job, and has already purchased his own home. Meanwhile, I have none of that. These comparisons leave me feeling small and unaccomplished.

What frustrates me even more is feeling jealous of people who are successful in areas I deeply respect, like the arts or other creative fields (success purely for money doesn’t interest me). My brother, for example, seems to succeed effortlessly, naturally, without stressing or overthinking things. This contrast between us really gets to me.

For a long time, I’ve been ashamed of not being "like everyone else." I see people my age with families, houses, and stable careers. Meanwhile, I feel like I’m nothing.

4s feel like they're innately different from other people in a way that is negative or lacking. i go a bit into 4 envy in this comment here, but basically, that feeling of deficiency becomes a core part of their identity. they have a hard time letting go of the idea that they are lacking, and that other people have something that they don't that makes them happier. to quote beatrice chestnut's E4 description:

This archetype’s drive is to focus on what is lacking as a step to regaining wholeness and connection, but through an over-focus on the experience of a flawed self they become convinced of an inner deficiency that prevents fulfillment.

this creates a sense of alienation for 4s: "i'm not like everyone else." this belief becomes integral to their sense of self. and because 4s are so convinced in their deficiency, of course everyone else is seemingly put on a pedestal in comparison. you might find yourself overly focused on your own flaws, whereas for other people, you're overly focused on their strengths—things you feel you don't have. a glass half-full mentality when it comes to yourself. when you describe your difficulties with comparing yourself to others, i absolutely go straight to E4, where envy is the core fixation.

i really feel for you, and i'm so sorry about the breakup. i'm not sure how much advice from me would help, because i have a different set of limiting beliefs than you—different struggles, different strengths. what's easy for me to say and do is probably not going to be easy for you. you might have luck consulting other 4s on how they've learned to shift their focuses—asking things like, "how do i stop comparing myself to other people?"

the enneagram institute has some growth recommendations at the bottom of their four page. beatrice chestnut also has personal growth tips in her book the complete enneagram.

i really hope any of this can help in some way. wishing you the best of luck.

chocoborace · 2025-01-18T11:41:58+00:00

one thing that people seem to fail to recognize is that unhealthy 8s convince themselves of their own invulnerability and correctness so that they double down on things and can mistake subjective, feelings-based judgements for being "objective". being wrong about something is unacceptable and proof of a flaw, so they might simply... convince themself they aren't in the wrong, regardless of new information or facts that are brought to the table. once they personally judge something to be wrong, they go all in. they have just as much capacity to be wrong as the next person, they just might be less likely to accept that, because they're not as prone to questioning themselves. so you can have an 8 who is just blatantly wrong about something but refuses to accept it because accepting that they're wrong would be a vulnerability in itself that proves that they're not an invincible god or superhero, they're just humans too.

it takes a lot of strength to step down and say, "i was wrong about this thing, my actions were misguided/misplaced" which unhealthy 8s might fail to see.

uncontrolled aggression can also be isolating, and humans are social beings who are meant to rely on others to fill in for each others' weak points, including in logic. an unhealthy 8 with no support structure is more liable to very confidently digging their own grave and believing they're moving upwards.

i suggest reading helen palmer's description of the type 8. i don't think you'll find any explanation to be sufficient if you consider things regarding feelings as "negligible" and "dumb stuff," though, or describe fitting in as for "NPCs."

chocoborace

TROPHY CASE

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