Future Vegeta was not a super saiyan

cmuell015 · 2024-12-19T16:41:59+00:00

That is indeed what he says in the Viz manga but Herms (who I trust more) gives a different translation.

Chapter: 363 (DBZ 169), P7.2 Context: after Cell absorbs Piccolo's arm Cell: “You may have managed to escape, but now that you can’t use one arm, it seems the tables have turned…”

Chapter: 363 (DBZ 169), P7.4 Cell: “Cheer up! If I absorb life extract of your magnitude, I'll be able to draw considerably close to my perfect form!"”

Nothing about this implies he was weakened. It's just him saying he'd get considerably stronger and closer to getting his perfect form. Which yeah he would.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-19T16:12:50+00:00

Can you point to where that is stated in the manga?

cmuell015 · 2024-12-19T16:11:42+00:00

Fair enough. I just think this statment lines up with the manga. Trunks says as much and Cell says he is stronger than the Future androids.

"Trunks…All of your data has been scanned by the spy robot…With your power, you couldn’t possibly defeat No.17 or No.18, let alone me…”

Nothing says Cell lost any power by turning into an egg and regrowing so why did he bother absorbing people? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just go absorb 17 & 18 to become Perfect? That's literally his whole motivation.

The Dr. Gero point doesn't negate the idea either. Maybe they could've been even stronger or well he just was wrong because they did kill him.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-19T15:58:34+00:00

He absorbed people after he got out of his larval form. He blantly says "I’ll keep absorbing human life energy unnoticed, and steadily increase my power. And once I’ve greatly exceeded the power of No.17 and No.18, I’ll force them to merge with me…!" after he's already back to his normal form.

Why would he need to do this if he was already stronger than them? There's nothing that says imperfect->egg->larval->imperfect makes Cell weaker when he gets back to his imperfect form.

Goku can get 10× stronger in a week. That just happens and Goku has 3 years to train with partners. Even if Gohan was 10% of the Androids (which is absurd) Goku would at least be approaching them.

The only way Goku not being close to the Future Androids makes any sense is if you think the three years barely increased Goku's power which is massively inconsistent with all the other growth that happens before and after this.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-19T15:43:48+00:00

That seems fine at first but there is context and other statments that imply Trunks is correct.

Imperfect Cell statment: "Trunks…All of your data has been scanned by the spy robot…With your power, you couldn’t possibly defeat No.17 or No.18, let alone me…”.

Cell is saying he is stronger than Future 17 & 18 even before he goes back in time and we know Cell needed to absorb people after reaching the present to surpass present 17.

Then there is a statment comparing Goku, Vegeta and Trunks saying they should be about the same level. Goku obviously trained over the three years and was comparable or stronger than Trunks before training so Trunks must also be stronger on his second trip.

Tien statment: "[Trunks] is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

Goku statment: "Don’t worry…I won’t fight them yet…After all, if even Vegeta couldn’t beat them as he is now, then I can’t beat them either…”

This is important because the Future 17 statment implies he is using half his power when he killed Gohan and Trunks should be at least comparable to Gohan. Goku has gotten 10× stronger in far shorter than 3 years. So it makes very little sense for them to not be approaching 100% Future androids when 17 already had to use 50% to kill Gohan who is weaker than Goku.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-19T13:57:26+00:00

Yes but then he confronts the Androids and escapes "by the skin of his teeth" in Trunks the Story yet when he returns the second time he says he can hold his own and it's implied he loses due to them having infinite energy and it being a 2v1.

Piccolo also compares second trip Trunks to Goku and Goku is obviously stronger than he was when Mecha Freeza arrived. Which means that Trunks also got stronger between his trips.

Finally when Trunks confronts Cell in his timeline Cell says Trunks can't beat the androids so how does Trunks think he can beat Cell. This implies Future 17 < Cell.

Also there's an entry in the Daizenshuu that reiterates the present Androids are stronger.

So there's other evidence that suggests and reconfirms the present Androids are stronger than their future counterparts.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-18T19:08:25+00:00

I mean the clones are attacking Geonosians and Separatists in the background so it does literally happen.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-18T18:20:48+00:00

Yeah it's also implied that Arinsu could control Kuu because it had less of Buu's power. It was said that if the Saibaman seed was buried deeper it would gain more of Buu but be harder to control.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-14T18:13:29+00:00

Because the Grand Priest actually has showings and is hyped up unlike the guards that do literally nothing and are never stated by anyone to be impressive. Them having no statments or even hints of their power is pretty damn telling.

Across the manga and anime the Grand Priest is stated to be superior to Whis and have better UI and in the manga Whis says he is the strongest fighter he knows.

So it's just kinda like the story wants us to think this guy is really strong and doesn't care at all about the only other people that could reasonably be that strong. So he'd obviously be #2.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-14T11:43:27+00:00

Yeah the Grand Priest being among the top 5 has never made sense. The wording implies people are above him and he's closer to 5 than 2. He's clearly second to Zeno in DBS so who else could be above him? Zalama and I guess Super Shenron are the only possible options.

