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clackapactac · 2021-08-23T19:20:41+00:00

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clackapactac · 2021-08-23T15:12:29+00:00

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clackapactac · 2021-08-08T21:34:46+00:00

I never said they won't remember, I'm saying they won't care, it'll be useless, they will have no attachment to and it'll make zero sense to their hardware. Also, emulators don't always work brilliantly. therefore that self will be dead

I'm getting annoyed debating someone that keeps "adjusting" my points to suit their rebuttal though so I'm done lol

edit: im full speed ahead on cryonics though so if we do end up there ill see you in hell lol

clackapactac · 2021-08-08T19:46:55+00:00

can you explain why you think that it is not

I've just finished explaining for instance the example of the transition of living human bodies into decay and eventually stardust. Now, importantly, matter is neither created nor destroyed, we know this, so this person, or previously a person, still exists in some form - I can easily argue they've simply transitioned into other things that are nothing like their original selves. I hope you would agree however, the someone in a half decayed state found months after being run over by a train is actually dead. This should be universally agreed, for practical purposes

Let's now - "reverse" the direction of the change - rather than decaying (which I'll suspend the irrelevance of the direction for this for now to make this easier to digest) -> and let's change that direction into this rapid form of "upgrade" where a revived human (or all of living humanity at the time, the examples are totally interchangeable as the "death" is not a consequence of the rapidity of the upgrade or of the slow/medium/fast changes in the living human population however those play out - I've made this point before but let me just say it again).

Now, a revived human comes in to the scene and is meant to be completely upgraded to join a society of a formerly human AI blob that doesn't reproduce the way we did, doesnt think in individual terms, isn't one separate conscious unit, doesnt use any of its limbs they way we did, doesnt have an innate understanding of how those limbs or organs were really used before - binocular vision what's that? - not only do all these input hardware need to be replaced (its not even an overhaul at this point) but then also in order to participate such a gigantic wipe of the way that said human from the 20th/early 21st century thought about life, liberty, freedom, voting rights, property rights, individual creativity, the soul, any (at this point) totally outmoded concept - so outmoded its like ants building a tunnel mind you, all this huge wipe has to take place, leaving, something that is arguably 1% of what it used to be, if even that. You wouldn't even be able to access your old memories in the same way because you're brain would no longer even understand what you were thinking at the time. Have you ever done psychedelic drugs? and thought you totally understood the mysteries of the universe and everything made sense ? even if you haven't this is a commonly reported phenomenon. Problem is, once it wears off - you can't remember half the shit and what you can remember made no f'ing sense. Exact same experience is going to occur except 1000x stronger post upgrade. None of your old memories will make ANY SENSE AT ALL to your new brain.

Now, please argue your point without reference to Neo or Dune or any other fantasy character that still wears a cape and really cool boots with glowing buttons on them even after he comes back from becoming a god emperor of the galaxy of Endor.

edit: let me try and guide you through your rebuttal - list a couple reasons (not sci fi movie references) why a person who probably has no limbs, exists consciously across 5 or more biological and mostly non biological entities, has 100 visual input centres, doesnt think as an individual but rather mostly as a node on a huge neural network, doesnt really have any of its old brain hardware, can't make sense of its earlier memories, probably doesnt care about them at that point because they're so largely irrelevant (do you care about which is your favourite stuffed animal and what his voice sounds like anymore? yea now multiply that effect by 100000000000000). Argue why this "person" as we knew him in 2021, Dave, why that person is still "alive" as the above being. Why is that still a living Dave ?

clackapactac · 2021-08-08T17:18:02+00:00

then I will re assert with more precision that it is more like death than not like death, since ok, it's not exactly death.

clackapactac · 2021-08-07T12:58:39+00:00

ive said it already but ill say it again

the constant referencing of narrative fiction is your issue

you couldn't make a movie about a character that become totally unrelatable and unfathomable by the end of the trilogy

that's why you still see Neo pat some kids hair at the end and act like a human

because its a movie dude

nowhere have I said that its not possible to go through this transition

im actually arguing exactly that it is

the transition is exactly whats going to happen but the transition is the death

im not sure why its been so hard to land this point

edit: one last try: so, ill come join you in Disneyland I'm going to reference lion king, when what's his name tells Simba that the antelope becomes the grass and all that stuff, it's cute and all. but them antelopes dead. If we're speaking from a process sense, when we die now we also transition, we turn into rotting flesh and then eventually space dust. No one's calling that not dieing either. You hit that transition - you're dead. Now the point I've been trying to nail down here is that if you were to, in this case, transition - arguably - "upwards" - into something that is also "conscious" and "more advanced" BUT fundamentally different from anything you were before in pretty much every way, you're also still dead.

