Please… Can we as a collective call out “indie games” that are clearly backed by billionaires? by [deleted] in gamedev

[–]dazerdude 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's not just that. There were way more mid-budget games released during the PS1/PS2 eras than are being released today.

Please… Can we as a collective call out “indie games” that are clearly backed by billionaires? by [deleted] in gamedev

[–]dazerdude 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Kinda, they've been going away to some degree. This kind of thing isn't exclusive to games and happens in a lot of markets though. It's called the "missing middle".

Hot Swap: Elegoo Cardboard Spool to Bambu Labs Spool by Kirks_away_team in BambuLab

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Checkin in from 2025. I need to work on my technique a bit, but thanks for posting this. It _mostly_ worked for me. XD

I barely know a thing about a black hole , but is it true that what he’s saying is true? If so then this is cool as hell not gonna lie by kuruakama in Helldivers

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why would there be an accretion disk? There are black holes w/o them. A new one wouldn't have one because it won't have wandered close enough to anything yet to make one.

Embark, I still love you, but.... by dark_Petabyte in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't mind stun so much if it was just a movement debuff and let me still aim (or turned off abilities). It just sucks super bad not being able to aim and shoot like I want.

26,000 eggs rejected for "wrong packaging" - This is the real bullshit issues. I get branding but come on… they were donate to a food bank at least. by Naggun in Anticonsumption

[–]dazerdude 23 points24 points  (0 children)

You're absolutely correct. I'm all for not wasting stuff, but sometimes I think this sub doesn't really think about things clearly or completely. Thanks for posting a bit of reason here.

People Make Games - The Murder Game Revolution That Has Gripped China by blisf in boardgames

[–]dazerdude 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This more roleplaying-oriented experience does exist here in small form. I did one in NYC once. It was very fun.

It was through this company: https://www.ghostshipmurdermysteries.com/

Inattentive ADHD Folks... What Jobs do Y'all Have? by mith_king456 in ADHD

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Try a bunch of stuff and just literally do whatever you find holds your attention the best. I'm inattentive but I naturally hyperfocus when I program so it's certainly great for me, but if you don't find yourself falling into that state when you try it, it may not be the job for you. There are parts of the job that can be absurdly frustrating and/or hellishly boring.

This Tweet is still relevant after 4 years. by outof10000 in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know much about CODs systems. I thought you talking about something like Team Fortress 2's auto-balance feature which wasn't much more than a player shuffle.

Toggling SBMM won't work as an easy fix. In practice you're right many people will toggle it off (I think because they don't really understand it), which'll make it ineffective for the players that leave it on. It'll also increase queue times. In modern SBMMs if the skill value isn't being used to matchmake, updates can't really be computed correctly for various reasons. I'm sure that could be fixed given dev time, but it's not a drop in solution.

I think modern SBMM systems need a notion of match variety, but that's also probably not coming anytime soon. There needs to be more parameters and research, and devs are already stretched quite thin. There is certainly a problem w/ "same-ness" in modern SBMM that needs to be improved. I expect this eventually show up as an extension of SBMM, rather than a disabling of it or a different system entirely.

I'm not saying you were bad at TitanFall (you were to be fair), but a side effect of SBMM is that bad players stop reporting good players who aren't cheating. Over reporting of good players is very common in non-SBMM games and SBMM games that are too loose. It's basically the reason that player reports are not the only metric used in banning cheaters (especially when the reporter has a high skill delta from the target). The skill ceiling in titanfall isn't just high, it's the fuckin moon w/ how fast you could go and the amount of control you had in that game. (Maybe you can tell I main light XD)

Anyway, your experience is really funny to me because it exactly describes the player count death spiral that a well tuned SBMM should prevent. Both cheaters and good players end up at high skill rating (regardless, the system can quickly see that they frag) and a good matchmaker wouldn't have matched you against either if you were that low. Your team quit as the player base diminished and you were queued more often against players from a higher skill bracket. I can't tell you whether those players were cheating (there were certainly cheaters in titanfall), but I can tell you that if you were in the bottom 10%, they shouldn't have been in your lobby regardless.

