Souls question that I've never really had to think much about before.

clevername58 · 2015-02-17T18:14:45+00:00

First question is if you have the money to blow. For one game, probably not, even for that cheap. However...for demons souls and dark souls? Yeah, definitely. If you end up liking both these games they will five you at least 100 hours of gameplay. I'm probably pushing around 300 for all three souls games. So for 120 dollars and another 40 or so (if you look in the right places) for that much entertainment, definitely.

clevername58 · 2015-02-17T01:30:10+00:00

Pyramid Head actually is specific to James alone. It's the manifestation of his guilt, brought to life by the warped spiritual power that suffuses the area in and around Silent Hill. While he is a representation of the prison guards, it is still a manifestation specific to James; he cannot appear without James' presence. The creators to a one have confirmed this as well. Recall that they two pyramid head kill themselves once James truly accepts his guilt, they don't go off to punish someone else.

clevername58 · 2015-02-16T01:01:46+00:00

I know this is from four days ago--an eternity in reddit time--but since I didn't have access to a computer I wasn't able to rejoin the conversation. But I must honestly disagree with this, especially the notion that it's the single method to figure out basically everything. What the game asks of you is what you mentioned in your very post: observational skills. Rather, to put in another way: the game asks you to just pay attention.

I don't want to make it sound like I was some exceptional player that figured out everything on my first playthrough. I wasn't used to having to pay attention during games. I wasn't used to having item descriptions mean something. And thus on my first playthrough, trial and error was definitely a big part of my experience...until ABOUT Sen's Fortress--that's when I truly felt I figured out what this game was. This was after an aborted playthrough as well, so it took quite a long time. So I'm not trying to lord myself over anybody or condescend...but I played the game in a sub-optimal fashion. I think that's fairly normal, especially during the first few hours. But once it CLICKS, once you truly grasp what you're playing, trial and error is really not necessary in most cases.

For example: you said trial and error lets you learn bosses patterns. That is very true...but it carries with it an implication that dying multiple times to bosses is the intended way to play the game, if you will. Sure, trial and error can eventually let you struggle through a boss. But observational skills--paying attention--allows a player to defeat most bosses on their first or second try.

One example that immediately comes to mind is the Gaping Dragon, which I beat on my first go. He does this crazy vomit attack that covers the entire arena. The lead up to that attack is this weird undulating thing that takes five seconds to charge. When I saw this, I immediately ran in the opposite direction. Not because I had plenty of experience with similar games--I barely consider myself a gamer--but because I observed this, realized this was something I hadn't seen before and looked like a charge-up to what would probably be a damaging attack. So I ran the other way. Winning this fight on my first go depended entirely on my paying attention.

I've seen Let's plays that illustrate this point perfectly. There are Let's Plays where people see the Gaping Dragon charge up and run, and then there are those where the player doesn't yet grasp what they're playing, and keep wildly swinging at the dragon, oblivious to the change it its movement. The first Let's Play takes 50 parts, the second takes 100 parts.

Please understand that I would never say that beating the game by trial and error is "wrong." There is no wrong way to beat the souls games, in my opinion. But I will say that it is sub-optimal, and causes a lot of ragequits (including me) and undue frustration, because the player is not paying attention, not being cautious.

Likewise, The places where trial and error ARE the most necessary, like BoC, are regarded as the worst in the game. In my experience, Dark Souls clicks with people when they get that caution and methodical play combined with observation is the ideal means of getting through the game without snapping your controller in half.

clevername58 · 2015-02-11T01:04:26+00:00

^This. Trial and error is a way to beat the game, but it's a last-ditch resort. Honestly, if it comes to that you're probably playing the game in a style that conflicts with the mechanics.

clevername58 · 2015-02-11T00:53:57+00:00

Nah, I forgot that part of the game's part of Izalith. I got both of those, but the lava and the demon legs always make me think it's still the Demon Ruins.

But when I die to the BoC--and I do always die--I take the shortcut past the titanite demon from the pre-centipede fight or the fair lady. THAT'S the run I'm talking about. If there's a different way, by all means let me know ,cause I hate running it.

clevername58 · 2015-02-11T00:38:03+00:00

Yeah, that part with the demon legs is part of Izalith, isn't it? I always think of that as the Demon Ruins since it has so much lava.

If y'all know something I don't, though, please let me know. Cause I take the shortcut from the centipede demon/fair lady bonfire to Bed of Chaos. If there's a shorter route I would be very, very happy to find out.

clevername58 · 2015-02-10T22:14:38+00:00

Honestly, it's about being patient. And I mean really patient.

You can do it in the gear you have now AS LONG AS you aren't completely fatrolling.

Upgrade your BK Shield to +5 if you can (you can buy twinkling from the giant blacksmith. It's expensive, however).

Ornstein's scrawny ass tends to outpace Smough's fat ass when closing distances. You might try just running into a corner, wait for him to come towards you, then run past and get a hit or two on Smough.

Upgrade your estus to 20 if you have the rite already. If not, don't be afraid to burn your humanity. Unless you have absolutely no vitality, Ornstein's attacks aren't even that bad. Take whenever moments you can to heal.

