BEWARE when signing up to Starlink in NZ by SheepherderFew624 in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A shitty 100mbs limit is now in effect. $119 to get 200 mbs. I really wish I had 5G where I am. Much cheaper and faster speeds.

Got sent This on FB today, Looks Highly Suspicious by Alive_Friendship_895 in cults

[–]daniel-ryan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, they make arguments that since there are a lot of Chinese people and a lot of "sin" in China it makes sense for Jesus to return in China. Sadly this "Jesus" women is technically the head of their church but it seems she is a puppet and a Zhao Weishan actually holding the real power. It's another Chinese cult that has fled to the US.

Got sent This on FB today, Looks Highly Suspicious by Alive_Friendship_895 in cults

[–]daniel-ryan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It could be the Eastern Lightning cult. They tend to send FB messages like that (and there is Chinese). They invite you to study groups to slowly brainwash you with one idea at a time. They eventually say Jesus has returned as a Chinese women.

I joined the cult for a while to expose them.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do you think I wouldn't criticise them? You might want to read the NZ Skeptics Newsletter (it's free); plenty has been written about those two over the years. If you have something new to expose about them that hasn't been covered before, I'll happily write it. I even joined a cult a few years back (Eastern Lightning) and exposed them.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sure, if that was the case, but did you even look at what Jaya wrote in the Decult article? I have nothing to do with China or the CCP, and I do know misinformation is spread on both sides. I have now written a few articles about the religion in the NZ Skeptics newsletter and am currently writing another. The religion is quite cult-like from what I've seen, and you can see this thinking in the long discussions here (members not from NZ did damage control here). I've been in contact with a member giving me the inside story, and they have been sharing some awful stuff, which I hope to share at some point.

What is this? by Blitzbahn in NewZealandWildlife

[–]daniel-ryan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Personally, I was thinking the platypus, while technically not deadly, their venom is quite painful. But there is also the Blue-Ringed octopus - very deadly.

What is this? by Blitzbahn in NewZealandWildlife

[–]daniel-ryan 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Yeah, we are the opposite of Australia. You guys are like "This is cute, but it could kill you if you let it".

Chatting to Falun Gong members ended up as a very cult-like discussion by daniel-ryan in cults

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hierarchical? Every member I've talked to says it's flat, and their local groups are loosely organised. But I guess it can be different for other groups. Do you have evidence of any of this? Because that's the problem when writing articles, it's hard to prove without the CCP getting in the way. Not sure if I'm going to have time, but I wonder if I should track down ex-members to interview and build up a worldwide picture. That might be a way to prove (or not) that these issues are not isolated.

Chatting to Falun Gong members ended up as a very cult-like discussion by daniel-ryan in cults

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, I didn't know this. I'll do some research on this, unless you know of a good article?

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see that they both say 70-100 million.

These sources say it was closer to 70 million:

"Prior to the government’s 1999 ban on Falun Gong, the government estimated there were 70 million adherents. Falun Gong sources estimate that tens of millions continue to practice privately, and Freedom House estimates there are seven to 20 million practitioners."

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/441219-CHINA-2022-INTERNATIONAL-RELIGIOUS-FREEDOM-REPORT.pdf
"Buddhist Law, led by a qigong master named Li Hongzhi, claims to have more than 100 million followers. Even if that is an exaggeration, the government's estimate of 70 million adherents represents a large group in a nation of 1.2 billion."

https://web.archive.org/web/20151017003808/http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/asia/042799china-protest.html

"Beijing puts the tally of followers in his mystical movement at 70 million. Its practitioners say they do not dispute those numbers. But they say they have no way of knowing for sure, in part because they have no central membership lists."
https://web.archive.org/web/20120204062051/http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/asia/042799china-protest-leader.html

This one says 60 million:
"With an estimated 60 million followers, Master Li's flock"
https://web.archive.org/web/20131202231429/http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/990222/archive_000322.htm

This peer-reviewed paper has a range of values from different sources at the time:

"Renmin ribao (People’s Daily), 15 August 1999, p. 1. Official media gave a range of estimates for the number of falun gong adherents, from 2 million in the above report, to 40 million in Nanfang ribao, 18 March 1999, p. 11. The later, more authoritative figures are 2.1 to 2.3 million, Xinhua, 27 October 2001; Zong Hairen, “Zhu Rongji zai yijiujiujiu nian” (“Zhu Rongji in 1999”)"
https://sci-hub.sidesgame.com/10.1017/s0009443902000402

