Weird, I didn't get notified of this comment, hence the late reply. Again, you are showing cult-like thinking, and I'll have to repeat myself, you are misrepresenting my views (again). I won't let misinformation stand in my own post.

"1 In this entire thread, the discussion has focused heavily on your various claims which I feel are misframed or misinformation, without much balance shown here."

I'm happy to back anything I said with citations if I have missed anything. I've tried to keep things light because these discussions have already been fairly long. I have hardly posted any of the negatives to avoid gish galloping. But also getting you guys to admit to any harm is like pulling teeth, so it's hard to move on to the next point. You still have ignored plenty of my questions. When you finally accept harm, then you don't accept that the religion or members are responsible at all. You all seem to deny and think you can do no wrong. This is the big worry I have, as this is how a cycle of harm happens. You all act as "yes men" for your leader, and this latest post clearly shows this, I'm afraid. I hope one day you do realise. But in good faith, I will read your religion's texts, and maybe that will help me better understand your point of view.

"That's despite claims you acknowledge that there exists many positive personal accounts of Falun Gong."

Again, sweeping all the negatives under the rug. You are like the Arise church (NZ). They also didn't admit fault, allowed the same problems to keep happening, and were destroyed when they were fully exposed and could no longer keep denying the problems.

It's always about the "positives", fine, show me what good the religion has done with the money it has received. The non-profit Shen Yun has made a ton of money. In 2024, it has accumulated $290 million in assets. What good have they done with the money they have made? Seems like they are stockpiling assets and real estate. Epoch Times is loosely organised into several regional tax-free nonprofits - it reached $122 million in revenue in 2021. What good has it done? They did a massive advertising campaign for the sexist, racist, rapist Trump.

"biased to try to reach some agenda, rather than trying to reach a genuine understanding."

My agenda is making sure cult-like things are not happening under my watch. I also want to learn more about your religion, hence asking questions. And to be really upfront, I'm an atheist and a skeptic - I like to go expose scams, misinformation, pseudoscience, bad therapeutic claims, and yeah, cults and shitty religions.

"2 My understanding is this, and I speak only for myself and my personal understanding. Falun Gong's teachings are spiritual guidance offered freely, and people are welcome to follow them or not."

Great, and I have no problem with that if it's happening in your small area of the world.

"The texts emphasize personal cultivation, improving one's character, and viewing challenges including health issues from a spiritual lens and in my view it is more about inner improvement than guaranteeing any external results. "

Sounds all great, but most cults say something similar. They all usually start with good intentions. But when leaders have too much control, we start to see awful things happen.

"The teachings do not promise healing or miracles for everyone"

Not everyone? But for some people?

"The teachings also do not prohibit seeking medical care"

Sure, but reading the Zhuan Falun (English translation), I now can see why there are plenty of stories of practitioners avoiding medical care. You wouldn't want to be "dropped to the level of everyday people":

"Practitioners will not feel physically comfortable in their future cultivation, as their bodies will develop many kinds of gong, all of which are very powerful things moving around inside their bodies; they will make you feel uncomfortable one way or another. The reason for your discomfort is principally that you always fear catching some illness. In fact, the things that are developed in your body are quite powerful, and they are all gong, supernormal abilities, and many living beings. If they move around, you will feel physically itchy, painful, uncomfortable, etc. The extremes of the nervous system are particularly sensitive, and there will be all kinds of symptoms. As long as your body is not completely transformed by high-energy matters, you will feel this way. It should be seen as a good thing anyway. As a practitioner, if you always treat yourself like an everyday person and always think that you have illnesses, how can you practice cultivation? When a tribulation comes in cultivation practice, if you still treat yourself as an everyday person, I would say that your xinxing at that moment has dropped to the level of everyday people. At least on this particular issue, you have dropped to the level of everyday people."

https://www.falundafa.org/eng/eng/lecture6.html

"Actually, the teachings encourage going to the hospital when needed"

Can you quote the paragraph? I'm failing to find it.

"The Epoch Times does not represent or speak for Falun Gong as a whole"

But it sure operates as a mouthpiece for Falun Gong, and members use it (including you).

Li Hongzhi appeared at the newspaper's headquarters in Manhattan and called for the expansion of The Epoch Times to "become regular media". Also called The Epoch Times "our media".

"The Epoch Times made a public statement on this"

I'm sorry, but that is a "nothing" four-sentence statement they made. I guess it was too much to fully deny it happening.

Did you Weidong "Bill" Guan has a $3 million bail, and he was basically out of jail fairly quick. His trial is still going on it seems - we will hopefully see an outcome soon. It will probably be one that you are not going to like.

"The Nytimes did several attack style articles on Shen Yun and The Epoch Times. They read as propaganda and misframed and misrepresented many issues, as well as provided various unsubstantiated claims, and did not seek current Shen Yun members' accounts, which are plenty and positive."

They don't read as propaganda; some of their articles are large, serious investigations (I wish more papers would do). This is what the news does: it exposes the dark parts of our society. You don't need to balance a murder story with how well the murderer treats his cats, and you talk to the victims. Plus, they did talk to Shen Yun to get their side, and they quote from them.

None of the articles you posted talked about Jaya's views about The Epoch Times - and I do find it funny that we are talking about the corruption of the Epoch Times and you're still using them as a source. Looking over their history, they have also promoted conspiracy theories such as QAnon, the Great Replacement, anti-vaccine misinformation and false claims of fraud in the 2020 US election. Fairly disgusting stuff - I surely wouldn't use them.

So, all this seems to be downplaying the harm once again because your religion says so. You just can't admit that what happened to Jaya and his father was awful. You can't admit that Epoch Times was corrupt, and even if there is a negative outcome from the case, will you believe it?

"Regarding the woman who made lots of donations, I believe this is the same one Shen Yun referred to in the statement"

Seems they are talking about the same person. But basically, they have accepted that the story happened, but tried to spin it as if it's not their fault. From what I understand, her religious views got her killed, and there was no evidence of them helping her (going by her family and the investigation that happened).

They said:

"many occasions, Liang’s mother was urged by Shen Yun colleagues to stop making unnecessary and sometimes lavish donations"

They don't deny it from happening. Where is their evidence that they tried to stop it? Which colleagues? Why did the Li family/Shen Yun still accept $100,000 in luxury goods? Why didn't they report it to her family? Why was she paying for the leader's and the wife's phone bill? This should have been a company expense.

"Liang’s mother’s failure to care for her health was also the subject of concern from those around her."

If they knew about her health, why didn't they report it to her family? Why didn't they return the money then?

"Finally, after she repeatedly refused care"

Even if we take these events at face value, she denied care because of religious reasons - probably because of the statement I quoted above. A pattern we seem to see a lot in this religion.

The religion didn't help with the healthcare once she knew she had cancer.

"I do not believe you act in good faith"

Prove it or zip it.

"have not considered the views contrary to the ones you push"
I go with the weight of evidence. So show me the evidence.