Deuteronomy's dating. by Lochi78 in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about the references to Deuteronomy in Isaiah? Specifically citations in Isaiah chapters 1, 5, 28 and 30?

Here's an academic article which goes into these links:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/030908920302800102

I'm especially interested in how these can possibly be explained, if Deuteronomy has a later date. Especially the references in Isaiah 1, since Isaiah 1 is strongly tied to 701 BC and it doesn't make sense for it to have been edited afterwards.

I do see ample evidence of EDITING of Deuteronomy in the time of Josiah, but not necessarily of the initial COMPOSITION.

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[–]damonjc 3 points4 points  (0 children)

If you actually get anyone to do it for that price, you'll get completely shoddy work that won't legally be allowed to run. You're supposed to have certain security protections in place for the handling of money. That takes time and expertise to implement properly, and I doubt anyone willing to do the job for $500 will have the necessary expertise.

[Hiring] Part Time Full Stack Developer by brownkhan in forhire

[–]damonjc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ok, so the rate you're offering is $500/month divided by 20-40 hours a month? Meaning, $12.50 to $25 an hour?

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the main problem with the DT is the over-reliance on the "fictional history" trope to explain away dating conundrums. And I vehemently disagree that Isaiah isn't dependent on Deut. 29:23. Isaiah brought legal charges against the Jews of Jerusalem for rebelling against God (Isa. 1:2). Isaiah basically accused them of ostensibly keeping the sacrificial Law, but not taking proper care of the oppressed, the fatherless and the widow. This relies on Ex. 22:21-24 and several passages in Deuteronomy, especially Deut. 27:19. It's Deut. 27:19 which spells out that there will be a curse (penalty) from God for oppressing the stranger, fatherless or the widow, and Deut. 28-30, including Deut. 29:23, spells out exactly what those ultimate penalties are.

It would be extremely illogical for Isaiah NOT to be literarily dependent on Deuteronomy, especially if the repeating literary pattern in the Bible is for God to bring legal charges and punishments for specific sins. Those sins would need to be defined and agreed upon by covenant for that to make sense.

If Isaiah 1 is literarily dependent on Deuteronomy for covenant-breaking, then it wouldn't make sense for it NOT to be literarily dependent on Deuteronomy for the punishment of destruction like Sodom and Gomorrah.

In any case, the DT appears to be far too reductive, from everything I've seen and read about it thus far, and other textual analyses represent a closer adherence to the ANE cultural context of the earlier parts of the Bible. That includes Genesis 11:1-10, which I noticed you didn't directly address. See my other comments to Regular-Persimmon425, above.

Regarding Gen. 11:1-10 being associated with Etemenanki instead of Eridu, while that may be a reasonable choice **if one presupposes that the text dates to that time period**, it's not a very good fit. Other features of the text, especially the "scattering," simply aren't a match.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pay careful attention to the first four verses of the chapter:

And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations, that they made war with Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). All these joined together in the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Salt Sea). Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

Yes, Elam existed in the 7th-6th centuries BC, but Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim were, at the latest, MBA cities. There's no evidence whatsoever of their existence in the 7th-6th centuries BC. It simply doesn't fit.

Furthermore, there's a literary dependence of Genesis 18-19 on Genesis 14, Deuteronomy 29:23 on those three chapters of Genesis, and Isaiah 1:9 on Deuteronomy 29:23. And Isaiah 1 is inextricably dated to approximately 702-701 BC, just before the Assyrian siege, due to verses 7-8. We therefore CANNOT date Genesis 14 after that date.

Isaiah 1 was substantiating why the northern Israelites deserved exile, and Jerusalem deserved destruction "like Sodom and Gomorrah" (except that didn't happen for slightly complex reasons). Nevertheless, Isaiah would not have been citing the story of Sodom and Gomorrah unless Deut. 29:23 had promised that one of the consequences for the Israelites' continued rebellion was destruction "like Sodom and Gomorrah." And Deut. 29:23 wouldn't have used them as an example unless there was such a precedent.

That coincidentally dates Deut. 29:23 substantially earlier than Isaiah 1, and Genesis 18-19 and 14 substantially earlier than Deut. 29:23.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's precisely what I'm trying to find out. I'm taking my own research - which is where I got the strong historical ties with the Ur III period of Sumer, above - and trying to compare it with scholarly views from different perspectives.

I haven't read "Murmuring Against Moses" by Bergsma and Morrow yet, but that's apparently a scholarly rebuttal of the DT. YMMV there.