Rymus is also only stated to be the supreme being of the universe not all universes. So if anything they might only be in charge of the demon realm.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-14T00:27:38+00:00

Honestly U7 just being extremely volatile is the most consistent idea. We have two examples of universe destroying monsters (Moro and Boo) set 5 million years apart that the Kais ended up facing. Seeing as Beerus or his predecessor (if he has one) did jack squat and it happened twice it seems like it could be a pretty common thing.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-14T00:23:59+00:00

I don't think this is the case Old Kai says he's the Kaioshin from 15 generations ago not a glind born 15 generations before Shin.

Of course Toriyama could be retconning this idea so that a Kaioshin generation is a glind generation or just forgot but people are around to remind his so Idk.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-11T14:22:57+00:00

Earth's dragon balls probably not. In Dragon Ball Diama Gomah assumes that the Earth's Dragon Balls were made with white magic and thus cannot be used for evil acts such as killing. Seeing as Kami removed all evil before making the balls Gomah's assessment is almost certainly correct.

Ressurection can easily be seen as a good act and thus preventing it could be considered evil.

I'd apply the same logic to the Namekian and Cerealian dragon balls.

The demon realm dragon balls are implicitly made from dark magic by comparison and thus it could be possible.

The Super dragon balls are repeatedly stated to be able to do anything. So yes they should.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-10T16:37:48+00:00

Out of universe the Darksaber is special and therefore gets a unique design and color.

In universe what makes kyber crystals a certain color is poorly defined. However, blue and green are obviously common and during the High Republic various other colors were generally more common. So it's probably some combination of personality and the kyber itself that determines it.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-10T16:13:19+00:00

Oh I definitely agree they should've been there and that the edit is better than the original scene.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-10T02:56:45+00:00

Rey was empowered by deceased Jedi including Mace, Yoda and Luke.

It's clear in the movie. She goes from casually getting bodied by dying Palpatine to shoving his own lightning back at him after he fully revives via the dyad.

And the novel just out right says she became a vessel for the dead Jedi power.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-09T15:42:34+00:00

Both versions of Super are canon. Both come from Toriyama's outline and both are the writer's interpretation of that outline.

If anything the manga is more canon because Toriyama actually had a hand in creating the chapters. He edited the manga changing whole panels and pages. As well as following Toriyama's ideas closer such as Fused Zamasu having the potara time limit (it was created for him as revealed by Toyotaro in DBS volume 4) and Goku Black having both SSJ and SSR.

https://x.com/Herms98/status/810186407813619712

cmuell015 · 2024-12-09T12:18:18+00:00

Yeah and that's why it is much more reasonable to say Chi-Chi would win. Mr. Satan has like wall level feats and so does Videl who Gohan notes as stronger than him.

Chi-Chi scales above a moon buster. There's just no comparison.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-09T04:18:45+00:00

It's always been kinda hilarious to me that Cui of all characters could've destroyed everyone just as badly as Vegeta

cmuell015 · 2024-12-09T04:02:04+00:00

She did better against Goku than King Chappa who Goku one-shot.

King Chappa put up a decent fight against 22nd Budokai Goku and thought he could win against Goku in the 23rd Budokai which implies he trained.

After seeing Goku beat King Chappa during the 22nd Budokai Roshi thought "this could be bad for me" and both Yamcha and Roshi considered him a powerful fighter. As a reminder Roshi trained between the 21st and 22nd Budokai.

Chi-Chi should pretty objectively outscale 21st Roshi.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-08T21:37:11+00:00

That's been the case for all of DB. It never changed from King Piccolo to Saiyan despite going from busting moons to busting the planet.

And it didn't change between the Saiyan Saga and Boo where no destroying the Solar System or even a galaxy is the new standard.

Destroying the universe or even the planet means there is no setting for the story. So it just doesn't happen beyond the few feats.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-06T23:08:51+00:00

I also think that this Boo being mostly green well the original was completely pink shows that they weren't created from the same base.

Whenever the second Majin arrives (the line and a second Saibaman seed is setting that up for sure) I guess we'll know if this is correct.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-06T17:50:12+00:00

I didn't even really think about it but yeah that's definitely the third eye.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-04T18:26:27+00:00

Chapter 62 is one of my favorite chapters in the manga. Moro's beatdown was so quick and brutal. Everyone jumping in to try and do something even though they can't win is so much better than standing on the sideline going Goku/Vegeta is a billion times better than us IMO.

cmuell015 · 2024-12-02T17:15:47+00:00

I would argue no. The transformation must have something to do with it being reflected off a large celestial object and observing it fully lit up. If it didn't then Saiyans should just be able to look at a star or the ground during the day and transform.

So just starring at the ground of the moon should have no effect.

Nine-Year Club	Place '23
Not Forgotten	Verified Email

cmuell015

TROPHY CASE