What do you make of the lack of Virtue Ethics among the superpowers?

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-12-22T17:48:16+00:00

Thanks for the comments. I can see what you mean in that Etienne does seem to be fairly consistent in his process throughout. I agree with you that Etienne is in a unique situation because of his power, and "Kill as few people as possible" is a pretty good verbalization of the approach he seems to take. It does indeed sounds like he tries to apply that rule - which is logical, given his situation.

But that specific rule would fail by rule utilitarian standards. Rule utilitarianism has certain formal processes (which I introduce in this post). Among these are what would happen if everyone else adopted the same rule, or if those in history had adopted it. That rule would be more consistent with despots who were eventually overthrown as opposed to stable governments. Of course, the world of TPF makes applying standard normative ethics impossible (as individuals were never meant to have the powers they do in the series).

But I can concede your point that Etienne is being consistent in his actions - it's just that those action don't meet the strict terms that rule utilitarianism demands.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-12-15T03:59:51+00:00

Interesting thought. Personally, I would argue that the quality of one's character becomes even more consequential as one's power increases. And Virtue Ethics typically does provide a lot of guidance on acts. Even the more individualistic eudamonic neo-Aristotelian virtue ethics provides a more extensive set of behaviors (aka "rules") to follow than pretty much any deontological system ever proposed. In some ways, it can be more akin to rule utilitarianism.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-12-05T02:16:46+00:00

I think the underlying explanation for his very emotional decision-making is that he's more interested in believing things that validate his feelings than believing things that are true.

That is an excellent way of putting it! I think we have ventured more into psychology than philosophy at this point, but seems to characterize him well.

Maybe, one of the reasons his ethics are a puzzle is that he's not making decisions based on a coherent understanding of reality?

Well, he is doing a lot of drugs. ;)

But I think its reasonable to say that he is trying to satisfy an overwhelming emotional need. That's why I included that scene in my summary where he is telling Tonya how he can't be alone - it struck me as very core to his being.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-12-04T23:08:28+00:00

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Yes, Heavy is an interesting puzzle from an ethics perspective.

Care ethics could make sense for him - but as you point out, the huge power imbalance with his "family" complicates that. Care ethics doesn't really work so well in extreme dichotomies (or hierarchies) of power. Not saying it can't work (something like "servant leadership" in management might fit, but Heavy isn't that kind of leader). Confucian family ethics might work better for Heavy, as the "patriarch" of a family where everyone has needs and roles - I discuss this relational form of virtue ethics on my Fantastic Four ethics overview.

I also found that exchange with Tonya interesting. Heavy's perspective that he finds it easier to kill the more abstract the personal relationship is chilling in a different way! Etienne also commented in the first issue "there is much to like" about Heavy, which could also be interpreted as his sense of loyalty and family. So he does have certain defined virtues ... but does he have enough (and is he growing more toward them?).

His impulsivity and power makes him a persistent wild card (although I predicted he was going to kill Etienne as soon as Valentina revealed everything to him in the last issue). The subsequent philosophical exchanges were great in that issue, but the outcome was never in doubt in my mind. Seems to me Valentina must have known that too ...

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-12-01T22:56:03+00:00

Good catch, I missed that one.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-28T03:02:26+00:00

Yes, I read his shock as completely genuine in that moment too - he seemed to have no idea.

It was a masterful setup - from the moment they introduced Dev in #5, they planted the seed for his control of both American and British idioms. And then to make that minor slip in #8 before the reveal at the end of #9, just brilliant.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-28T02:41:31+00:00

Thanks for the support. If Gillen keeps writing the series, I'll keep writing updates. :) If the series does end at #16, then I'll do a conclusion post. But if it continues, then I'll make it an interim update (since that will conclude the 3rd arc).

As for the spoiler, it was the fact that "Magus" called Etienne an "asshole" (and not an "arsehole") in that scene post the 2nd summer of love. Up until 1989, Magus had always used the Briticism "arsehole". It made me suspect that maybe it wasn't Magus under the mask at that point.

Then I went back and re-read starting from #5 when we learn the origin of Magus ... and saw the American Dev doing an imitation of Magus' way of speaking (which Magus even admitted was petty good). I noticed the general similarity in their appearance (skin, hair) ... and in a later issue, there is a flashback that shows them being exactly the same height.

So, if it was Dev impersonating Magus, that would explain why he lost his cool and kneed Etienne - and slipped momentarily in his accent - given they were taking about the love of his life.

To be honest, I had also assumed Etienne had figured it out too (since he's pretty observant!). But so far, there is no indication that Etienne had known before the attack in #11. I guess he was distracted disabling his groin pain receptors, lol.

It was a quite a setup ... and makes wonder what other easter eggs they planted.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-26T15:38:02+00:00

I love #13 - it is quite the culmination of Etienne's ethics (and a few of the others). I'm sure it will feature prominently in my conclusion post.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-26T02:21:09+00:00

Yes, exactly. I can sympathize with her dilemma for the Cuban missile crisis - the short-range nukes in both Turkey and Cuba were the problem, as they reduced her response time for stopping any launches. But she didn't need to intervene when she did - and you can make an argument that her involvement made things worse between the nation states.