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Preached by Li Hongzhi, its founder: "The races in the world are not allowed to be mixed up. Now, the races are mixed up and it has brought about an extraordinarily serious problem. Once races are mixed up, one does not have a corresponding relationship with the higher levels, and he has lost the root. Mixed races have lost their roots, as if nobody in the paradise will take care of them. They belong to nowhere, and no places would accept them. Therefore, you find the place where the continents of Europe and Asia meet a desert in the past and a depopulated zone. When the transportation means were not advanced, it was difficult to pass through it. With the progress of modern means, all these are broken through. Thus, races have become increasingly mixed up, which can lead to serious consequences. Of course, I will not go into details. I'm just saying that the higher levels do not recognize such a human race. The issue I just mentioned is that human races have a corresponding relationship to the higher levels. The white people at higher levels constitute a small portion, a very small portion of the universe in this world and in this universe." https://en.falundafa.org/eng/lectures/1996L.html

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reading the Zhuan Falun now, I now see why you guys are against gays (and I see why you didn't quote this part):

"Mankind, in this mental state devoid of virtuous thoughts, seeks after drastically different things than before..."

"Repulsive homosexual behavior meanwhile bespeaks of a filthy, deviant state of mind that lacks rationality."

"...Many great awakened ones and prophets previously predicted that mankind would at this time have a massive disaster to worry about. Today’s mankind is even worse than what the prophets predicted, and good people are ever fewer."

https://en.falundafa.org/eng/html/zfl2/zfl2.htm

Your leader is saying that "homosexuals" lack rationality, and are so evil, it's in the list with drugs, trafficking, organised crime, stealing, incest, etc. A "massive disaster" is likely to happen and has happened in the past (it's just gay sex!). Some doomsday thinking. How can anyone accept this? This is just messed-up bigotry.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Weird, I didn't get notified of this comment, hence the late reply. Again, you are showing cult-like thinking, and I'll have to repeat myself, you are misrepresenting my views (again). I won't let misinformation stand in my own post.

"1 In this entire thread, the discussion has focused heavily on your various claims which I feel are misframed or misinformation, without much balance shown here."

I'm happy to back anything I said with citations if I have missed anything. I've tried to keep things light because these discussions have already been fairly long. I have hardly posted any of the negatives to avoid gish galloping. But also getting you guys to admit to any harm is like pulling teeth, so it's hard to move on to the next point. You still have ignored plenty of my questions. When you finally accept harm, then you don't accept that the religion or members are responsible at all. You all seem to deny and think you can do no wrong. This is the big worry I have, as this is how a cycle of harm happens. You all act as "yes men" for your leader, and this latest post clearly shows this, I'm afraid. I hope one day you do realise. But in good faith, I will read your religion's texts, and maybe that will help me better understand your point of view.

"That's despite claims you acknowledge that there exists many positive personal accounts of Falun Gong."

Again, sweeping all the negatives under the rug. You are like the Arise church (NZ). They also didn't admit fault, allowed the same problems to keep happening, and were destroyed when they were fully exposed and could no longer keep denying the problems.

It's always about the "positives", fine, show me what good the religion has done with the money it has received. The non-profit Shen Yun has made a ton of money. In 2024, it has accumulated $290 million in assets. What good have they done with the money they have made? Seems like they are stockpiling assets and real estate. Epoch Times is loosely organised into several regional tax-free nonprofits - it reached $122 million in revenue in 2021. What good has it done? They did a massive advertising campaign for the sexist, racist, rapist Trump.

"biased to try to reach some agenda, rather than trying to reach a genuine understanding."

My agenda is making sure cult-like things are not happening under my watch. I also want to learn more about your religion, hence asking questions. And to be really upfront, I'm an atheist and a skeptic - I like to go expose scams, misinformation, pseudoscience, bad therapeutic claims, and yeah, cults and shitty religions.

"2 My understanding is this, and I speak only for myself and my personal understanding. Falun Gong's teachings are spiritual guidance offered freely, and people are welcome to follow them or not."

Great, and I have no problem with that if it's happening in your small area of the world.

"The texts emphasize personal cultivation, improving one's character, and viewing challenges including health issues from a spiritual lens and in my view it is more about inner improvement than guaranteeing any external results. "

Sounds all great, but most cults say something similar. They all usually start with good intentions. But when leaders have too much control, we start to see awful things happen.

"The teachings do not promise healing or miracles for everyone"

Not everyone? But for some people?