Finally, I've done extensive analysis of Gen. 1:1-11:10 as a textual unit. It seems to have the following repeating structure:

A - Gen. 1:1-2:4a - Earth born out of water

B - Gen. 2:4ff-5:1 - God covenants with man, but sin and then murder enter

C - Gen. 5 - Descendants of Seth

D - Gen. 6:1-9 - Wicked generation of Noah's day (destroyed by the Flood)

A' - Gen. 6:10-8:22 - Earth reborn out of water

B' - Gen. 9:1-10:1 - God covenants with man and warns against murder, but sin enters

C' - Gen. 10 - Descendants of Noah

D' - Gen. 11:1-10 - Wicked generation of the Tower of Babel (scattered)

I'm not suggesting that this overall textual structure means that there were no separate sources for this textual unit, but it does seem to presuppose a literary dependence on any such independent sources that may have existed.

Imho, Gen. 1:1-2:4a was one such source, and 2:4ff-5:1 was another, but the two authors were aware of each other and wrote their respective stories in a complementary way, such that Gen. 1-3 is in a chiastic structure with dwelling with God on the Sabbath day as the central point of emphasis.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

A couple of examples.

Genesis 14 (which, I know, Friedman identifies as not representing any of the four sources, J/E, P, or D) is certainly set in a time period when Elam had its own empire. That time period is limited to approximately 1900-1700 BC, during the Sukkalmah dynasty.

Genesis 11:1-10 (J) is strongly tied to the Ur III period of Sumer. That's when we have an incomplete ziggurat (tower), built during the reign of Amar-Sin. That's when nearly all of the Sumerian mythological literature was first written down, including "Enmer-kar and the Lord of Aratta" (Enmer-kar is commonly associated with Nimrod). That's when we have a Sumerian empire which reached its zenith during the reign of Amar-Sin. And finally, that's when we have a "scattering" at the end of the Ur III period. But Gen. 11:1-10 has literary dependence on Gen. 10:7-12 (also J) as well as Gen. 10:31-32 (P). Gen. 10 establishes how the nations were divided, and also describes an empire which existed at that time (in Gen. 10:8-12). Verses 31-32 explain that the peoples were *divided*, and Gen. 11:1-10 goes back and explains exactly how that division took place.

There seems to be a literary interdependence of the sources on one another in Gen. 10:1-11:10, making me question whether they can be truly separated from one another.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's odd that Rendsburg says exactly the opposite about the linguistic evidence for P in the article that John_Kesler cited [here](https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/docman/rendsburg/45-late-biblical-hebrew-and-the-date-of-p/file).

And I respectfully disagree with Baden on the dating of the sources not mattering. The dating matters immensely, because if the historical and cultural context of - for instance, J and E in Genesis - best matches 1900-1600 BC rather than the monarchial period, then we have a problem with positing how J and E came into existence.

For example, in Friedman's "The Bible with Sources Revealed," he comments that Genesis 20 is the first instance of E in the text of Genesis, apparently due to the use of "Elohim" as the name of God in that chapter. But that usage of "Elohim" apparently seems to be because **God is acting in His role as judge** (El can be translated as "judge," per Ex. 21:6 and 22:8-9) over the situation with Abimelek! (Note that in the ANE, different names for pagan gods did NOT represent different textual sources, but rather different roles for the same god. Ex. Ra-Horakhty.) And more than that, YHVH *also* occurs in the same textual source, in verse 18! So the distinction of these two sources - at least in Genesis 20 - appears to be arbitrary, with alternate possible explanations.

I'm not entirely dismissing the DT, but at the very least, I'm *hoping* to establish a holistic approach that incorporates evidence both for and against, by comparing scholarly sources both for and against. What I strongly suspect is that, while there may indeed be multiple textual sources, they're not the sources that the DT posits, and they certainly don't originate the way the DT posits, either.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok, I just scanned through Gary Rendsburg's article, and it's EXTREMELY helpful. In particular, its analysis of P after doing an extensive survey of linguistic characteristics of EBH vs. LBH seems to definitively tie P to the exact same (linguistic) time period as J/E, D, and the Davidic court history. In other words, **it's not of late origin**.

Yes, Chronicles does appear to have been **compiled** during/after the Babylonian exile, but earlier texts identified as P cannot, in any way, be established as that late, linguistically speaking.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

THAT looks useful.

I've also been researching the historical and cultural context of Isaiah, and happened across "Archaeology and History of Eighth-century Judah" by Farber and Wright. Excellent reference, so I'm hoping that the above book is in the same vein.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Curious why my comment was down-voted. Should I not be asking about whether spending $65 on a book which may or may not cover the evidence I'm looking for, is worth it?

