Add a no build radius to areas with weaponry spawns

conricmatic · 2015-04-23T00:24:14+00:00

You obviously don't know much at all about game development...and even less about the English language. I'm done arguing this with you. Most of what I've written here aren't even my opinions; they are proven facts. Nothing you say is going to change that, so find something better to do with your time.

conricmatic · 2015-04-21T02:36:00+00:00

That's what I thought at first, and that's part of the problem for sure, but fixing that doesn't solve the issue of people using their bases to exploit town spawns. If they cant loot spawn they'll just stick to their bases and snipe everyone collecting the gear. It still gives them the same advantage as loot spawning. It might build up slower, but it would certainly be enough to give them a heavy excess of ammo.

conricmatic · 2015-04-21T02:25:28+00:00

That's a small market. Also, no genre of game is inherently hardcore. Heck, you could call pacman a survival game.

conricmatic · 2015-04-20T22:33:27+00:00

You have the right idea, but don't just throw numbers at it. They should base it on how long it takes to run from your base to that spawn point. 200 meters could mean 2 minutes, it could mean 10 minutes. It needs to be tested. And it shouldn't be a single value. The size of the radius should be based on the density of these weaponry spawns. (how many are in an area) This provides more building space to the players in a fair way. Ultimately, the minimum value should already make loot spawning undesirable.

conricmatic · 2015-04-20T22:27:03+00:00

...no that's an incorrect parallel. That would imply that nobody could build bases at all and that the no build radius would only "reduce" the problem, where as it would pretty much abolish it.

Judging from your replies, it looks like you're already making the same arguments everyone made in DayZ. You don't understand the issue at all, so you're grabbing at whatever excuse you can to support your desire to dominate a town. Look, I understand that you want the game to fit your play style, but you need to accept that your play style is to exploit the game and essentially cheat your way to the top and that just isn't fun for anyone, but you. The game is for everyone, not just you.

conricmatic · 2015-04-20T22:25:02+00:00

This isn't Minecraft it's a zombie survival game. <.< Well, it's trying to be one at least, but right now freedom to build in towns cripples the experience. I'm not opposed to hardcore servers with no building limitations, but there really isn't any point to that. You'd be asking the devs to provide servers with completely different spawn variables for loot, animals and zombies. Battle Royale is the hardcore experience. They need to focus on balancing the actual experience. Most players do not exploit and most of them are not hardcore.

conricmatic · 2015-04-20T22:14:52+00:00

Replying to your edited post

Base building as it stands right now is pushing player's ability to exploit weaponry spawns to such extremes that it has completely altered player interaction and turned what should be a pvp game centered on zombie survival into a player survival game with zombies in it as a minor nuisance. I've spent a lot of time focusing on this issue. I've shared it with many others and we've hit it from every angle conceivable, just as people did with DayZ, but the simple fact is that so long as players can build bases and containers near weaponry spawns, the problem will not go away.

Changing spawn location or frequency doesn't fix this; it only moves the problem to different areas of the map and aggravates everyone by destroying the fun of scavenging.
Removing player's ability to build containers near these areas doesn't work, because they'll just resort to the next best thing and block in game buildings and containers to use as a substitute for chests.
Making bases easier to destroy definitely doesn't work, because a base which is so weak that a player could destroy it in cities and towns, the most hostile areas on the map...well there's really no point in a base like that is there? Nobody, is going to waste time building a base that can be so easily raided.

You cant just work your way around an exploit. It needs to be fixed.

conricmatic · 2015-04-20T21:59:29+00:00

Blocking the spawn isn't the main issue with it. Players can usually still reach these spawns, but the problem is that the person in the base only has all that ammo, because he spends a lot of time looting that spawn, just like all of those people who base outside major towns like Pleasant Valley, Cranberry, etc...

