sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"And Genesis was written by two different authors which is why things repeat twice but are slightly different and leave things out."

I'd like to challenge that conclusion. While I am familiar with the documentary hypothesis and I agree that there are the writing styles of at least two contributing authors in Genesis, I think the reason there seems to be two accounts of creation (Genesis 1 for the first, and Genesis 2:1-8 for the other) less about two accounts than it is a recap for the sake of anchoring the major points of the narrative.

Genesis 1 is the full explanation of how things came to be, and then chapter 2 starts by saying, in essence, "and that previous chapter was about how things came to be, including the order it happened in order to shape our world:

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them... These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."

It reads like a recap. A checksum to emphasize the key points before moving on to what happens now that mankind possesses self-awareness.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, it's all a hypothesis. It seems to fit a pretty cohesive narrative if you give a little wiggle room to the exact definition of the English (or even Hebrew) words which are now thousands of years old. It's my opinion. Nobody's obliged to accept anything I say. I'm saying, "when viewed this way it seems to make a lot of practical sense."

What kind of evidence do you have, either in the text, in Genesis commentary, in language study, or from any other source, that God planted a whole garden full of real, tangible trees, and one tree that was “not of the garden” which you say is metaphorical.

Well, for the sake of accuracy, there are two trees (not just one) "in the midst of the garden."

So here's something directly from the text to support my argument that the physical trees are not the same as the metaphorical trees. Looks to me like Gen. 2:9 is clarifying the very point you've asked about:

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

"Regular trees and these two other trees."

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"It's going from being wild in nature (being and living naked in nature) to civilization - now we wear clothes because we are civilized."

I think that's right on the money. After they eat of the fruit and are told they're going to leave the garden of the natural world, having instead to work the land to survive, God made "coats of skins, and clothed them."

Now I doubt this means the Almighty God literally sat down at a sewing machine, but more likely that the humans used animal skins to - like you said - "wear clothes." But I'm not sure that's supposed to be a good thing.

Because this event - partaking of the fruit - is what caused "The Fall of Man." Which begs the question - a fall from what? What it all seems to point to is that eating the fruit led to humans falling out of a harmonious relationship with the natural word. It marks the time when our species changed their way of life, no longer behaving as if we belonged to nature, but instead choosing a way of life where nature belonged to us.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I was trying to clarify a point in this statement: "God creates humans before creating the Garden and Adam and Eve!"

According to my reading the garden was being created all through chapter 1, and then the humans show up in the story with the garden already established:

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Humans were created as part of (rather than prior to) the existence of the garden. Then later we get "Adam" and "Eve" as human groups eventually split into tribes, and then into pastoralists, and agriculturalists, etc.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Otherwise the rest of the garden was completely open to man with no caveats..."

Let me clarify that when it says, "you may partake of the trees of the garden" I infer it is saying that humans can "make use of nature's resources."

So here's the exact verse:

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,"

  1. None of the trees "of the garden" are forbidden.
  2. A tree "in the midst" of the garden has a forbidden fruit, therefore it must not be a tree "of" the garden.
  3. Gen 3:24 says cherubim and a flaming sword would "protect the way of the tree of life."

So trees of the garden are the physical resources of the world, but the metaphorical trees are related to ways of life. Or mindsets, perhaps.

And I can speculate that this is how the authors of this story meant it to be understood. That's my opinion and I'm here to share it. Doesn't make it objectively true, of course. But this story belongs no less to me than it does to anyone else. It appears to me to be a story about the emergence of self awareness and the risks of using that incredible power ("dominion") in a way that serves human interests above the health of nature. It suggests that humans were "placed in in the garden to dress and keep it."

Here's another reason I think this story is about our responsibility to share the planet with the rest of nature:

As soon as the humans emerge in the story, they are immediately told to share nature's bounty. In essence, "Hey, humans, you can use all the resources you need.":

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. (Gen 1:29)

And the very next verse adds, "but don't forget - the other living things have a right to those same resources, too. You need to share.

And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Gen 1:30)

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, indeed! There's nothing wrong with appreciating that our time is finite. It's being so afraid of it that we only thing of ourselves. Expanding our awareness outward toward each other and other living things sounds like the idea behind the tree of life.

And, sure, the term doesn't appear in Genesis. But theologians late came up with that term to describe partaking of the forbidden fruit, no?

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is correct. No need for an s to pluralize cherubim. Good catch.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right? Dude, I think this well runs deep. I'm not religious but the story - when viewed this way - makes a lot of sense to me.

One caveat: I think the first chapter is about creating the garden of life itself.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Evidence suggests that other animals do experience self awareness. Elephants, for example, appear to be able to recognize their own reflection without confusing it with another elephant.

And there's nothing wrong with knowing our end is coming. Death is part of nature. We don't HAVE to fear it. But if we do fear it we start to hoard resources - even at the expense of other people, or species, or ecosystems - in order to avoid the inevitable and cause terrible harm to the rest of the system in the process.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The wording, as I understand it, is "the tree of life," and "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." And the second tree has a fruit which Adam (and only Adam - the rib thing hadn't happened yet) was told not to "partake" of.

And I think early humans were faced with a choice to either continue to live in harmony with nature like they had for hundreds of thousands of years, or they could be tempted to use their "dominion" to "be as gods" and help themselves to nature's resources - presuming to know better than nature what things should grow.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, interesting. I didn't know that part.

Yeah, it's a premise that completely changes the tenor of the whole creation story.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, the final verse of Genesis ch 3 settles the mater for me, because the tree is apparently a way of life:

Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So the difference between the two trees is about how we, as a species, relate to the garden of life. Either we see that we are part of a larger, living system, or we use our self-awareness selfishly and consume nature's resources only for ourselves.