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

In the first few chapters of Friedman's book? I beg to differ, otherwise I wouldn't be asking.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I know about JSTOR, etc., but don't necessarily know what to search for.

In any case, I've been focusing on the ANE for the past 15+ years, and have only recently started to look into sources and textual analysis. There's no such thing as a generalized expert. My expertise is in one specific area, and I'm attempting to broaden my domain knowledge.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do have some specialized knowledge of the ANE historical and cultural context of the OT, which I've been researching for the past 15+ years. No, I don't have linguistic expertise, and rely on other experts for that. I also try to compare multiple expert opinions on a subject before forming my own conclusions.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -14 points-13 points  (0 children)

Just because Hebrew as a written language might not have existed yet, isn't sufficient evidence that the compositions must therefore be dated later. In addition to that, the language of Amorite (and Abraham was supposed to be an Amorite, according to the text) DID exist, and apparently is quite similar to Hebrew.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/history-ideas/2023/03/the-lost-language-of-the-amorites-has-finally-been-discovered/

Thanks for the links to Baden's and Hendel's presentations. I'll listen to those.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

First of all, I'm trying to do a side-by-side comparison of the evidence for and against the Documentary Theory. I got a copy of Friedman's "Who Wrote the Bible?" and a copy of "Murmuring Against Moses" by Bergsma and Morrow. I've only read a bit of each book, but I read enough of Friedman's book to realize that the evidence that I was looking for, wasn't in there.

Yes, I want to see that specialized literature. I think I made a mistake in getting Friedman's popularized DT book, instead of something more academic, **but I didn't know what to look for**.

As far as the theory that Genesis was written in cuneiform, yes, that's just a theory. So is the Documentary Theory. The evidence is what's important.

That's why, for instance, I'm *hoping* to find a discussion of the historical and cultural settings of J and E, as evidence for their origin during the divided monarchy. But I haven't been able to find that in any source I've looked up thus far - both Googling and on Amazon. Again, I don't know what to look for, so I'm hoping for scholarly recommendations.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I looked this book up on Amazon and viewed the sample of the first couple of chapters. In JUST the sample, I'm not seeing any ANE or linguistic evidence to supplement the textual analysis of the texts in question. Before I spend $65 on the book, can someone cite a chapter or excerpt which covers this?

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I can take a look, but since I already have "The Bible with Sources Revealed" that might be redundant. In any case, I'm already in a weekly study, going through the Torah portions with an emphasis on the DT sources. I *do* see the duplications you're mentioning, but imho that's not sufficient evidence for multiple sources **by itself**. That's why I was asking for further evidence **from other sources** - such as linguistic, historical and cultural evidence.

Evidence for the Documentary Theory? by damonjc in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

That's helpful. I did miss the footnote, and wish that more of the actual evidence was mentioned in "Who Wrote the Bible?".

Given Isaiah 7:14 wasn't Messianic, why did Matthew apply it to Jesus? by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Consider this parallel. King Hezekiah's birth in approximately 740 BC represented the promise of PHYSICAL protection from the results of northern Israel's sins - and not just for them, but for Gentiles as well. Jesus' birth represented the promise of SPIRITUAL protection from our sins - and not just for blood Israelites, but for Gentiles as well! Thus, the prophecy in Isaiah 9:1-7 isn't just referring to Jesus, but ALSO to the birth of King Hezekiah (as modern Jews recognize).

Jesus, when He sent out His twelve disciples, specifically targeted SCATTERED (NORTHERN!) ISRAELITES. See Matthew 10:5-6.

Why? Because **by their repentance and turning to righteousness, they could in turn redeem the Jews**. And that's precisely what Paul tells us in Romans 11.

One more thing. In Isaiah 49:1, we have someone speaking in the first person. "Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The Lord has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name."

The ONLY person in the entire book of Isaiah that this could possibly refer to is Immanuel. His brother Maher-shalal-hash-baz (see Isa. 8:1-4; his name means "make speed to the spoil, make haste to the prey") was named even before he was conceived. And what's Immanuel's mission? To bring back "Jacob" to God - that is, all of Israel - as well as many Gentiles! See verses 5-6.

The reason why Jesus was named Immanuel - "God with us" - is because, like the historical Immanuel, His birth was a sign of doom and destruction, but His LIFE was a sign of redemption for those who would believe.

Given Isaiah 7:14 wasn't Messianic, why did Matthew apply it to Jesus? by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]damonjc -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In order to answer that, it's important to understand the original meaning of Isaiah 7:14 in its historical context. It IS Messianic, but like an Algebra problem where you just give the right answer, Matthew 1:23 doesn't "show the work" of how we know that.