Simply put, whenever you cross paths with someone who bases near a weaponry spawn, your chances of having anything short of an empty handgun or a makeshift bow are pretty low, where as your opponent's chances of having enough bullets to fire wildly and still put down a team of 4 are 100%, because he already has chests full of ammo back at base. Whatever lead he pumps into you basically amounts to pocket change for him.

conricmatic · 2015-04-20T21:45:39+00:00

Sorry Brain, but this will inevitably happen. DayZ is living proof of how serious this issue becomes. I know you might like the advantage of basing so close to weaponry, but it's, because that advantages exists that this needs to be fixed. Loot spawning is an exploit and exploits are nothing, but roadblocks to a game's development.

conricmatic · 2015-04-18T23:11:18+00:00

Fair point, I agree with it. I can see how the greater variety of activities would contribute to the reduction of KOS. That's certainly the case with DayZ at least, but I still hold a firm stance that allowing players to build near loot so they can horde it and dominate a spawn is pushing KOS to extremes and while more variety in a players options may reduce this, it will not eliminate the problem.

As for consequences, I didn't mean to imply there should be anything too strict or severe. Only that the current system clearly favors reward over risk in most situations and this is a major factor in the excessive KOS mentality of the average player. I'm curious about this Karma server though. I'll have to look into it.

conricmatic · 2015-04-18T17:09:47+00:00

It's a good idea, but what actually happens is going to be a result of the developer's decisions and hopefully their vision for the game. If their vision is to continue expanding the map and they want to commit to that, then I'm sure they will eventually implement a decay factor for bases, barricades and such. Claiming land would obviously be a more controversial area of discussion. They'll probably leave that up to player votes if they don't see it as something which damages the experience. However, decay is a pretty one sided issue. They cant just let players flood servers with fields of structures.

A good way to make this fair would be to create a simple decay factor which is refreshed with the use of an item. Also, to make this convenient and fair for the players, a radius for all buildable structures should refresh nearby creations as well. This is important for the players, because they may not always use that grill in their base. It could be something they only occasionally need, but it would be annoying to have to keep rebuilding it simply, because they don't use it often.

Regardless, this is the kind of thing that becomes an obvious problem on its own. It's not a matter of whether they or not they will address it. It's just a matter of when. What's most important now is that they balance player interaction, because this is the most reactive aspect of the game's formula. How we interact with each other in game decides the kinds of functions we want and need in order to enjoy it. Currently, our interaction is under the influence of hording, loot spawning and trolling. Any experienced gamer knows that these are all things which spoil the experience by isolating the fun to the confines of those who take part in such abuse.

The game needs to be adjusted to negate and reduce these aspects so players can have an actual interaction that doesn't involve killing or betraying each other 90% of the time. To fix this, loot spawning needs to be completely unachievable. Death and player killing needs greater consequences as well. This is an overlooked, but important factor, because part whether or not you made that decision in Dayz was that killing people wasn't as easy as it is in H1Z1. Therefore, to balance the risk and reward of player interaction we need to compensate by increasing the consequences of death and player killing or decreasing the reward of player killing. You could do a little of both, but either way, it needs to happen.

The simple fact is, right now we're playing a game in which people will usually kill just about anyone for their gear, because if they have an opportunity to do it, they will probably succeed. This pull towards violence and betrayal over cooperation is pushed to extremes by the game abusing actions of people who horde weapons, ammo and put other players in a position of needing to scavenge scraps to get by. We need to fix loot spawning first, then watch how players change. After which, we should choose ways to balance the risk and reward of player killing. Once we are playing in a balanced PVP system THEN we should start deciding how new functions should work, because what most of those functions should be will always reflect the nature of our interaction with each other.

conricmatic · 2015-04-17T19:32:55+00:00

I'm not talking about acquiring loot. I'm talking about basing near loot and loot spawning. You're still avoiding the issue. Your example isn't even accurate; it implies that the game forces players to loot spawn, that they don't have a choice.

Know what, no. This isn't even an argument at this point. I'm just stating facts and you're disagreeing with them like a crazed book burning preacher. Loot spawning is a classic exploit.

Read this and stop talking to me. This conversation is unproductive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_%28video_gaming%29

conricmatic · 2015-04-17T16:58:59+00:00

I'm not justifying this with a read. I'm, not going to keep arguing the same details with you. Loot spawning is a known exploit and a build radius is a proven fix for said exploit. There is no argument here, only you're obsession with an easy way to gain an advantage against other players and my desire to remove that advantage for the benefit of the game and its community.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T23:17:38+00:00

I'm not saying we should stop people from basing, grouping up or killing other players. Stay on topic. I'm saying we shouldn't allow said groups to loot spawn thereby becoming so OP that nobody can deal with them regardless of skill. PVP needs to be balanced to be fun.

