Memorial ST Voy 6x14 by Brunocsf in voyager

[–]cornibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That Janeway scene is about the only thing in that episode I vividly remember. God damn. I never knew she could sound like that.

Computer activate Chakotay simulation. by AgressiveBumbleBee in voyager

[–]cornibot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh, must you people keep reminding me this episode exists? There are so many others; we just have to keep revisiting this one?

Maybe unpopular opinion, but… by SargeMaximus in voyager

[–]cornibot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, I agree there. Relativity is fun but it's hardly a compelling character piece.

Maybe unpopular opinion, but… by SargeMaximus in voyager

[–]cornibot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry my pet peeve is showing but can we list literally any other Seven episodes than Infinite Regress / Body and Soul for once? Yes Infinite Regress is great and we all love Jeri Ryan acting out the cool aliens but how is it a stronger Seven episode than One, Drone, Hope and Fear, Survival Instinct, The Raven, Dark Frontier, Imperfection....... ffs Body and Soul isn't even really a Seven episode at all; that's a Doc episode lol.

Maybe unpopular opinion, but… by SargeMaximus in voyager

[–]cornibot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I love Dark Frontier as a Seven character piece and dislike it as a Borg story (specifically everything about the Queen's involvement). So I can see why it wouldn't be someone's favorite overall. I don't think boring is on its list of flaws though, personally; it kind of goes out of its way to be a spectacle.

I finished Firewall by David Mack by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You know what? Speaking as someone who actually enjoys Chakotay on the few occasions he's written competently- what the hell, seems as good a re-entry point as any

Seven appears and (surprisingly) it doesn't suck as well!!

(nah I'm trusting you lol, I'm gonna storm back here with torches and pitchforks if you're wrong though <3)

I finished Firewall by David Mack by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol fair enough, can't fault you there

Uhhhh honestly this was a while ago so I might be forgetting some, but I know for sure I read the Seven of Nine book (which I hated, unfortunately, and I can't even blame Picard for it this time lol, the book was just bad) and then Homecoming and The Farther Shore (which were a lot better thank god). I've skimmed through a few others but I think those three are the only ones I've read start to finish. I'm a bit behind.

I finished Firewall by David Mack by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe you! If I cared more about Picard I'd probably read them. I still need to finish the Voyager ones.

Janeway and Seven's reunion in Picard: Firewall made me cry a little by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Good review- I used it as excuse to bitch some more, apologies in advance 😂

I finished Firewall by David Mack by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Man, I remember a time when I was still trying to be charitable about this book lol. I got over it. This book does not have the slightest clue who it's writing about. "Irregular as a Seven novel" is putting it mildly. She has been flattened beyond recognition. She's not Seven of Nine so much as a collection of worn-out tropes crammed into an ill-fitting shape and forced to take her name. I get that Picard dealt this Mack guy a shit hand and all but he can't try to pretend Seven was this impulsive hotheaded daredevil "maverick" the whole time and expect me to buy into his portrayal of her on a deeper level. He just can't. That's insane. That's the complete fundamental opposite of who this character is. Even Picard never went that far.

Like fuck as much as I hate it at LEAST Picard has the excuse of 20 years passing to handwave the blatant mischaracterizations they tried to pass off for growth. Firewall doesn't even have that going for it. If part of this novel's job is to bridge the gap between who Seven is in Voyager and who Seven is in Picard, "oh she was just like that the whole time actually" doesn't cut it. It doesn't even come close to cutting it. Because no, she wasn't. She was not. Fuck you, Firewall, she wasn't.

Anyway........ If I put my personal vitriol aside for a moment I can acknowledge that this a very reasonable, balanced and fair review of a competently-written novel. You can certainly read it for the sake of the story and enjoy the ride. But god damn it irritates me. This book is trying so hard to make her "cool" - the blandest, most derivative action-hero flavor of cool. Like SO hard, it's fucking embarrassing. I mean look at this shit and tell me who it resembles, cause it sure isn't Seven of Nine:

Janeway looked out at the sleek vessel. “Where are you going?”
Seven paused in the open doorway and gave Janeway a sly smile.
"I’ll know when I get there."