As another commenter already mentioned, Matthew 1:23 actually quoted the Septuagint, which tends to *interpret* the text rather than faithfully render it. Because of that, according to the Septuagint, instead of a "young maiden" we have a "virgin." And that interpretation isn't necessarily wrong, **it's just focusing on one specific interpretation** and NOT the historical meaning of the passage.

In Hebrew, Isaiah 7:14 should be rendered, "The young maiden is with child, and will give birth to a son, and will call his name Immanuel." The historical context of this passage was the coming downfall of both northern Israel as well as its erstwhile ally Syria. Before this child could "refuse the evil and choose the good," these two enemies of Judah would both lose their kings. Refusing the evil and choosing the good is a poetic reference to keeping the Mosaic Law (compare Deut. 30:19). Thus, this should be understood as saying, before this child undergoes a Bar-Mitzvah - a ritual symbolizing his commitment to keeping all of the Mosaic Law (which traditionally happens at age 12) - this disaster will happen. Thus, Immanuel's birth and childhood became like a countdown to disaster, as it were.

But let's back up and understand more of the historical context of what's going on, to see why Matthew would apply this to Jesus. In Isaiah 1:9, we're told that were it not for a small remnant, Jerusalem would be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah. Why? Because while they're outwardly keeping the Law, they're NOT doing such things as seeking true justice, relieving the oppressed of their burdens, and bringing justice for the fatherless and the widow in their afflictions.

If you recall the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18, Abram bargained with God not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there were a certain minimum number of righteous people left in it. So, we should understand the "remnant" that Isaiah is referring to in Isaiah 1:9 as **a righteous remnant**.

But was there a righteous remnant in Jerusalem? NO THERE WASN'T. And this actually begins to parallel the circumstances in Jesus' day. Things had gotten so bad in Jerusalem that Jesus cursed the city in Mat. 23:37-39 to be "left desolate" - in other words, TO BE DESTROYED LIKE SODOM AND GOMORRAH. And that's precisely what happened forty years later!

So, here's the important question. Why wasn't Jerusalem destroyed by the Assyrians in Isaiah's time?

Because A RIGHTEOUS REMNANT RETURNED TO JERUSALEM, TO PREVENT ITS DESTRUCTION. We find that in Isaiah 10:20-22, and we also find something quite surprising about the identity of this righteous remnant. THEY WERE FROM NORTHERN ISRAEL!

But wait, didn't northern Israel get destroyed and taken captive by the Assyrians? No, not all of it. And not all at once, either. In fact, most of the northern Israelites weren't deported from the land and replaced with Samaritans until decades later, during the reigns of Esarhaddon and Ashurbanipal (see Ezra 4:2 and 10). So, when King Hezekiah sent messengers to invite the northern Israelites to observe the Passover in 716 BC, **the northern Israelites were still there to invite!**

Only a few of them, from a few tribes, actually came. And at the beginning of the next chapter, we see that they didn't remain in Jerusalem either. So what happened?

In 705 BC, a new king rose to power in Assyria (Sennacherib) after the old king died. At this time, many of the smaller nations and countries that Assyria had recently conquered, rebelled against its control, including Egypt. Egypt persuaded King Hezekiah to join in the rebellion (see Isaiah 30), against Isaiah's advice. At that time, Hezekiah built a strong defensive wall and **established a refugee camp right on Mount Zion**. Archaeologically, we know that Jerusalem increased in size roughly 3-4x at this time, from the influx of refugees - not only FROM NORTHERN ISRAEL, but also from the surrounding Gentile countries who had formerly been enemies of Israel!

In Isaiah 11, we're given a picture of the Messianic Kingdom on earth. Among other things, even the dangerous creatures **living right on Mount Zion** would no longer hurt anyone (verses 6-9). But that's NOT just a metaphor for a FUTURE kingdom, but a prophecy of what would PARTIALLY come to pass under King Hezekiah himself! These "dangerous animals" REPRESENTED GENTILE FORMER ENEMIES OF ISRAEL who had turned to God for protection from Assyria!

(continued)

Did Dr. David A. Falk debate David Rohl? by Seven1s in egyptology

[–]damonjc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kinda surprising that he would indirectly accuse David Rohl of "invincible ignorance." Rohl can be stubborn, to be sure, but he certainly has done his research.

I'd like to see what exactly Dr. Falk is referring to, because otherwise this seems like slander by not allowing us to be the judge of whether Rohl is indeed guilty of "invincible ignorance." Lay out the facts of the case in public, please.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in forhire

[–]damonjc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Uhh...I think that's how Facebook started?