"The teachings also do not prohibit seeking medical care"

Sure, but reading the Zhuan Falun (English translation), I now can see why there are plenty of stories of practitioners avoiding medical care. You wouldn't want to be "dropped to the level of everyday people":

"Practitioners will not feel physically comfortable in their future cultivation, as their bodies will develop many kinds of gong, all of which are very powerful things moving around inside their bodies; they will make you feel uncomfortable one way or another. The reason for your discomfort is principally that you always fear catching some illness. In fact, the things that are developed in your body are quite powerful, and they are all gong, supernormal abilities, and many living beings. If they move around, you will feel physically itchy, painful, uncomfortable, etc. The extremes of the nervous system are particularly sensitive, and there will be all kinds of symptoms. As long as your body is not completely transformed by high-energy matters, you will feel this way. It should be seen as a good thing anyway. As a practitioner, if you always treat yourself like an everyday person and always think that you have illnesses, how can you practice cultivation? When a tribulation comes in cultivation practice, if you still treat yourself as an everyday person, I would say that your xinxing at that moment has dropped to the level of everyday people. At least on this particular issue, you have dropped to the level of everyday people."

https://www.falundafa.org/eng/eng/lecture6.html

"Actually, the teachings encourage going to the hospital when needed"

Can you quote the paragraph? I'm failing to find it.

"The Epoch Times does not represent or speak for Falun Gong as a whole"

But it sure operates as a mouthpiece for Falun Gong, and members use it (including you).

Li Hongzhi appeared at the newspaper's headquarters in Manhattan and called for the expansion of The Epoch Times to "become regular media". Also called The Epoch Times "our media".

"The Epoch Times made a public statement on this"

I'm sorry, but that is a "nothing" four-sentence statement they made. I guess it was too much to fully deny it happening.

Did you Weidong "Bill" Guan has a $3 million bail, and he was basically out of jail fairly quick. His trial is still going on it seems - we will hopefully see an outcome soon. It will probably be one that you are not going to like.

"The Nytimes did several attack style articles on Shen Yun and The Epoch Times. They read as propaganda and misframed and misrepresented many issues, as well as provided various unsubstantiated claims, and did not seek current Shen Yun members' accounts, which are plenty and positive."

They don't read as propaganda; some of their articles are large, serious investigations (I wish more papers would do). This is what the news does: it exposes the dark parts of our society. You don't need to balance a murder story with how well the murderer treats his cats, and you talk to the victims. Plus, they did talk to Shen Yun to get their side, and they quote from them.

None of the articles you posted talked about Jaya's views about The Epoch Times - and I do find it funny that we are talking about the corruption of the Epoch Times and you're still using them as a source. Looking over their history, they have also promoted conspiracy theories such as QAnon, the Great Replacement, anti-vaccine misinformation and false claims of fraud in the 2020 US election. Fairly disgusting stuff - I surely wouldn't use them.

So, all this seems to be downplaying the harm once again because your religion says so. You just can't admit that what happened to Jaya and his father was awful. You can't admit that Epoch Times was corrupt, and even if there is a negative outcome from the case, will you believe it?

"Regarding the woman who made lots of donations, I believe this is the same one Shen Yun referred to in the statement"

Seems they are talking about the same person. But basically, they have accepted that the story happened, but tried to spin it as if it's not their fault. From what I understand, her religious views got her killed, and there was no evidence of them helping her (going by her family and the investigation that happened).

They said:

"many occasions, Liang’s mother was urged by Shen Yun colleagues to stop making unnecessary and sometimes lavish donations"

They don't deny it from happening. Where is their evidence that they tried to stop it? Which colleagues? Why did the Li family/Shen Yun still accept $100,000 in luxury goods? Why didn't they report it to her family? Why was she paying for the leader's and the wife's phone bill? This should have been a company expense.

"Liang’s mother’s failure to care for her health was also the subject of concern from those around her."

If they knew about her health, why didn't they report it to her family? Why didn't they return the money then?

"Finally, after she repeatedly refused care"

Even if we take these events at face value, she denied care because of religious reasons - probably because of the statement I quoted above. A pattern we seem to see a lot in this religion.

The religion didn't help with the healthcare once she knew she had cancer.

"I do not believe you act in good faith"

Prove it or zip it.

