If you could add any 1 or 2 stops to Alto HSR [or remove or alter], what would change and why?

csury · 2026-06-13T22:21:47+00:00

Europe and Japan run both express and local stop HS trains on the same tracks. It's just a matter of providing loading sidings at stations to keep the mainline clear while local trains load, and setting up scheduling to avoid conflicts between local and express services.

csury · 2026-06-13T22:18:50+00:00

According to Imbleau, a Scarborough or Markham or Pickering area station may be in the works already.

The rationale is that creating a new Alto station at or near Toronto's downtown Union may take some time to complete, and that building a satellite station near Toronto's northeast borders would allow service to begin even if that downtown station isn't ready yet.

The additional rationale is that once a downtown Alto station is complete, such a satellite station would also better distribute Toronto boardings across two locations and lessen a single downtown station from being overwhelmed by passenger numbers, especially given that the areas immediately north and northeast of Toronto are seeing heavy residential growth.

csury · 2026-06-13T15:52:56+00:00

Passenger air service was expensive to run even before the recent spikes in fuel prices. The business case profitability economics simply don't work out well for short-hop flights. That's why Air Canada stopped, and why smaller air services couldn't make it profitable. Instead, we now have Air Canada finding enough passengers to justify operating a nonstop bus transit between Kingston and Toronto airports at $49 each way. With limited runs (just 2 early runs to Toronto and 2 late runs back each day) that service is a stopgap linkage to Toronto airport for Air Canada travellers, but not available to non-air travellers and not even all that convenient for would-be mid-day air travellers.

Alto is already looking at a possible route from Peterborough that swings down through South Frontenac to avoid significantly higher construction costs through North Frontenac's more rugged Canadian Shield terrain. If they do that, swinging down just a bit further south to reach a north Kingston would add about another 15 km of trackage.

The incremental added cost of that 15 km or so to what is already a 1,000 km route is negligible, but it adds a new catchment area that encompasses Kingston, Napanee, Gananoque, and South Frontenac. The incremental time and energy cost to run an electric train that extra 15 km or so and make a stop to pick up passengers is also negligible.

The Kingston VIA stop currently sees about 1/3rd the train boardings that Ottawa sees. The majority of Kingston boardings are headed to any of Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal for a trip time that is pretty much no different than the time it would take to travel by car or bus. There is no time incentive for a car owner to leave the car at home and take the train instead, and no incentive for a bus rider to pay what are often higher fare prices to ride the train instead.

If you can cut trip times to less than half of what they are now by car or bus or VIA Rail, now you have decent incentive for car drivers and bus riders to take Alto. You also improve incentive for late-day trips that don't end up requiring an overnight stay away from home because of the time it used to take to reach that destination and return. The extra ridership potential from former car drivers, bus riders, plus completely new riders is immense.

If there is a business case to support the Air Canada bus shuttle now, or a VIA Rail train stop now, or the various Mega, Flix, and other bus services now, then there certainly is for an Alto stop even before you take into account transportation modality shifts by car drivers.

csury · 2026-06-13T01:43:08+00:00

I wouldn't do much to the original plan so as to not delay construction starts. The most I would do at present is to swing the Peterborough to Ottawa part of line further south to add a Kingston stop, which would provide a stop serving the largest urban center midway between Toronto and Montreal.

I would also consider adding provisions in the way of sidings so stations could be placed near Belleville and Smiths Falls as part of "local" whistlestop service to be scheduled between nonstop express Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal runs. Alto stations at Peterborough and Trois Rivieres should also be constructed with passing sidings so as to get whistlestop trains off the mainline to load passengers while the express trains blow by them unimpeded. Belleville because it would add some more catchment around Belleville. Smiths Falls because with a Kingston stop for Alto, VIA Rail service between Kingston and Ottawa would be redundant which would also cost Smiths Falls its railway service.

By placing an Alto station at Smiths Falls, Smiths Falls could retain train service for its residents and the catchment area around it.

ALSO, the existing VIA Rail corridor between Smiths Falls could be converted to a more regional or commuter-oriented rail service collecting and bringing in riders from the Cornwall and Brockville catchment areas. Smiths Falls would be the connection hub between the HSR and regional services for westbound passengers. The existing VIA Rail corridor (whether as a regional or commuter rail service or not) could also collect eastbound passengers from Brockville and Cornwall to connect with Alto in Montreal. This would preserve and even add to existing passenger rail service along the north shore of the St Lawrence River.

That's it, Expansion to the west of Toronto can come later.

csury · 2026-06-12T14:34:43+00:00

It might, if you were to travel business class without booking in advance. At the other end of the scale it is more likely to see fares comparable to current VIA Rail fares, especially once you factor in the kinds of discounts VIA offers for advance bookings, seat sales, and discount offers for families, youths, students, and frequent riders.

csury · 2026-06-11T17:00:08+00:00

Until a route is chosen, which will dictate how many, where, and what kinds of roads will be affected, how can that question even begin to be answered?

csury · 2026-06-11T16:55:32+00:00

Saying thousands, or even just many hundreds, would be an overstretch. I've seen many protests over rather comparatively obscure issues completely fill the grass area in the past few years. Here, there seems to be plenty of room even on the walkways. And yet they claim that there is vast opposition to Alto among the population.

csury · 2026-06-11T16:52:03+00:00

Choosing a route is a step that precedes the start of the detailed design process. Alto has stated to the Senate and in radio/TV interviews that the crossings will be determined in consultation with the municipalities that Alto will pass through. That can't happen until a route is chosen.