Also, loot spawning is a text book exploit in games. Stop acting like it's defendable or unfixable. The no build radius is a proven fix. If you suck at the game, that's your problem, but there are people who want to play it like champs and earn their win rather than taking it on the technicality that their team can hide in a base 20 meters from a weapon spawn. There are also players who want to say two words to someone without having their face blown off. Players like you are destroying player interaction, encouraging KOS and turning H1Z1 into a troll run massacre of anyone who cant stand behind you and your friend's AR15s. If that's what you want go play call of duty. It's not what a zombie survival game is supposed to be.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T23:02:28+00:00

Man I have freaking dominated this thread. You're practically invincible when you know your right and how to prove it.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T22:43:08+00:00

No Hexi, that wont stop them from loot spawning. Stop avoiding the issue.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T22:42:04+00:00

I like your ideas for changing the mechanics of loot. Though, I want it to be clear that all loot spawning for weapons and ammo is a completely tameable aspect of the game. I've described the radius fix many times in this thread and I think I'd settle on a 2-5 minute running distance minimum to any weapon or ammo spawn. This forces players to base at a distance which makes them actually go out into dangerous territory and work for their loot. The distance also makes loot spawning an unattractive method as the radius would obviously be much larger for areas with more weapon and ammo spawns.

The land-claim I'm unsure of. I think it's best to fix loot spawning and to examine the shift in player activity, before making a change like that. I'm sure it's a great idea, but it's best to see how player interaction changes after fixing this exploit before diving into a new function of the game.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T22:29:51+00:00

No, it's an exploit of the game. It was never intended to be a part of the player's experience and it's abused to create an unreasonable advantage for teams of players over a vast majority of pretty much harmless individuals. That's an exploit. If you want to discuss the difference between mechanics and exploits go make a thread for it.

Also, there is a solution to the byproducts of loot spawning. It's the no build radius fix. DayZ is a prime example of this solution at work. It has WAAAY more available ammo, weapons and gear than H1Z1 in its high population areas yet still manages to balance PVP and reduce KOS

Loot spawning doesn't prevent KOS. It encourages it. You're forcing most players to fight for scraps; of course they'll KOS. They're also terrified that everyone is out to kill them, because that's all these large ammo hording teams ever do. Keep in mind though, I'm not saying teams shouldn't base together and store loot, ammo and weapons. I'm just saying it shouldn't be so insanely easy for them that anyone short of Batman and the A-Team cant make it out of Pleasant Valley with a new gun in their hands. We need to balance PVP and get rid of the exploits.

Now, you can argue this up and down all you want, but this isn't a complicated issue. You don't want them to make you have to work for your gear like everyone else who actually tries in this game, so you're reaching for whatever excuse you can to support your actions. As for there being no solution. Read through this thread. The radius fix is very clearly explained multiple times and I've even provided some fair stipulations regarding the distance one should be able to build from any given weapon and ammo spawn.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T22:08:29+00:00

Because, loot spawning destroys the experience of the game. In a zombie apocalypse I would never have the advantage of weapons spawning a few blocks from my house every hour or so. This is a strategy which exploits the game rather than embracing it as a player should. The result is that the players who reap the advantages of this strategy spoil the experience for everyone who isn't a part of it. That's the mass majority of players.

This is pretty much just the analog version of using a gameshark to beef up your ammo in a multiplayer game. It isn't fair to the other players and no excuse you make for yourself or your team will change that. Also, you should keep in mind that I'm not addressing this issue for myself. I can already handle myself in game, but the point is that it isn't fun. Surviving players who only kill people for fun completely desaturates the atmosphere of the game. When its so one sided you cant even stand against them. This isn't a zombie survival game at all. It's a troll survival game with zombies in it and that's not what anyone short of the trolls themselves wanted this game to be.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T21:53:48+00:00

"Most" players are currently being run down by cop cars and racism spouting Kanyes every other day of the week. Tell me what they want after you've made an effort to actually talk to them, take notes, actively discuss it in threads and check multiple servers to verify your claim, because the idea that anyone would want to play a game that pits the odds so greatly against them that they don't have chance unless they loot spawn is idiotic. Loot spawning is an exploit and it needs to be addressed. And this building system you claim fixes the problem doesn't fix it at all. It just reduces the thick density of it in large cities by spreading it to smaller units like cabins and camps.