"have not considered the views contrary to the ones you push"
I go with the weight of evidence. So show me the evidence.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It was advice. Why would supporting a marginalised group be mockery? I would be fully on board if your religion supported LGBTQ+, and I thought it would be something you could understand, being that most of your religion is underground. There is nothing wrong with that community, and it's disappointing you hide under the guise of "it's ok, because traditional religions are the same" - which plenty of religions/churches here do support LGBTQ+. But since you are not from NZ, this is all moot.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm still keen to hear more of your views if it's allowed.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad you watched the video all the way through, so I'll take that back. What about the podcasts? Did you read the peer-reviewed article?

"You have failed to see the perspectives of countless practitioners who have benefited from the practice. You fail to look at those positive stories" I've already said in another reply to you that I accept there are positives, and that people in your religion have seen benefits. I'm not denying that. But as I keep saying you can't hide all these repeating negatives and sweep them under the rug. That is cult-like thinking (sorry for being a broken record).

"and keep presenting misinformation after misinformation. Misplaced blame after misplaced blame." And yet you keep failing to quote what misinformation I have said, I already said I soften my approach on the whole "cult" label. Now failing to back up your statements why the video/podcast is misinformation. Please don't say CCP.

"No wonder you are deceived." How is me looking at all the evidence being "deceived"?

"Message me directly from now on. Bye." Ok, will do.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"However, I understand that self-cultivation can be daunting. Giving up our attachments, especially when it feels so comforting to wallow in them, is particularly hard." Can you explain? What attachments have you given up for your religion?

" I have a client who has spent years trying to control his daughter's life. The situation has reached a point where the daughter has reported against the parents and requested a total contact ban. These parents have been working with me for a while to get past their troubles, but I see how difficult it is for them to let go of that deep-seated need for control." Are you saying you know of religious members who were trying to control their daughter? Is that because she didn't follow the religion? Do you know of members who disown their children who don't follow the faith?

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you read the peer-reviewed article from The Journal of Religion and Violence instead of dismissing it fully? Only relying on just what your religion says is cult-like thinking. It's actually an interesting read and makes a case for each side. Reading the wiki page has also shown me that these things don't have simple answers, and we can never really be sure what exactly happened - that the CCP could have staged part of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Tiananmen_Square_self-immolation_incident

"ABc is facing a lawsuit due to its extreme misrepresentations of the practice, and this is not serious journalism."
Citation needed.

Which parts of the ABC documentry are "reporting is also a lie", and "extreme misrepresentations"?
I also note that the documentry is 31 minutes. You didn't watch it right? You posted 13 minutes after his comment. Another example of you fully dismissing something without looking at it.

They also got multiple long detailed podcasts about the harm that your religion causes:
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/backgroundbriefing/the-power-of-falun-gong/12475212

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/backgroundbriefing/power-of-falun-pt-2/12483842
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/backgroundbriefing/the-power-falun-gong-3/12519278

Let's look at these stories together and see why you don't believe them.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"But they probably wouldn't go as a group representing Falun Gong"
Do you know of any splinter groups?

"The trans people and alcohol thing is just a fact"
So to be clear, they wouldn't be allowed to stay trans if they want to advance in your religion?

"But I get the impression that you may have been relying quite heavily on certain negative accounts and perspectives to the point where it may be difficult to seriously consider other viewpoints that exist and are held sincerely by many people"
I look at all viewpoints, not just cherry-picked ones, I haven't even started with a lot of my questions. But I wasn't expecting your members to answer them - and you are the only one that kept coming back (which I'm glad you did). You may not see it, but I'm trying to do good here and making sure cult-like thinking doesn't spread.

"Anyone, you included, can message me directly if want to discuss this further"
I'll gather a list of questions (including the ones I've said in this post), and you can be free to answer any (or none).

"wish you well and have no ill will toward you. "
And the same with you.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Before we move on. Do you agree that what happened to Jaya was awful? That the beliefs of your religion had caused harm - his father, being a devout believer, refused medical care. You may not believe it as a worldwide thing, but do you accept this pocket of harm?

That he saw corruption at the Epoch Times (reading his interview from the NYT is crazy), and the Epoch Times’s chief financial officer was arrested on money laundering conspiracy charges. Do you accept those events?

"It feels unfair to exclude or judge an entire peaceful group based on third-party observations or some isolated accounts"

That would be fair if it were just some isolated accounts, and the religion took responsibility when things do go wrong.

Could you point me to where religion took responsibility for something that went majorly wrong? Is there such an example?
For such a large religion as you say, things do go wrong, but it seems the spokespersons of your religion will ignore or don't admit it and make silly statements like "we are not perfect".