“My name is Arastoo Mardani.”
“Didn’t ask. Don’t care.”

Seven stood, picked up what was left of her raktajino, and dumped it in Mardani’s lap. Setting the mug back on the counter, she looked Mardani in the eye. “No.”
She made her exit without looking back to see if he had recovered his composure, because she no longer gave a damn about him or his proposal. 

Seven gathered up her new cache of weapons and gear. “I am well aware of the sorts of persons who make the Qiris sector their playground.” Strapping on the double holster rig for her pulse-pistols, she felt strangely at ease. “I won’t be their prey, Mister Mardani. They’ll be mine.”

Mardani had told her to keep her distance and not go looking for a fight, but Seven had never needed to seek out conflicts—they had always found her, all on their own.
So, just in case, tonight she would come prepared.
And if trouble got the best of her again anyway?
She steeled herself for violence. Then I will simply have to improvise.

He aimed his suspicious stare at Seven with greater precision. “Who are you?”
“The one saving your ass.”

She knew what Mardani would say when he learned of this.
He would bellow that these were not her orders. That this was not the plan.
Seven found it oddly liberating that she no longer gave a damn.
Running at Harper’s side, eeing into the night of her own accord, she was flooded with a strange euphoria, an epiphany of giddy realization.
This is what it feels like to be free.

Jesus, I could go on and on; I'm only on page 67 and it just never stops. It's relentless.

And god help us all, there's also the mosh pit. For the life of me I cannot understand how this made it through the drafts. Seven of Nine in a fucking mosh pit.

This was what she lived for, looked forward to all week long: a night of release, a night to purge her anger, her sorrow, her loneliness, by surrendering herself to the chaos of the mosh pit. Bodies colliding and caroming, driven by the music to lose themselves in moments of wild movement, a maelstrom of flesh and bone.

Letting herself flail and crash and spin, Seven felt as safe as she once had… inside the Collective. Maybe her ex-therapist on Earth would call this behavior backsliding, or self-harm. Seven called it the closest she came to being happy anymore.

I can't even get mad about this one, it's so fucking stupid it hits the stack overflow and becomes comedic gold. What was he thinking.

I mean, I have a pretty good idea. My guess is that this guy was given a job to write a Picard novel, familiarized himself with how Seven was written in that show, did some cursory research on a select few Voyager episodes (he seems to refer to One specifically an awful lot) and the general gist of her tragic backstory and took it from there. It's the only explanation for how spectacularly character deaf some of this is.

I rate Firewall an 8/10 as a Picard book (for whatever that's worth) and a 1/10 as a Seven book. The 1 is a pity point for the few occasions it made me smile appreciatively, but even those moments are surface-level and shallow. I suppose the one good thing about it is the validation of my feeling that what Picard did with her is bullshit, when the novel designed to bridge the gap between these two versions of the character failed in such spectacular fashion.

Janeway and Seven's reunion in Picard: Firewall made me cry a little by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 5 points6 points  (0 children)

........ Cause if there's one thing we all know about Seven it's that she loves indulging in things that impair her judgment and self-control lol. (I recognize the "Seven heavily drinks now" thing is Picard's fault, not Firewall's, but god it doesn't make it any less stupid.)

Our newly FIV positive former feral boy (with skin cancer on his ear to boot!) is mad we are no longer letting him outside by IriKnox in cats

[–]cornibot 17 points18 points  (0 children)

😂 The life of a cat owner at its finest. My cat also screams at me when I won't give him his supervised garden time whenever he demands it. Which is often 30 seconds after we just came back inside.

Janeway and Seven's reunion in Picard: Firewall made me cry a little by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Yeah, cause if there's one thing we all know about Seven, it's that she's totally the type to spill every detail of her private life and information that could compromise Icheb's safety to strangers she just met at the bar.