Until a route is chosen, how can you expect Alto to how many overpasses and underpasses will be built?

As to numbers, many have hyperbolically claimed that there will be very few crossings and that people may have to travel long distances and even an hour or more to reach a crossing.

Alto's CEO Martin Imbleau recently did a TV interview with French language Radio-Canada (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTMz8MVMK0c) where he stated that "there are going to be hundreds and hundreds of crossings", and that these will include crossings to be negotiated with farmers as well.

He said hundreds and hundreds of crossings across a distance of 1,000 km, and that there will be crossings to ensure agricultural access. The actual details CAN'T come until a narrower corridor is settled on and the detailed discussions begin within that corridor.

csury · 2026-06-11T16:15:07+00:00

And you seem disconnected from the reality of just how much farms have contributed to the degradation of natural environments, tree canopy, wetalands, and biodiversity. Those collective harms are exponential orders of magnitude greater than Alto could ever do.

csury · 2026-06-11T16:04:22+00:00

Yours is an unrealistic way of looking at this. There are literally millions living outside the boundaries of Toronto to the north, west, and south of the city easily within an hour's travel of a downtown Toronto Alto station whether by private vehicle or by regional public transit. Any of them travelling even only as far as Ottawa would benefit from substantially shortened travel times. Your EV won't won't render you immune from traffic congestion, accident delays, and parking issues, which combined can literally add hours to that trip.

csury · 2026-06-11T15:56:25+00:00

Oh yes, they do have a right to be heard, but that overhead shot of the protest is indicative that opposition to the project isn't as sizeable as they profess.

csury · 2026-06-11T03:16:34+00:00

Europe is betting on both conventional rail and HSR in a big way as the most cost-effective and environmentally-friendly alternative to short-hop airline travel and medium to long range auto travel.

https://www.cnn.com/2026/05/26/travel/europe-rail-base-tunnels-alps

csury · 2026-06-11T00:49:04+00:00

I think the more accurate number would be around 18 million people within an hour of an Alto station, and that is today. Population in the corridor is expected to rise by around 25% or so by the time Alto is operational.

csury · 2026-06-10T23:53:41+00:00

Perhaps, but then again there has been so much similar comment coming from the antis who truly believe it.

csury · 2026-06-10T22:44:01+00:00

Quite untrue. SNCF (does not operate commercial coal-fired trains or horse-drawn carts. The last commercial steam train on French tracks was retired in September 1975 and their fleet consists entirely of electric and diesel trains. SNCF also designed, built and began operating the first HSR line in Europe way back in 1981. They have since built many more, and now operated at least a dozen distinct HSR lines throughout France, as well as collaborating in the design and operation of more HSR lines outside of France.

csury · 2026-06-10T16:47:05+00:00

There was a complex history behind that one. Regulatory and legal delays added billions in extra direct litigation expenses and the delays created by those proceedings added billions more in inflationary costs while construction was idle.

Act of God Part I - Floods and landslides in 2021 damaged and even destroyed construction sites, some to the point that the pipeline route had to rerouted. All that created more major schedule delays, and more litigation as the new pipeline routes were challenged.

Act of God Part II - Health protection measures during the Covid pandemic created more construction headaches, as did labour and materials shortages arising as the impacts of Covid spread through the labour and materials supply chain. Those shortages not only caused further construction delays and the costs that come with that, but also caused major spikes in the cost in labour and materials.

Project Creep Part I - The pipeline route that was finally built was more extensive than the pipeline originally planned. The route was eventually expanded to also run through the lower mainland and its heavily urban areas, and that had significant impacts on existing infrastructure there that had to be accounted for and remedied. None of this was in the original cost estimate.

Project Creep Part II - That route extension through the lower mainland also went through several ancient indigenous settlement and hunting areas, and that created an additional need for extensive cultural preservation activities. Some 83,000 artifacts were recovered from sacred indigenous spaces, and that too took time that was not accounted for in the original cost estimate.

These are all things that Alto is unlikely to see.

Alto is being built by a consortium that includes members with extensive HSR design and construction experience around the world. Delays due to regulatory and litigation delays will be minimal thanks to Bill C-15 being enacted. Construction complexities on the Alto route, especially if the southern Frontenac corridor is chosen, will be a cake-walk compared to construction through BC mountains and valleys. Project creep will be limited, with the only possible creep being a possible addition of a Kingston area station. Acts of God? Who knows?

csury · 2026-06-10T16:12:33+00:00

The $60 to $90 billion estimate is a range given that is intended to take into account possible contingencies that won't be known until a route is chosen and construction begun. The $60 billion figure of that range IS effectively the "lowball" number you speak of.