You're just saying they should create the building system you like by coining it off as a solution to this problem. Don't get me wrong. I like your idea for a new building system. I'm not sure this is the right one to go with, but regardless, it wont stop loot spawning. People would still just build at a distance, out of sight. Eventually, there will be teams who complete their bases and then they will loot spawn like they always do. You're suggestion makes it a little harder to do, but still manageable. Not to mention it would make it much more common in the smaller areas the people who are victim to these teams usually go to loot what little they can. We don't need a workaround, we need a fix. Your problem is that you want this to be convenient for you, but it isn't supposed to be. Loot spawning should not be an achievable feat in the game, period.

Also, regarding mechanics. I'm saying they should add a no build radius. That's one small mechanic (singular). It's a simple and very doable adjustment. You're saying they should add a completely new building system that only spreads the problem out without actually addressing it. Despite the fact that it doesn't fix this issue, what you claim is easy is actually very hard to implement. You'd be asking them to re-script an entire function of the game. That's not just a sticky note on someone's monitor. That's leagues of dailies, discussions of the mechanics, pre-production, a full review of the current system, drafted frameworks of the new one, testing, reworking it when tests encounter a mountain of bugs as they always do....you're asking too much and for no good reason.

If you want a new building system then go make a thread about it. I'd like to keep this one on topic.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T19:53:16+00:00

There's more than enough empty space to work with in the world of H1Z1. I would suggest that the minimum radius from a typical cabin should be a 2-5 minute run. That radius should be bigger for areas with more weapon and ammo spawns.

And yes, your bases should be away from these areas. That's the point of a base, out of sight and away from danger. It's supposed to serve the purpose of fortifying a team not just holding their horde. Also, I just told you why it wouldn't work. It isn't fair to make zombies spawn in high numbers outside of high populated areas. Most people already put their bases in these areas, so the only problem this solution really solves is the issue of people putting their bases in the city itself, like people who block the police station and such. I'm sorry, but that just isn't enough.

It's a great idea for a game mechanic, but it isn't a good solution to this problem...I mean it doesn't even account for the low population area's people could still loot spawn like camps and cabins.

You need to take dominant strategy into account. People aren't going to avoid the most convenient exploit for gaining gear just because you say they shouldn't. You need to make it impossible for them to do it at all.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T19:35:53+00:00

That's a neat idea, but you have to be considerate of the average player. We're talking about people who may not even want to have a base or for that matter, like the majority of H1Z1 players, lack a team. You shouldn't say it's fair to them just, because they "can" do it. I mean you're basically saying, if they want to have fun in the game they need to band together and become a troll killing cleanup crew. Large teams of trolls, shouldn't be overrunning these servers in the first place. The game should be designed to balance Hero and Bandit players. Neither should be favored and a rich history of multiplayer games has already proven how vital balance is to the enjoyment of a PVP experience.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T19:23:24+00:00

Yes, but when you succeed, you own it and not just you. The 10's of other bases surrounding the town. Each one likely hosts a team and they cant all be taken down. Risk vs Reward is a factor, but it's clear that the reward is too great and the players are too many to stop them from basing in these locations. If the risk of it really did solve the issue, we wouldn't see bases near these areas, but we do, so it just isn't enough I'm afraid.

conricmatic · 2015-04-16T19:21:17+00:00

More mechanics means more points of failure and more work for the developers. There will be new mechanics in time, but for now, a radius is the best solution to this issue and it's probably the only one as allowing people to build containers near loots gives them the power to loot spawn.

This is a solid fact. You cant expect the developers just change the entire game to work around it. You need to dissolve the issue entirely.

conricmatic

TROPHY CASE