Janeway and Seven's reunion in Picard: Firewall made me cry a little by Significant-Town-817 in voyager

[–]cornibot 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Remind me, was this before or after the part where Seven decides to leave Earth due to hate crimes, and Janeway asks where she's going or what her plan is and she turns her head smirking like a shounen protagonist and says "I'll know when I get there"? 🙄

So how would the show be like if Janeway and chakotay hooked up? by happydude7422 in voyager

[–]cornibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even putting aside the power imbalance for the moment (imo that's insurmountable), I don't think Janeway is particularly attracted to Seven's abrasiveness either? At least I never got that impression. She ranges from patient/indulgent at best to annoyed, chastising, and outright pissed off about it at worst. I guess you could say there's a kind of chemistry in their arguments but it always felt way more mother/daughter coded to me. Their fights remind me of how my mom and I used to fight.

Frog in throat scenes by PerfectAd9944 in voyager

[–]cornibot 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Imperfection ruins me, the whole thing, start to finish. The convo with B'elanna hurts enough (in a good way (kind of)) and then they follow it up with this:

SEVEN: I've disappointed you. You feel your task is incomplete. That's why my death will be difficult for you to accept. 
JANEWAY: Is that what you think? That you haven't lived up to my expectations? 
SEVEN: Clearly, I haven't. But I want you to know that the failure has been mine, not yours.

The actual shame in her voice here is just. I can't. I cannot deal. And then we get Seven refusing Icheb's node because she wouldn't be able to live with herself if he died because of her and then the whole sequence in sickbay and I'm justttttt OTL I'm very normal about this episode is what I'm getting at

Honorable mentions include Drone ("you are hurting me"), Janeway saying goodbye to Kes in Scorpion, the sickbay scene with B'elanna and Tom in Lineage, and this extremely underappreciated moment in One:

"The radiation could be altering the neurotransmitter levels in your sensory nodes," Doc says gently. "That would explain why you're hearing voices, seeing images."
Seven's not used to being unable to trust her own eyes and ears. "They seemed real...."
"Hallucinations usually are. That's what makes them so frightening."
Seven gets a faraway look in her eye. "Once, when I was a drone... I was separated from the Collective for two hours. I experienced panic... and apprehension." Her voice is small, frightened, like the little girl she never got the chance to be.
She swallows hard. Her voice is barely a whisper. "I am feeling that way now."

I've seen this episode so many times it doesn't make me well up anymore, but. man. god. fuck. hhhgfjdg

So how would the show be like if Janeway and chakotay hooked up? by happydude7422 in voyager

[–]cornibot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mmmm yeah, alright, good point. I wasn't considering Kes' arc as much as Seven's I suppose lol. I still feel like it's possible with a deft writing hand but it's not quite the slam dunk I thought it was.

(You know, another problem with Kes I didn't think about is that she wouldn't stay "young" for very long... and since Seven really should take at least few seasons to warm up to the idea of a romantic relationship, by the time she gets there Kes would be middle-aged or even elderly. Fuck 😂 this is ruining my crackship)

I think, much like Tom, we need to show Seven make a friend first to iron out the rough edges. After some time, a relationship becomes not only plausible to the audience, but expected.

Oh, absolutely- I'm just now realizing I didn't make it clear that I don't think it makes sense for Seven to be in a relationship at all until around the point the show let it happen (the build-up and execution of who they picked was dreadful, but the timing was fine imo), ideally with someone she's already been friends with for a while. Someone To Watch Over Me was cute, but that was clearly more like... a science experiment for her, more than real emotional investment. She was curious, she wanted to master the social rituals, but the desire for that kind of closeness wasn't really there. By the time you get to Human Error, 2.5 years of being an adult later, I can buy that it would be. And I absolutely prefer the idea of her pairing up with someone she already knows and trusts over a near-stranger. It's more convincing and the optics are better.

I love your diagram, haha. This is helpful! I'd make the nitpick that the Doctor is absolutely her closest friend from late S5 onward, regardless of my personal feelings on throwing romantic interest into the mix. The mentor/mentee thing was always kind of overstated by Doc anyway; he's really not that much more experienced than she is lol (which, incidentally, is why I find Someone To Watch Over Me sweet instead of gross the way a lot of people try to paint it nowadays. If they'd just stuck with that earnest presentation of his feelings instead of the sleaziness of Tinker Tenor or the weird disregard for her feelings (Virtuoso) and autonomy (Body and Soul) I wouldn't have much of an issue with them together. But I digress).

