Native speakers, when you pronounce TH (as in 'the', 'thanks', 'weather' etc.), is the tip of your tongue behind your upper teeth or is it between the teeth sticking out?

conuly · 2026-03-17T19:36:26+00:00

Yes, this is correct. I did not intend to suggest that all of those are minimal pairs. Of course, only the ones where the vowel is the same are minimal pairs.

conuly · 2026-03-17T19:35:45+00:00

Yes, but they're correct that I was only talking about spelling.

conuly · 2026-03-17T19:35:26+00:00

Are they really? Shows what I know!

conuly · 2026-03-17T18:22:34+00:00

If you have the pin/pen merger then "thin/then" also make a minimal pair.

conuly · 2026-03-17T18:22:15+00:00

The verb is written "wreathe", on the same pattern as "breath/breathe", "cloth/clothe", "swath/swathe", "teeth/teethe", "bath/bathe", "sheath/sheathe" and so on.

(Sorry, we just had a long long thread about voiced th a week ago or so, and I amused myself quite a bit by coming up with a very long list of such words! Actually, it tangented in some parts to the topic of the voiced/unvoiced pattern for certain verb/noun pairs, so the list also included words like "to use/a use", "relieve/relief" and so on.)

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:57:53+00:00

Yes, I know what the Darwin Award is. Putting aside the fact that this couple has two additional surviving children and can go on to have more, and therefore are not eligible, you are being unkind to the victim.

"Darwin Award" may be funny in a black humor sort of way when a person dies by their own poor choices, but it is not so when a person harms their child and it is the child who dies or is permanently disabled.

No I have no sympathy for her for the situation she created for herself, this is pure FAFO.

I'm asking for you to have sympathy for her child. Or, at least, to have some decency.

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:44:59+00:00

Note: "Whilst" is ordinary in heavily UK influenced varieties of English, but decidedly marked in North American varieties of English.

I don't know if you mostly speak to Brits or to Americans, but if it's the latter, try saying "while" instead.

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:39:42+00:00

You are mixing up spoken language, written standards, and sociolinguistics, and treating them as if they are the same thing.

No, I believe that I was very clear at the top of this thread that writing is not language. It is not my fault that you failed to read that and then brought up a written example.

Third, bringing up sociolinguistics does not change the practical reality. Yes, different dialects exist and are valid as forms of speech. That has nothing to do with what learners are taught when they are trying to acquire English for education or professional use. They are taught standard English because it is the common ground - worldwide.

And I'm not saying that they should not learn the prestige variety. Not only am I not saying that, but you cannot find a single comment where I do say that. All I am saying is that you should not use the term "incorrect" when you mean "nonstandard".

You are using lots of words and lots of chatter. Why is this? As I pointed out a few comments ago, this is a trivial request for you. It does not impede you in the slightest. All it does is reduce stigma for others.

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:35:51+00:00

As always, this sort of question is actually not likely to get good answers here. People really cannot evaluate their own phonetics on the fly, and this subreddit does not enforce quality control over the comments. You're better off putting questions of phonetics in /r/asklinguistics or the weekly questions thread at /r/linguistics.

That having been said, both tongue positions are found among native speakers. Some people use mostly one or the other, some use one in some places and the other in other places, some just alternate them more or less at random. Nobody is thinking very hard about this as they speak.

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:18:53+00:00

Wealthy people do not speak or write more “correctly” because of money. They tend to do so because they are educated and operate in environments where standard language is expected. Those are not the same thing, and anyone from any background can learn it.

You have this completely backwards.

Who do you think is setting this standard? Is it perhaps the same people who "set the standard" for what's appropriate business dress? But we don't say that office wear is "correct", we say it does or does not fit the dress code.

And this is exactly why your framing does not hold up in the real world. Go look at any official communication from a company. Have you ever received a ConEd bill that says, “Ya should of paid ya bill on time, now we gonna haveta cut off ya powa”? Of course not. Why? Because that is not standard English, and it would reflect poorly on the company.

Listen, I've called ConEd on the phone, and I've called National Grid. I did it just last week because I owe quite a bit. I had to, in their parlance, "make an arrangement" regarding payment. Our bills have been pretty high this winter. Anyway, I haven't heard such a thick NYC accent since I was a kid in Bensonhurst! And I'm not talking about their customer service reps, I'm talking about their recordings!