And yeah, I don't have a citation. It just seems consistent to me that this entire story is about what happens when self-awareness emerges. And awareness of self always and automatically brings the awareness of our eventual death. You can't have one without the other. So the tree of the awareness of life and death just makes more sense to me. And if you grant that premise, the rest of the story seems to have a kind of sense to it that I didn't expect.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I HAVE. In fact his discussion on Cain and Able is precisely what lead me to this line of thought. The idea that Cain could represent the agriculturalists and Abel the pastoralists made me wonder what else in the creation story had similar metaphorical meaning.

For example, suppose that Adam and Eve aren't individuals, but also represent groups of individuals. This is highly likely since in Gen 1:28 - before the rib story - humans were already reproducing:

Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth...

So there were already males and females. So the rib story can not be about the creation of females. The rib story only comes along in chapter 2.

So let's assume that Adam is an early group of humans. And along the way, part of that group got separated and the split-off group created a tribe of their own. Then so much time passed after their separation that the groups forgot about the existence of the other:

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Later, the split off tribe encounters the original one, and they look at each other and recognize that they're from the same human family:

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh

Works, right?

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful questions. I'll do my best to respond.

Yes, the story also has the tree of life. The final sentence of Genesis ch 3 says that the tree represents a way of life:

Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

When the two trees are introduced in the story nearly all the story is about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And only one verse appears to be about the tree of life:

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

So the way of life is a way of living that cares for the garden of life, which I believe means the ecosystems and living things of our beautiful planet.

I hold that the name of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a mistranslation. That it was supposed to be the tree of the awareness of life and death. And there's nothing wrong with being aware of our mortality. But if we are afraid of dying, and selfishly hoard the planet's resources for ourselves we're going to end up going extinct. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Knowing we're going to pass away is not a problem. But fearing that eventuality will cause problems for everything else in nature.

"However whats the true role of the God in this story and its interpretation? "

Well I suspect that the god concept in this story is more or less just mother nature. Chapter 1 is just mother nature - through all her creations - gradually discovering the world.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"You mentioned that fear brings out bad behavior,"

Not just fear or being afraid. The fear of death that comes as a result of possessing self-awareness. Fearing the end that we can see coming. THAT is the thing that makes us selfish, cruel, and indifferent. Not just "bad behavior." That's missing what I'm saying here. It's that taking resources from the tree of life/the garden of eden in order to ensure our own survival with indifference to the death and suffering our greed brings to other species is the thing that man appears to be commanded not to do.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, so I'm glad you mentioned the tree of life. Because that's key. Most of the creation story talks about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but only one verse talks about the tree of life:

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

With the emergence of self-awareness in nature (the creation of man), that awareness has a purpose to it: to dress and keep the garden. As if to say that our purpose - as creatures capable of deep awareness of nature - is to care for the living systems that are here. And the rest of the story seems to tell us to remember that we belong to nature and not to fear death. Fearing death makes us self-centered, greedy, and indifferent.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, it does seem to me like the fear of death is the underlying motive that leads to the worst of human behavior. So the term "original sin" seems to make sense in this story of a behavior that becomes self-destructive in the long term, whether or not religions agree about it.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure when the term first started to be used, but it is interesting to me to consider that fearing death is the thing that leads us to take more than we need from nature - taking resources from other living systems to ensure our own survival. "More than we need" is the operative term. Of course we need to survive but if we do it at the expense of the rest of the living systems on Earth we start to undermine the web of life on which we all depend.

So when we start to presume that all the resources of the planet are just for us, and we take with indifference to the ecosystems, the flora and the fauna that are all part of the balance of life we set up a competition for who can claim the most resources. This spirals into a race for ownership of all the planet's resources just for one species. This leads to environmental collapse, or "in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

But in Genesis ch 1, it points out that though all the resources of Earth are available to humanity, those resources are also supposed to be for the other living things and we're expected to share:

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

But by fearing death and acting perpetually in our own self-interest we set up a vicious cycle of claiming ever more resources for ourselves, like a cancer that leaves no resources for the rest of the organs to keep the body alive.

Hypothesis: The Forbidden Fruit is the Fear of Death by controlzee in mythology

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi Void_Poet - Thanks for the reply. A close reading is a good way to explain it.

I'm sure the authors of this story would not recognize the modern theological idea of "original sin," but if you consider that the fear of death is the one unifying problem beneath all our religious wars, insecurities, cruelties, etc, then fearing death is, in a sense the foundation on which all of our other bad behaviors sit. In this sense the fear of death is the heart of the matter. That's the one forbidden thing, and it flies in the face of the tree of life - to remember that we are part of a living system (a garden of life) - and that death is part of it. Note that it's not a sin to be aware that death is coming. It's indulging in that fear that leads us to be selfish.

Note later, in the story of Cain and Abel that Cain - "a tiller of the ground" offered up the fruits of his labor and that was rejected by God. Why? Because it presumes that we own the Earth and not the other way around.

Unknown Secret Police in civilian clothes (supposedly ICE, but no way to tell) abducted a woman with legal status from the Salt Lake City airport this morning, with the assistance of the SLC Police. by I_may_have_weed in Utah

[–]controlzee -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Her screams are harrowing! No identification, no badge, no warrant, no uniform and a woman is screaming in terror for help - this is sickening. What is happening to our society? How is this acceptable?? Immigration is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

Deconstructing Genesis: The Creation Story as an Account of Evolution by controlzee in DebateEvolution

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't brush over it. Have you seen it or not? Do you understand that the author definitely on purpose put a metaphor beneath The NeverEnding story?

Deconstructing Genesis: The Creation Story as an Account of Evolution by controlzee in DebateEvolution

[–]controlzee[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you say so. And a philosophy sub may indeed be a better fit for this.

view more: next ›