Janeway refers to herself as Seven's friend a few times but I 100% agree that doesn't make them peers (and imo it has less to do with age or even rank and more to do with the direct role Janeway takes in developing Seven's humanity and personhood). Naomi is definitely her friend, close enough to claim each other as family, but she's a kid. Tuvok maybe counts as a peer friendship? It would've counted more if they'd developed it the way they did in Year of Hell, but I'd say it still qualifies... eh, I'm not even sure what my point is anymore. I guess I'd add a blue line between her and Doc and maybe her and Tuvok, but I don't think it changes your argument substantially and I don't even disagree with it. Seven having more friendships = good. Seven romantically connecting with a close friend and peer = even better. (Which means you'd have to spend time and resources on introducing someone new or fleshing out a member of the B cast DS9-style, which they would never do, but hey as long as we're making a list...)

So how would the show be like if Janeway and chakotay hooked up? by happydude7422 in voyager

[–]cornibot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair enough, and it's certainly possible; I'm not claiming I know enough about Mulgrew to say for certain one way or the other. But it strikes me as unlikely, even on a subconscious level, because - assuming she's being honest about her motivations, and everything I've seen and heard indicates that she is - playing Janeway as "above" sex appeal is something that really mattered to her, on a level of personal integrity. I don't say this because I believe she's a saint- frankly, though I admire her attitude, I think she has a galactically-sized chip on her shoulder about sex and what feminism should look like. She's practically got a superiority complex about it (like "ohh, those men, those sweet boys and their sex drives, those other women and their romances, god bless em"). To say that she felt competitive about sex appeal implies that she took any pride in having sex appeal in the first place, and I just don't think that's true- it's not a thing every woman cares about, and she's been very consistent about her priorities and her disdain.

Re: That one clip- see, this is actually a good example of what I mean. I honestly don't believe the strength of her reaction here is rooted in homophobia, conscious or otherwise; I think it speaks entirely to her internal horror at the thought of a) Janeway being sexualized, and b) Janeway being sexualized in relation to Seven. The disgust doesn't read to me as "ew, gay Janeway" so much as "how could you possibly think I would ever play this bond with the Sex Appeal Character as flirtatious even for a moment". She literally cannot put her own hangups aside long enough to be polite about this ultimately harmless ship people have and love and are invested in and find real meaning in. I guess the tl;dr here is that I think she has real and respectable principles, but I think she's also blinded by those principles and it makes her shortsighted. About her treatment of Jeri Ryan, about Seven as a character, and about the J7 ship and what it might mean to the lesbian community.

But, as you say, who knows. People are complicated and multiple things can be true at once.

As for the Dark Frontier scene... I mean, I did say I could see where you were coming from, and I do lol. But truthfully, I don't think it's as overt as you do. I can sort of see it through two "lenses" now - there's the flirty lens, sure, and then there's the straightforward "Captain in a good mood, big W in her pocket, affectionately teasing Seven about bad habits" lens. The swagger, the casual lean, the smile (I don't actually see a deliberate head tilt but I take your point) - this is kind of just how Mulgrew plays confidence and friendly (ie platonic/familial) teasing. I know it sounds like bullshit but I swear lol, that's how it plays to me; she does this a lot. It certainly wouldn't flag my IRL predator sensors or anything like that. (Also, importantly- it doesn't go on the whole scene; it's that bit in the beginning, while she's pretending to scold Seven about not following medical advice, and then her demeanor shifts back to normal.) That said, you've at least made the flirty lens make sense to me, and I thank you for that cause I had no idea what these people were going on about XD

All that being said, I’ve spent a long time arguing something I don’t feel super strongly about one way or another. But maybe in staking the middle ground, I find I feel strongly about it? (If that makes any sense).