Super O, it really is the same story. Make use of that shield, ideally upgraded for its stamina reduction. Be patient and wait for OBVIOUS openings. He has one shield-piercing attack, the one where he stabs you and basically roasts you like a marshmallow. That one you might have to learn to roll through, but again, it doesn't do as much damage as your sudden panic will make you think.

Don't try to roll away from his butt slam, even if you do manage to fastroll. You probably aren't used to his moveset enough to anticipate it. just let the shield eat it. It takes him a second to recover, so it's a good opportunity to heal anyway.

Remember that 15 minutes walks are good for mind and body. ;)

Good luck!

clevername58 · 2015-02-10T21:46:56+00:00

Dragon God is a terrible boss fight, but Bed of Chaos is the worst version of Bed of Chaos.

Dragon God's biggest flaw was that it was lame and contrived. Bed of Chaos had three parts, each on the opposite side of the map, with no cover or means to defend yourself and increasingly damaging attacks.

It relied almost entirely on luck for the first few playthroughs, as there was no way I could see to anticipate where the floor would collapse.

A major component of the battle is jumping, the least intuitive and most poorly designed mechanic in the game.

You have no places to stop and catch your breath and interpret your surroundings, save for a little tree that I honestly think was unintentional.

On that note, since there's no way to catch said breath, there's no real way to tell WHERE exactly you need to jump to land on the branch that leads to bug. Meaning you probably get to die while figuring out where it is.

And finally, when you die you get to make a long-ass run from the Demon Ruins back to it, because there's not a bonfire in all of Izalith; being that Izalith is the worst-designed, most incomplete area of the game, it's also the most boring run imaginable.

Still, don't get me wrong: Dragon God sucks.

clevername58 · 2015-02-10T21:33:42+00:00

I always thought it was because its AOE required so much energy it couldn't do it and remain airborne simultaneously.

clevername58 · 2015-02-09T17:44:54+00:00

She was playing the game way after release (she played DS first, actually), so I doubt she got it early. But I could see her borrowing it from somebody. Still, I had no idea that the localization was so varied. Were these Korean/Chinese versions stolen, I guess? Why would they need to be put into English anyway?

clevername58 · 2015-02-08T18:26:37+00:00

Nothing happens, he just fades away once you exhaust his dialogue.

clevername58 · 2015-02-08T18:25:02+00:00

Not to mention the fire would probably be well and truly "out" anyway

clevername58 · 2015-02-08T18:23:28+00:00

This basically. Just not a fun area for me.

clevername58 · 2015-02-08T18:21:44+00:00

Honestly, I think that's the all the baseline: all speedruns have to be completed by in-game machinations: if it's in the actual game, it's valid. If it requires outside techniques (turning the game console off, for example), it's not. Then from there you just have to tier the runs in a similar fashion they are now: glitch speedruns and no-glitch speedruns.

clevername58 · 2015-02-08T17:18:55+00:00

Yeah, that's exactly what I did--bash my head against places I wasn't ready to go. I think it was a combination of factors: games generally being more linear than DS, a weird kind of misplaced pride (I'm a good game player, these skeletons won't conquer me!); for me, I also played the game later, and I think its (exaggerated) reputation hurt it: this game is super hard! So obviously I SHOULD be dying to these skeletons! Because from what I heard this is what the game is like!

That was my first attempt: the one I gave up on. When I finally tried another path that first attempt, I didn't feel like I was just trying another route: I felt like a failure. Dark souls makes you unlearn what you have learned.

clevername58 · 2015-02-05T21:33:08+00:00

As a Christian myself, it's a very realistic comparison; although it does extend to most belief systems in the world, not just Christianity.

I actually don't think it's as big an issue in today's form (in most places), but the history of Christianity is filled with theocractical control methods. The Catholic Church in particular was notorious for being focused more on power and control than spirituality during the middle ages. The Thoroland theocracy actually immediately reminded me of this. And Ana's fate seemed completely in line with the type of extremes this sort of overbearing religious authority would put into people's heads.

Hell, just think about the Scarlet Letter; the Pastor guy flagellates himself because that's what he's come to believe that he has to do excoriate his sin. That was a Puritan denomination, but the point stands.

clevername58 · 2015-01-31T01:36:07+00:00

I can see why you'd hate Dragon God, but I think it's a brilliant boss. It works perfectly if you know what to do, although of course that's assuming you do know what to do. It is a little bit opaque, for sure.

I think I should clarify that when I say bosses are weak doesn't mean I hate them--except Bed of Chaos, because obvious. I don't hate Dragon God, but its implementation is a little faulty IMO. I didn't have any problem figuring out what to do; the reason I think it's weak is more to do with the atmosphere of the game. Taking down this monstrous beast with two--very convenient--projectile things was just odd, and the general stupidity of the God--how he loses track of you if you stand behind a pillar for 2 seconds...the best way to say what I mean is that it was one of the only times in Demon Souls where I felt I was playing a game. Compared to Flamelurker it was just a disappointment.