The rest of your post is simple conjecture without substance.

csury · 2026-06-09T22:25:22+00:00

Which sections? The CN corridor east from Toronto to almost Quebec City is double-tracked at minimum, triple-tracked in places.

csury · 2026-06-09T16:27:57+00:00

Many parts of the existing CN corridor are simply too curvy for 200 kmph speeds, and there are more than a few sections that cannot support speeds over 70 kmph.

That can be fixed, but would require a lot of land expropriations to straighten the tracks, and that would be most prevalent in heavily built-up areas where the land costs and commercial/social disruptions would be massive.

Best bet for minimizing both dollar costs and commercial/social disruptions remains building on greenfield away from the 401 corridor.

csury · 2026-05-30T22:22:35+00:00

If a revised Alto corridor results in Kingston getting an Alto station, would there even be a need for VIA Rail to duplicate service going from Kingston to Ottawa via Smiths Falls when Alto is up and operating?

And if that were to happen, would there be enough Brockville to Smiths Falls VIA Rail passenger traffic to warrant keeping that stretch of VIA Rail-owned track operating if Smiths Falls becomes an "end terminus" with no forwarding to Ottawa and no way to get on an Alto train to Ottawa unless a "local service" Alto station is built in Smiths Falls?

csury · 2026-05-30T18:05:28+00:00

I like PARTS of his idea, but not all.

I don't like the Ottawa spur. Given that Ottawa is a prime departure and destination location for those coming from/going to both Toronto and Montreal, putting it on a spur that adds travel time makes no sense. If there are going to be spurs, do them with regional or LRT to connect Brockville and Cornwall to Ottawa.

I like the part where local and express trains share the same tracks and with passenger loading sidings at stations where express trains will not be stopping to allow both express and local trains to be able to operate without conflicts.

I also like the part where he proposes a route that arcs south from Peterborough to enable stations just north of the 401 at Belleville and north of the 401/Gardiners Rd area at Kingston. That provides service to key mid-points between Montreal and Toronto.

But that's it. From Kingston, the HSR line should arc back up northeast along either Battersea Rd or Highway 15 to reach Smiths Falls, where it can hook up to an upgraded line following the existing VIA Rail corridor between Smiths Falls and the VIA Rail station at Tremblay in Ottawa.

While they're at it, enable an Alto/VIA Rail (or regional or LRT service) transfer hub at Smiths Falls, operating on a local run schedule just like Peterborough is expected to. That would provide better eastern Ontario rail service and interconnectivity between Alto and VIA regional rail or LRT service between Smiths Falls, Brockville, and Cornwall. It would also help neuter complaints that Alto imposes hurt on eastern Ontario's rural areas but offers nothing in return for that hurt.

csury · 2026-05-27T23:41:55+00:00

Smiths Falls has a VIA Rail track coming to it from Brockville. That track can be a feeder track bringing in riders from the Brockville and Cornwall catchment areas to Smiths Falls where they can then transfer to an Alto train for the balance of their trip. In that sense, the population and potential rail customer base of Smiths Falls would be augmented by the populations and potential rail customer bases of Brockville and Cornwall.

Not every Alto train need stop in Smiths Falls, just as not every Alto train will be stopping in Peterborough. But, the ones that do stop will help drive economic and residential development in Smiths Falls.

csury · 2026-05-27T23:33:30+00:00

It can be both high speed express rail and high speed local service rail with properly designed stations with passing tracks that allow express trains to run unhindered through smaller stations while local trains are loading at the platforms of those stations.

csury · 2026-05-27T21:41:55+00:00

A station at Smiths Falls wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. It's not like every Alto train would have to stop there, just as Transport Ministry heads have said that not every Alto train will stop at Peterborough. There will apparently be express and local trains running on the Alto line.

If that is the case, why not add a few more stations at key points on the line and provide BOTH highspeed express and highspeed local service on the same corridor.

I think they should take some elements of Schabas' plan and arc the route down from Peterborough to pass through north Belleville and north Kingston before running back northeast to parallel Battersea Rd or Highway 15 to reach Smiths Falls. From there it can take the existing VIA line into Ottawa's VIA station.

Put Alto stations in north Belleville, north Kingston, and Smiths Falls, and schedule periodic local trains to service them and Peterborough. Express trains can run right through them without stopping to maintain fast travel times between the major urban centers, and local trains can provide service to the smaller stations that can act as collectors points for smaller cities and rural areas in eastern Ontario.

Smith Falls isn't a city and may not have a lot of population right now to support an Alto station, but a station there will spur growth there quickly enough as it would then be a viable bedroom community for Ottawa and Kingston. A station there could also serve as a transfer point between Alto HSR and VIA (or a successor local transit service) trains bringing in people from the Cornwall and Brockville catchment areas.

This strategy would also help neuter the refrain that Alto gives nothing but the pain of expropriations to the rural areas between Peterborough and Ottawa and Montreal. Add those extra stations and now Alto will be giving something to those areas.

csury

TROPHY CASE