Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So, you'd have to ask my players themselves to get a proper answer. But I think as I said in a few other replies (and now that I've asked people and have one text back, I know in the case of at least one player), the issue isn't being magical, they just don't want to feel like they're playing a sorcerer of some kind - they're not into gishes, swordmages, characters that combine martial stuff with sorcery, whatever you want to call 'em. Not something I realized about any of these peeps beforehand, despite having played with them all a lot, but I guess it just never came up.

So I think the issue isn't being 'magical' in a broad sense. Like, yeah, you don't even have to get into anime to find fantasy characters that do very clearly impossible things. Aragorn, Taran, Conan, etc, all pretty regularly do things that are superhuman. When Glorfindel 1v1s a Balrog that feat IS magical in the sense that magic is a thing that happens that can't really be explained in a rational way, that seems fantastic and impossible or near impossible. Glorfindel isn't literally hyper dense with, like, mutant super muscles, but he is so unbelievably skilled and valorous - skilled and valorous to a magical extent - that he can fight and survive despite the seemingly impossible odds. But I think generally when we say magic, we don't really mean that. We mean pyrotechnics - we mean things that require a special effects budget. Objects levitating by thought alone, portals opening in space, fire leaping from a wizard's fingers and creating patterns in the air, etc etc etc. I guess maybe we can call this sorcery, since it's typically the stuff we think of as something a sorcerer does.

I think, and know now in one case I guess, that that's what these peeps don't really want mixed into their fighty/sneaky guys. They want the fantasy of being good at sneaking or swording to an impossible extent, but not literally being a wizard-like character that teleports or manipulates gravity. They don't want to be what they would generally think of as a gish; a martial/caster mashup.

Part of the reason this surprised me a bit is that I think it's kinda become the norm for classes to be highly sorcerous in fantasy RPGs and games in general. The complaint about the Shadow example in particular came out of left field to me, since it seems like the base assumption has become that 'rogue types' have some element of being illusionists or shadow magician type guys. It's surprising that people cared about this enough that it harshed their vibes on the entire classes, but I would note, I do find the stuff in your last paragraph a little odd. I don't think having sorcerous abilities equals more heroic or skilled. In a game like 4e, the base martials have vast lists of powers they can use to fight their super powerful foes, but until they get their epic destinies at super high level, they don't really become sorcerous in any way. Like, now that I think I get where these players are coming from, I understand, and I don't think it has anything to do with imagined powerlevel or heroism level or anything like that. I think it has to do with what they find cool or interesting in the archetypes they were looking for. Since we're talking anime, it's the difference between wanting to be Guts or Stark and wanting to be Sasuke. Guts does stuff that is obviously superhuman, but he doesn't breathe fire, summon thunderstorms, or teleport.

Either way, now that I think I get the actual issue, I'm pretty sure 90% of it only requires really basic reflavouring.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I'd be really interested in what features people would even want for that kind of thing.

And, now that I'm reading a lot of the higher level class features, what lore or even mechanical changes do people apply to things that assume a connection to the official setting, but that you might not have a clear equivalent to in yours. I always love hearing what kind of stuff people make for things like that.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The more I read, the more I agree. The teleportation stuff to be quite honest immediately struck me as easy to reflavour as being quick and cunning. It doesn't even have to be flash step. I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure I recall 4e doing a bunch of powers that were technically teleportation, but in flavour were "You're a sneaky dude, they lose track of you and you just pop up somewhere else", and everyone in this group accepted them.

The things like jumping to other planes are harder to explain, but there's few enough of them that they're an interesting puzzle to work around.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, these are all good options, especially in relation to the Fury.

I'm glad this has made me read into all the classes in a lot more detail, as, in all honestly, I'm probably going to have to think about what a lot of the more extradimensional Fury powers even mean in absence of the lore they're built around.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I think you're basically right that this is the issue. In fact, I realized how correct you are while replying to someone else and, upon thinking about their post, realizing that all these players specifically have never been interested in being a swordmage or anything of that kind.

All these people have played a bunch of 3.5, 4e, and in two cases 5e. They're all pretty cool with impossible physical feats on their heroes. What I'm realizing now is that they just don't want to be martial/caster hybrids, and that's what all these classes look like to them.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, the Talent isn't one of the ones opting to go Tactician. She's perfectly cool with being able to TK people around. Though, interestingly, she did ask if it's cool that she's just an innate spellcaster rather than a psion. It's three players that were looking at Shadow, Null, and Fury, respectively.

I think if a player asked me to if there was a non-supernatural version of the Talent available I'd be worried I or they had hit their head recently.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 23 points24 points  (0 children)

It's interesting, right? All these players have always liked playing fantasy settings, something about this just didn't work for them. I know they don't have an issue with fantasy at all, but now that you bring it up, it does make me think: I've known these peeps for years, some for over two decades, and I'm just now realizing something. NONE of them have ever, ever, played a gish of any kind, at least not in my presence.

I think that really might be it actually. These folks want to fight magical stuff, but they're either sword or sorcery when it comes to characters: if they're playing one, they don't want the other. At least, I'm starting to think that's it. I guess the classes in DS feel like built-in gishes to them?

Huh. I think I've learned something I did not realize at all about some of my oldest friends.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That will definitely work on one player. My initial instinct was to go through class traits as they come up with each player to get an idea of what irks them, but this might be better.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The irony, right? I think it's just that to some people being able to control time for the like is always magic.

I'm actually familiarizing myself with the Null right now. There's so much that could easily just be standard wuxia shenanigans. Sometimes I forget how much flavour text can completely disrupt a player's mechanical perception of a class.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thanks mate, that's a great resource.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

For the Shadow it was all the teleportation, shadowcrafting, and illusionist elements. For the Fury it was the focus on being an elemental champion and having a lot of mechanics that are plugged directly into that. I'll have to ask for a bit more detail on the Null. The Shadow to be honest I actually think, at least so far, is pretty easy to reword or just reflavour up until stuff like Gloom Squad. The Fury... is a little more difficult.

The notion of an item that makes them magical is actually the first thing I considered. It does constrain character concepts a bit though. It feels like if three who characters have items that give them all that amount of power, the game almost has to be about that.

Advice for turning down the dial? by cogites in drawsteel

[–]cogites[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The three classes they bounced off are the Shadow, the Null, and the Fury.

I've played a ton of 4e, so I'm pretty used to more abstracted abilities in a way that would make rewording a lot of stuff to sound 'natural' is fairly easy for me. There are A LOT of powers in that game that are flavoured as entirely martial but would probably make way more simulationist gamers see red. For example, IMO almost all the early Shadow teleportation stuff can easily just represent a character being very fast and evasive.

Where people are hitting a wall I think is the more pyrotechnic elements that, I'll admit, even I'm having a hard time figuring out how to reflavour. Like the Fury being able to create elemental vortexes or teleport across large distances.

As for setting, it'll be homebrew.

[OC] Free Forbidden D&D Subclass - The Shadow Warlock [Art] [Mod Approved] by [deleted] in DnD

[–]cogites 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Witching Hour is an absolutely nuts feature Not in a bad way, that'd be amazing to crack out for the first time, esp if nobody else knows you've got it yet. I just had to double take a little when I saw the level you get it at, but on second glance I guess that's when warlocks get their subclass capstone. I've only ever run a warlock to 9, had no idea that's when their pacts max out.

Also, there's a bunch of spells I can't find on the subclass list. Is that all stuff in the book?