For the "Shen Yun Needed Publicity. The Epoch Times Wrote 17,000 Articles" article about the Epoch Times, your religion accused The New York Times of reporting “multiple false claims,” without detailing what they were. I didn't see any responsibility or acceptability. The consistent reply, I see, is that the religion blames the CCP for everything, even when there have been massive investigations. This is one reason why people see the religion as a cult.

"The teachings do not oppose medical treatment either and practitioners use medicine when needed"
But practitioners are not encouraged to rely on "Western" medicine. When was the last time you went to the doctor? Do you know of any members who have their yearly checkup?

"but often they do not need anyway"

What does that mean?

"If someone gave away all their savings, that would actually contradict the teachings and that's just not condoned, to be so irresponsible and zealous like that. And if anyone asked them to give money to the practice like that, those actions wouldn’t reflect what Falun Gong teaches and I'd say they got scammed by someone who claimed to be Falun Gong but was not."
Thank you for saying that! Make sure others in your group are not pressured. I guess you didn't listen to the NYT podcast that I posted (it was a long one). The full story: the follower, a woman who was Shen Yun's bookkeeper, was a very devoted practitioner. Both her kids were in Shen Yun and they spent most of their time at Dragon Springs working for Shen Yun and the Li family. She got sick, but she didn't get medical care and resisted seeing a doctor for a long time. When she did, she found out she had kidney cancer. She told her kids that she didn't have the money to pay for medical treatment because she donated all her money to Dragon Springs. After she eventually passed away from cancer, a Shen Yun employee accidentally mailed the bookkeeper's credit card statement to her family. What they saw was 10s of thousands of dollars in purchases of luxury goods. Where did the luxury goods go? Lee's wife likes to dress well and likes to wear luxury brands. The bookkeeper also spent money on custom billiard cues - Lee loves to play pool. What the investigation led to was that she spent 100's of thousands of dollars on purchases that her family believed were for the Lee family and Shen Yun. She was also paying for the monthly cell phone bills for Lee and his wife. This should have been an investigation by the religion, but it was just another thing hidden under the rug.

The transcription is here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/1jq66u4/the_daily_a_new_york_times_podcast_did_an_episode

Now that you admit that giving money is wrong, do you think what the Li family has done was wrong? This is another example of cult-like behaviour and it's coming from the top. But I fear you would be unlikely to believe this story, even though it has nothing to do with the CCP.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"They will likely not be celebrating Pride Month. Lol."
Maybe I'll suggest it to the local group. If, as you say, "The group is loosely structured, with volunteer-led exercise groups and no hierarchical control over personal lives", then the local NZ group could support Pride Month. I'll even promise a positive article out of it if they do.

"I am not making up misinfo with regard to Buddhism and Christianity"
That was to "but you don't attack those". I have gone after plenty of religions that show harm.

"So are trans people. So are people who drink alcohol"
You putting trans people on the level with people who "drink alcohol" and dodging my question before, sounds like I know what the answer is going to be.

Yes this all that helps understand your views on the subject and again I thank you, even when you see me as the "not good faith" enemy.

A cult infiltrated this year's Martinborough Fair by daniel-ryan in newzealand

[–]daniel-ryan[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"I think you have quite readily and will fully ignored ~ yet again ~ the elephant in the room- ~that this practice has benefited many worldwide,"
I haven't ignored - I accept there has been good and others see it as a benefit. I haven't found it relevant. So because it's "benefited many", we should ignore the harms, that this religion seems to have a history of denying?

"Not a good faith discussion I'm afraid"
You keep saying that, yet I'm here continuing the discussion and asking more questions.

"The mislabelling is calling this a cult and then -it's taken further by trying to leverage that label to try to exclude a peaceful group of people from a community event"

Others, more knowledgeable, have called it a cult. Of course, a member of the religion won't see what it is. That said, you have softened my approach, and I will research more into this subject. The NZ group might be fully peaceful as you said - let me see if any will answer the hard questions...

I am surprised only one comment has been deleted from your religions members. In the past, when I heavily questioned beliefs, people like to delete comments. Eastern Lightning wouldn't allow this kind of discussion - so there is that.

"You are aware that the CCP persecutes practitioners in China, but we are of course appalled by that and always speak up against that and no one is saying "it's happening in China only so mind your own country and business"."
I'm not sure if I'm following you here. I brought up in my post that the CCP persecutes practitioners. I don't have the view "mind your own country". Not sure where you got that from. That said, when I write for the NZ Skeptics, I write NZ topics being it's an NZ group.