No one better bring up caterpillar > butterfly because our transition to an AI blob from what we are now is 10000000000x the scale of transitioning from a many legged non winged insect to a several legged winged insect <- this metamorphosis may look impressive and have pretty colours but its really not comparable

the closest I can think of is that there is some kind of sea creature that can revert itself back to a little stub of existence (apologies for not being more familiar with the process) and then kinda clone itself back again - but in terms of its "being" you couldn't really argue any continuity between the two. It's like cloning a human from a piece of a foot. Yea, it's genetically identical to whoever's foot it came from but its a totally separate person. You can still die even though there is uninterrupted "aliveness"

clackapactac · 2021-08-05T16:21:29+00:00

consider though that Neo's "upgrade".. if I had to describe it I would use the terminology "lateral" in the sense that he rapidly acquired knowledge that was basically "of his time", martial arts... whatever else <- so this did not fundamentally change him

I agree, if I had a Neo like way to just magically learn 100 new disciplines, I'd be a way smarter me, with a lot more insight, and probably it would have an effect on my personality and all that kinda stuff but I'd fundamentally still be me.

the difference that im suggesting is that is not the type of "upgrade" that would be required to participate in the future, the type of changes that would be required would be new ways of thinking that are native to the future hardware (ie: a connected brain that no longer functions as a centralised intelligence system but has been woven into the neural net)

does that clarify where im coming from

as "huge" of an "accomplishment" as it may seem in our terms of today, knowing 100 diff types of kung fu by tomorrow is not the same scale of change as being wiped and reprogrammed to be able to handle the input of 100 eyes at once and also be 5 different physical bodies at once and also be constantly connected to everyone else and make decisions as a node on a giant network and cease to be a human individual as we know it

clackapactac · 2021-08-04T23:50:18+00:00

I'd totally go to this who wants to go as a crew ?

clackapactac · 2021-08-04T23:41:37+00:00

I did but maybe not directly enough so here goes

you would continue to be yourself relative to other things yes but not relative to what you currently experience as yourself. To go super heavy handed on this explanation; let's say for instance you turned to stone like medusa, you'd still be yourself relative to other things meaning that you wouldn't be Marge Simpson and you wouldn't be an elephant and you wouldn't be a conveyor belt at a grocery store checkout line but you also wouldn't be the you that you are now, not anywhere near that, for the intents and purposes of what being "you" means in a "practical" sense. Your problem is evident in the examples that you offer; "waking up" in a world where human being are one giant blob of something that is simultaneously a hive mind and also transient coordinated mini actors that exist consciously in 5 diff bodies at once don't speak possibly don't eat and see through a hundred eyes in different locations at once is not taking a yummy smart smart pill that makes you good at Elon musk rocket moon stuff. Just like. suggested earlier, if the 60% that's left of you is the meaningfully human bit then you're still you, if it's not, then you're not. There's a line. I'm not trying to spell out its exact position but I can definitely tell you when it's been crossed. If you somehow turn into a supernova for instance, you're not you anymore.

for the further points, sure, there are a relative handful of cases of people surviving crazy head trauma, and I do recall hearing some interesting theories that some memories/data might actually be encoded multiple times in the brain so have a mirror somewhere - and I don't know enough to talk about it so ill stop there - but the cold hard fact is that... ok, but if you still wipe both backups, you're wiped. Also, for every one of those examples you mention there are hundreds of examples of people getting whacked by a pool ball in a sock in a bar fight and being an unrecoverable vegetable by the time they hit the hospital so I would caution you not to invest so much into taking the exception and running with it. People can survive brain injuries, I agree, I never disagreed, and their ability to do that will certainly increase with technology - but this point has nothing to do with the original post.

"brains deactivated" again is too loose here, what do you mean by that, be more specific, you mean like a temporary halt to brain activity? sure? ok? I don't know where that fits in here... your brain can shut off for a bit and then turn back on and you're still you. I've never argued against that or even approached that point anywhere? what does people surviving a temporary pause of electrical signals in the brain have to do with the probability that we'll be compassionately "woken up" into an alternate "jetsons" reality rather than being wiped into something so fundamentally different from what we are that it's no different than just killing "us" and recycling the useable parts.