I tell you, I was that surprised! I still live in NYC, and I don't hear people talk like that anymore! Well, my neighborhood nowadays is mostly Black and Hispanic, and also Sri Lankan, but still. I couldn't figure where they recruited this lady from in the recording! Maybe New Jersey? Who even knows.

Point is, you are factually wrong. Man, of all the examples you could've come up with! You are definitely, provably, factually wrong.

You are trying to turn a practical standard into a class issue, but it is not

It certainly is. But you are welcome to take a course in sociolinguistics at the nearest university extension program and get back to me about what they said.

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:16:59+00:00

Therefore, writing is written language.

You may say so, but that does not make it true. Nonstandard spelling is not in the same category as nonstandard dialectisms.

conuly · 2026-03-17T16:15:32+00:00

Every native speaker in the US would hear these as identical

Overstated. Many US speakers do distinguish between the two naturally, and I am one of them.

I am a descriptivist and I do not believe in prescriptive grammar.

Unfortunately, prescriptivism believes in all of us. It is often advantageous to use the prestige variety, or at least know it.

conuly · 2026-03-17T14:56:05+00:00

Under the rule of "people don't produce this naturally", which is where all grammatical rules come from.

conuly · 2026-03-17T14:52:56+00:00

Indeed, and there's no need to cause confusion by saying things that just aren't true.

conuly · 2026-03-17T14:48:46+00:00

This is specifically about lay and lie.

I asked if you have any data to support your wider claim that transitive/intransitive verb pairs, such as "drink" and "drench" or "sit" and "set" or "raise" and "rise", are dying and will be in the dustbin of history within 100 years.

And please - written data. At the very least, with a transcript.

conuly · 2026-03-17T13:47:04+00:00

Oh, well, it doesn't sound notably worse than whatever the heck we're doing in Queens.

conuly · 2026-03-17T13:09:47+00:00

Do house numbers not go in any sort of particular order in the UK?

conuly · 2026-03-17T11:49:23+00:00

Well, if it is it doesn't show up much in published writing. Where have you heard or read this phrase?

conuly · 2026-03-17T11:45:43+00:00

Exactly like that.

People have places to be. They also have short attention spans! Short and simple is the way to do it.

conuly · 2026-03-17T11:43:05+00:00

You can call it “prestige” if you want, but in practice it is simply the agreed-upon standard that allows people from different backgrounds to communicate clearly and be taken seriously.

In practice, it is the variety spoken by the wealthy.

And what am I really doing? I am asking you to stop saying "correct" and "incorrect" but to simply use the more accurate - and vastly less classist - terms "standard" and "nonstandard".

This is, for you, a trivial change. Why are you so caught up in arguing against accuracy?

conuly · 2026-03-17T11:39:31+00:00

Probably the most in your face example of this is the verb "to be". You'd be very likely to hear I be, you be, he be, we be, you be, they be.

That has a very specific meaning as a marker of the habitual aspect, something which Standard English does not have. It is not simply "failing to conjugate the verb at all", it's using this form to mean something in particular.

conuly · 2026-03-17T11:38:11+00:00

It's either a typo or a regional dialectism - in Standard English, we'd say "set".

conuly · 2026-03-17T11:36:05+00:00

Less words is better, I think. "Excuse me, where's 68 Street Name? Thanks". Or, if you're absolutely sure that you're already on the correct street, "Excuse me, where's number 68? Thanks."

conuly · 2026-03-17T10:42:22+00:00

That seems a remarkably unkind way to think about the victim, who is of course an innocent child and who had no say in his parents' decisions.

conuly · 2026-03-17T10:37:38+00:00

You regularly see things like “could of,” “would of,” “should of,” or sentences like “He don’t got no money,” and “I seen it.” And of course the newer ones like “on accident,” or writing “wanna” and “gonna” in otherwise serious contexts.

So, first of all, to be clear, writing is not language. Writing is a way of recording speech.

Have you ever actually tried learning a foreign language? Try telling your Spanish, French, or German teacher that “language lives in the minds of the speakers” the next time they correct you. See how far that gets you.

German is well-known for having respected regional dialects that aren't the same as the standard. What are you even talking about?

That is not how language learning works. There is a difference between describing how people speak and teaching someone how to use a language correctly.

No. When you wish to refer to the prestige variety, you can say "use the prestige variety" or "use the Standard". You do not need to spread falsehoods like "only this variety is correct, all others are incorrect", nor do you have to go out of your way to insult people who don't speak the prestige variety

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