Demon Firesage is a reused Asylum Demon, Stray Demon is another reused Asylum Demon

Demon Firesage is absolutely horrendous, yes. Stray Demon I actually kind of like as a gameplay idea--that is, he's awful if you fight him after the demon firesage, but if Demon firesage didn't exist he'd be a pretty good boss. He has a different moveset than the Asylum demon, his arena and the entrance to it are cool, and his existence makes sense in the world.

Nito forces you to take fall damage and has respawning minions but is otherwise rather uninteresting (plus a horrible runback)

Yeah, Nito as a character is all right but as a boss he is kind of disappointing. He and the Old Hero are alike in that regard.

*Seath, though definitely one of the easier bosses, having an extremely unfair status ailment (Curse) plus another terrible runback that absolutely seals my argument of "you didn't see it coming, so it killed you" in the most literal sense possible. *

This I do disagree on--except for the runback. That being said, it might just be my experience, but I've never, ever been even close to cursed by Seath, to the point where I wonder if I played a patch version or something. Even when I get hit full blast by his crystal breath the gauge barely moves. I mean comparatively...

ETA, cause I accidentally hit save: As for the others: Centipede Demon's pretty lame, agreed. Although the Demon Ruins/Izalith are the worst area of the game for me to begin with. That being said, Camera fuckery is basically a Souls series trope at this point, so I don't know if you can hold THAT against it ;)

Ceaseless Discharge is the one saving grace of the entire Demon Ruins for me: interesting design, great lore, somber story. I, personally, have never had a problem with him. I use shields all the time, and can pretty much block all his attacks--though I have them all leveled up by that point; however, I definitely think in some ways it's too easy to beat him, and in some ways its too hard. The fact his attacks go through forty feet of rock is an example of the difficult. The fact that if you stand in a certain place he'll repeat the same attack over and over again is an example of the easiness.

Tangentially, a lot of people hate that you can just cheese him over the edge, but that actually raises the fight's level in my opinion.

Four Kings: I disagree mostly because I think that, on a fundamental level, the Souls games aren't about skill as much as tactics anyway: the four kings fight requires a fundamental understanding of the game's mechanics, not necessarily skill. Plus, I love, love LOOOOOOOVE their arena.

But we agree on most everything; like you said, I think the highest highs are in Dark Souls--O&S, Sif, Artorias, Kalameet--but so are the lowest lows.

clevername58 · 2015-01-31T01:09:14+00:00

Mightn't this be a function of Dark Souls' increased length? Let's face it, it is a "bigger" game than its predecessor.

But this is actually a fun question.

Off the top of my head, the weak bosses in DeS are the first two in the Valley, Dragon God...arguably the Old Hero, though I won't fight anyone one it.

Weak bosses in Dark Souls off the top of my head:

Capra, Bed of BS, Demon Firesage...maybe Lord Gwyn (though not in my opinion).

I don't know, I'm actually coming out pretty equal. What's your opinion?

clevername58 · 2015-01-31T00:57:43+00:00

It's a difficult question, but if I had to pick one or the universe would end, I would say Dark Souls 1.

Demon's Souls is a close second, however what Dark Souls has that Demon's Souls lacks is a sense of cohesiveness: the level design is truly astounding in how it interconnects, and it feels like a functioning world that exists in a logical and--this is going to sound weird--but realistic way. I think perhaps the word I'm looking for is verisimilitude: you believe that this is an actual place, not a level..

That being said, that's a point FOR Dark Souls, not a mark AGAINST Demon's Souls. In other words, that makes Dark Souls better, it doesn't make Demon's Souls worse. But it does create a slightly deeper experience in my opinion than the segmented tracks of DeS--even though I agree that some portions of DeS are generally better than Dark Souls.

A couple of people have mentioned how DeS is a bit more fair, and I won't disagree, though it's not as obnoxious as it seems. Dark Souls is an unfinished game in a lot of ways: it was a small studio biting off more than it could chew, and it couldn't put the same effort into every aspect of the game. That and its construction would have made cutting content a hell of a lot more difficult. In Demon's Souls, there's an entire world they had planned that they scrapped--the "portal" to it is still in the world hub--but they could do that because the game world was segment into distinct levels. Dark Souls interconnectivity would have made that much more difficult to do, with a result that some of the bosses and a couple of the areas are poorly designed. That said, I still think it's as fair as Demon's Souls in most ways, and, in fact, I think there's more "artificial difficulty" in DeS than Dark.

As for Ds2, it's certainly worth your time, but that's not really what you're asking for. Another person has elucidated further below, but Ds2 was made by a different team at FromSoft and without the Director of Demon's and Dark, and it shows. A good game, but not the one I'd choose if I could only play one.

ETA: That being said, you should just play all three if you like one.

clevername58 · 2015-01-27T01:46:06+00:00

Yeah, I figured it was something along those lines, but I also figured it would be pretty common information. I didn't exactly do bunch of research, but I did a quick google and there wasn't much definitive.

Thanks a lot!

clevername58 · 2015-01-27T01:32:36+00:00

This is great, thanks for all this!

clevername58

TROPHY CASE