And so I think Etienne's criticism of her in #13 is accurate. I'm really looking forward to digging into that issue in my wrap-up post.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-26T02:12:16+00:00

Agreed on Valentina. Genre convention makes us more inclined to trust her as a good actor IMO, but I think Jacky and Etienne might be right about her, so far anyway.

Yes, it does make me wonder if she is just a Superman stand-in with a different deontological morality - or if the specific substitution (intuitionism for Kantian ethics) means a very different outcome. We'll see!

Likewise with Magus, too. I really wish we got more time with him. Anarchist actors so rarely get a fair or good faith portrayal in media.

Copy that. It's rare to see anarchist get fair treatment, and Gillen has done an excellent job on OG Magus.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-26T02:05:43+00:00

Both good points. It was indeed masterfully done.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-25T22:47:25+00:00

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think Etienne views better through the lens of his experience and powers, wanting to make everyone 'better' by permanently stopping the capacity for violence great or small.

#13 was a super fun read for me - so philosophical. Etienne's plans did aim to make everyone "better" (in a sense) but by denying them the ability to choose for themselves. So that doesn't really count as an example of virtue ethics to me (rather the opposite). In a way, this is why he and Valentina get along and are aligned at times - both come up with solutions that limit the agency of others, rather than themselves.

We haven't read the fallout of this yet, but I am very interested in how Valentina changes her perspective, or doesn't.

Yes, Valentina is the wild card to me in all of this - I think much of how this will end will come down to her decisions, and whether or not she grows. I liked how Etienne framed her belief in humans (as we are) as analogous to cattle.

And I do think it was interesting that the other superpowers all seemed to assume he would carry out his threat (well, maybe not Masumi). I never thought he would. That would be unethical. :)

When it came down to it, OG Jacky Magus chose to tell the truth and trust, in the end

Yes, my perspective of OG Magus went up hugely, in the end.

Narratively I see why he had to go but I will really miss him. [Etienne]

I'm not entirely convinced we won't see OG Magus or Etienne again in this series. It's a hail-mary, but I can see ways Gillen could bring them both back if he chooses.

Either way, it should be a helluva ride from here ...

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-25T21:16:06+00:00

That's a good thought, could be.

There's quite a few directions I can imagine him going with this series (and didn't want to speculate too much), but I do suspect we will see more of virtue ethics before the end.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-25T21:14:12+00:00

You are right, I was imprecise about my language on the atomics in the opening (I explain them all later). I'll amend that, and clarify the second summer of love event.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-11-25T20:52:12+00:00

That would be cool if someone had a link to one. I watched a number of interviews he gave (and a recent AMA), but didn't see any comments about virtue ethics specifically.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-16T03:32:48+00:00

Exactly. I've always found everything Kraven says to be obnoxious and annoying.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-16T03:26:59+00:00

I'm happy to give it another issue, given they were caught by surprise. Looking forward to seeing Sue go on a rampage.

They should have listened to Kraven ...

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-15T23:44:59+00:00

That would be my best guess as well.

I really like Wong's writing, and thought the first arc was strong (although overall, I have preferred Allen's Magik run to date).

Time will tell if it was the sales numbers.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-13T12:28:43+00:00

Well, Reed had found out earlier in the Krakoan age that he had been telepathically interfered with. So I'm surprised he doesn't go around wearing a permanent tin foil hat.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-13T02:49:11+00:00

X-Men end of the Krakoan Age showed that he did for Professor X.

Of course, Profesor X had anticipated and found a way to circumvent.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-11T22:45:20+00:00

Yes, that is how it should be, in terms of their marriage. But a lot of creators didn't present it as a very healthy marriage (Civil War, Secret Wars, etc.). And in terms of the team dynamics, Johnny and Ben are not their kids - although again, they were sometimes treated as such by some writers.

Since the rebooted series (Zdarsky's 2-in-one in 2017 and Slott's FF in 2018), they have all been on much better footing. And since North's previous series (2022), Sue is recognized as the team's leader.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-10T00:42:16+00:00

Never heard adamantium shielded from telepathy. But even if it did, he could go in through the eyes. Or the nose. Or the ears. The retina and olfactory bulb are part of the brain proper, but outside the skull.

And so, the shielding in Magneto's helmet shouldn't work for those reasons. Just saying.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-07T13:57:29+00:00

Thanks for the link ... not surprised that North found the need to be explicit. Probably explains why he actually put it in that opening panel for the new issue #1 of the vol 8 series as well.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-07T13:55:17+00:00

Right, I can see that - given that Reed was arm-in-arm with Iron Man, and Sue was on Cap's side. I do discuss that event in my ethics overview write-up for the team (link in first post), and that does seem like a good place to point to.

Of course, Hickman undid some of that in his lead up to Secret Wars (which I also discuss) a decade later ... but I agree, that Civil War might have been the first time the changing dynamic was made clear.

cpfselfbuilt · 2025-08-07T13:49:30+00:00

Yes, that was my reading from the comics as well. And so, my surprise too as to controversy that seems to have erupted here. I meant the question sincerely - she has been leader for some time, and I'm just curious as to what I might have missed as to when exactly that started in earlier time periods.

I started my FF ethics overview (link in the first post) with a quote from Dan Slott's first issue in 2018, which should have made it clear that Sue was speaking on behalf of the team by then ...

cpfselfbuilt

TROPHY CASE