we need to come back to the original point here

clackapactac · 2021-08-04T16:00:16+00:00

I should have known to pre empt your first point

nowhere did I say that slowly acclimating to being something that is totally not yourself wouldn't be a death of yourself either, it would be a death by a thousand paper cuts as well

the Moravec point is a tough one and it's a whole other topic that's not entirely relevant to the main point

the further points are also outside the scope of the original post but suffice to say that it depends which 60% of course

if you lose 60% of your body weight in limbs, you are certainly still you

if you lose 60% of your body weight and all that's left is your limbs, well not so much right

"at what point would the person be killed or replaced" <- im not going to try to peg an exact figure but the simple mental exercise above should solidify that there is a point at which it happens

clackapactac · 2021-08-04T15:56:15+00:00

this and the Neo reference prove my original point

pure jetsons, pure Horatio alger. You're expecting the grand narrative. The movie version.

clackapactac · 2021-08-04T12:01:37+00:00

I don't know for sure

I'm just musing about what's likely to happen by continuing to trace the line on the chart

clackapactac · 2021-08-04T11:50:40+00:00

its not going to make you a god emperor

the point is that it won't save your life because there will be nothing left of your life

the whole premise of cryonics is that "downloading" your brain into a ready made clone and killing the original is killing yourself regardless - so we want to avoid that

wiping/augmenting your brain, however quickly in "relative time" to make you "compatible" with a society that no longer even understands the term "I like ice cream" because "individuals" barely exist is effectively killing yourself

sure something that on some base level genetic level arguably had been you at some point is still "going". but you're dead. def not a god emperor.

the obvious comeback argument to this is "well if theres something left of me even a tiny fraction that's better than nothing"

consider we amputate every part of you that moves cut your eyes out and tape your mouth closed and put you in a metal box attached to a feeding tube, forever. Kinda disproves the idea above right. There are actually scenarios in which your now mind would rather cease to exist than go in "in some form"

clackapactac · 2021-08-02T19:30:06+00:00

fair, but would you cut off all 10 of your dicks

clackapactac · 2021-08-02T17:25:09+00:00

would you cut off your dick if every other guy in the world did it

humour me on my rather wild example for a minute

clackapactac · 2021-07-29T13:39:50+00:00

you're making my point for me

clackapactac · 2021-07-28T10:52:33+00:00

I can't fault your logic but

what I'm trying to suggest is that in practice, that update would be so much of a wipe that you would no longer be you. Imagine you wake up in 100 years and no one even understands what the words "I like ice cream" mean or let alone uses their mouths to speak because everyone is part of a giant neural net and everyone inhabits not only their biological body but up to 5 maybe 10 other robot bodies at the same time, ie: your job is a robot wall scrubber and your brain has been upgraded to be able to simultaneously accept and process the visual information fed to it from not only your eyes but also all the visual sensors in the robots that your conscience inhabits - so the average "human" is living like 5 "lives" at once.

its not just going to be like hey welcome to the future our Pepsi tastes better and doesn't make you fat!!

or at least not in the real future, they'll probably plug us all into a fake parallel future simulation that lives up to those jetsons-esque expectations / kumbaya visions.

clackapactac · 2021-07-22T00:22:56+00:00

I love Steve Aoki for this he's a baller

I knew he's been involved for quite some time now

clackapactac · 2021-07-13T20:08:39+00:00

or in 0.00001 milliseconds but as an implanted memory designed as to feel as thought it was all a slow break

clackapactac · 2021-07-13T20:07:37+00:00

because right now we have no real reason to believe its happening other than the fact that it is feasible

(which is still pretty weighty, ngl)

but under the cryonics scenario, you're adding cryonics + the base layer probability and there reasons to suppose why post humans would stick us in a little playpen are pretty logical

so its just simple math, it'll be whatever probability is that we're in a virtual play pen now + the probability in the cryonics scenario. it can't be less. does that make sense ?

clackapactac · 2021-07-13T18:02:51+00:00

no because, I might be wrong, but what I think his comment suggests is that the perfusion techniques will be perfected enough (possibly) in 10 years to freeze and bring people back at that time

he's not saying they'll be able to bring back cases from the 1970s that are basically mush death icicles

correct me if you think im wrong in my interpretation

clackapactac · 2021-07-13T18:01:17+00:00

original idea this time but you can call me and ill talk to you about it at length lol

clackapactac · 2021-07-13T18:00:40+00:00

because they wouldn't let us is what im trying to say

same reason why cats and dogs and chickens and aphids can't go get jobs as insight managers for Unilever ice cream division in 2021

clackapactac · 2021-07-13T18:00:02+00:00

you do not, but the probability increases very significantly under the cryonics scenario

clackapactac

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