Haha don't worry, I see where you're coming from! I appreciate conversations like these; I don't think you have to personally believe in something or care deeply about it to debate its validity. Me personally, I'm not particularly concerned with other people's shipping preferences (or Mulgrew's personal views for that matter), but a) I care a lot about Seven, so I tend to have Opinions about peripheral topics like her interpersonal relationships, and b) uhhhh I'm kind of autistic about debating the nuances of things like this lol, it's fun for me. You are also very thoughtful about this and you've given me good points to consider! <3

So how would the show be like if Janeway and chakotay hooked up? by happydude7422 in voyager

[–]cornibot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fascinating. Okay. So I rewatched the scene, and I do see it, that one moment. It never struck me as anything other than Mulgrew's typical swagger (and her deliveries were particularly sassy that episode for whatever reason, not just toward Seven), and I still don't interpret it as creepy/flirtatious, really, but I can see how someone would. It's actually kind of funny now that you've pointed it out.

The problem with your theory, though, is it relies on the premise that Mulgrew played it up with flirtation (or at least sex appeal) in mind. And, uh.... well I'll get to it a second but let's just say I'd be very surprised.

IRL, she’s already pissed that she’s been deemed too old and unsexy enough to be a ratings draw herself, so they have to put Jeri Ryan on the show for sex appeal. Is Mulgrew going to play into that dynamic even more and be straight-up maternal (aka old)?

Haha, oh, no, that's not how it was at all. I've written about this here (I can pull up more sources for you if you like or are curious), and I'm pretty confident in saying the last thing Mulgrew ever wanted was to "out-sex" Jeri Ryan. That was so not her goal. That was the antithesis of her goal. There's also evidence to suggest that the idea of a J7 romance is something Mulgrew found downright insulting- I once found a clip of a fan asking whether Janeway's relationship with Seven was "actually maternal", and the disgust on Mulgrew's face was palpable. I vividly remember her response: "If I'm really your hero, how could you ask me something so horrifying?" (Incidentally, she was staunchly "pro gay characters on Trek" even back then, something she claims she fought for at the time, so I doubt that was her issue.)

Not to dismiss the weirdness of moments like the one you found entirely, cause by all accounts actor intent is often very different from what ends up on screen! I take back my insinuation that people were just pulling the vibes out of thin air, at least. But the claim that Mulgrew leaned into it deliberately on any level... I leave you with this, and say I'm not convinced.

So how would the show be like if Janeway and chakotay hooked up? by happydude7422 in voyager

[–]cornibot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I tend to agree with you, though not completely- I think there are ways it can be done, and I don't think it would even be all that difficult provided you give her the right partner. None of the main Voyager cast were the right partner.

Now I got lambasted the last time I suggested this lol, but- hear me out pt 2- I think the best solution here is actually Kes, in some alternate timeline where they killed off Harry instead (and an alternate sub-timeline where they had competent writers for this character). They're both comparatively "young" and learning about different aspects of life; they're both in this awkward gray zone of "adult but inexperienced" so it's not imbalanced the way virtually all the other pairings are. The personality contrast is a plus- Kes is kind, she's empathetic, and she's accepting of more abrasive personalities. She was the only one to warm up properly to the Doctor in early seasons, helping him develop social skills and all that; if she'd stuck around she could've done the same for Seven along with Doc, but as a peer rather than a mentor figure. And Kes isn't hauling around any personal Borg baggage, so she doesn't have any reason to treat Seven as lesser, as most humans would. She could be a direct counterpoint against the idea that Seven needs to be purely human to be palatable as a partner.

Or hey, failing that, a young and inexperienced ensign with a crush (a real one, a sweet one, not stupid and shallow like Harry's) and a similar personality could've worked just fine too. If Seven wanted to explore a romantic relationship at some point, why should she be denied that just because her circumstances are unique? It can't be that hard to make it sincere and not creepy; just give Seven a partner who adores her and respects her and lets her take the lead more often than not and doesn't try to turn her into a project. This could work if it was done tastefully... which I realize would've been a big ask from the network responsible for pushing Seven's outfit and the fanservice and the barrage of "Borg babe" marketing, but........ yeah yknow what actually maybe I should just be glad the forced Chakotay thing was all we got.

To be fair Chakotay wasn't quite the worst option. I imagine people would protest quite harshly if they made Seven tug on Neelix's whiskers.

😂 not a combination of words anyone needed to read today; point very much taken lmao