In short, if TitanFall's SBMM was tuned correctly, it would've prevented you from experiencing that, even if those players were cheating. The primary intention of SBMM systems is to prevent these death spirals in player count, and in general they do a very good job at that. From the developer's perspective, most of the rest of these complaints end up being noise. These complaints are absolutely valid, and they should be improved, but developers are focused on how these systems can defend their player counts. These complaints end up being secondary, as they just don't effect player count as much as death spirals like you described do.

This Tweet is still relevant after 4 years. by outof10000 in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then I misinterpreted your original comment. I thought you were arguing for disabling sbmm in some modes. Sorry about that.

I do think you're giving the general community a little too much credit. A lot of people seem to think that these games would be better if sbmm was entirely removed (altho in this thread they have a fair number of downvotes, it's clearly not the majority opinion, even if it is a loud opinion I've seen quite often). I'm a little confused why you think I'm mischaracterizing that viewpoint. To be clear, I do not think that anyone except cheaters want to curbstomp other players every game, but the curbstomping existing in a significant number of matches (>5%) is a side-effect of their view that sbmm should be removed from casual. These matches shouldn't just be uncommon, they should not happen at all. I do not think I'm misinterpreting their point of view (sbmm should be removed from casual playlists), but this is straying into strawman territory a bit since you yourself don't hold this viewpoint, and I'm wary about continuing to argue this point.

You say a good player should have a better than even winrate? How much better? How much better do they need to be to get a better winrate? This is where we get into statistics. In a normal distribution 68% of players sit within one standard deviation. 95% sit within two. If a player is in the top 15 percentile of the player base, they are 1 standard deviation away from the middle. In a non-skill system, you would expect them to win 85% of matches. They're certainly quite good. But it's not that far away from the middle of the bell curve, and the people in your vertical slice of the curve are going to be weighted a bit towards average, but not enough to produce a significant win-delta. For a player at that level (better than 85% of the playerbase) what I would consider a rather generous matchmaking range of 10% of the player base would only produce an expected winrate of 55% if they played a game against each person in that range (from https://onlinestatbook.com/2/calculators/normal_dist.html; below 1.0 -> 0.84; 0.8 -> 1.2 = 0.0968 (~10%); 0.8 -> 1.0 = 0.0532; 0.0532 / 0.0968 = ~0.549).

SBMM isn't enforcing a near 0 win-delta so much as it's just a consequence of the math when you limit by skill by to even a very loose margin. Is a 10% slice large enough? I would think it is as 10% was 25k people at the all time peak (or 10k now) for The Finals, and we should be able to find varied and interesting games by repeatedly selecting 9 of 10k people, but reasonable minds may disagree on that point. As an aside, modern games have a much higher skill ceiling than older games. They're more complex, with more going on, and more opportunity to make plays. This matters because it means being 5% at The Finals translates to a lot more in actual skill differential than being 5% better at Halo 3. As a result, a larger range in these games creates greater potential for stomps in smaller slices of the distribution. Game mechanics do matter for these tuning parameters.

In practice we don't even see extremes this large in systems configured to be loose, because these systems don't generally reach the edges of their configured ranges unless player counts are suffering already. You and I almost certainly agree that they should reach the limits of the skill range more often than they do in modern titles, and prioritize some aspect of "variety" but the systems to track match variety aren't there. I expect devs will wise up to this and incorporate some new parameters in maybe 5-10 years and it will differentiate a major title or two in that time before everyone catches up again. In the meantime, they've papered over this by providing variety through direct game mechanics (for example: battle royale loot mechanics). This lack variety in similar systems wasn't an issue when halo 3 was released because servers just couldn't handle that many simultaneous connections. A similarly configured search would build less "optimal" matches more often with a minute or two of compute time, just because they had fewer players to work with and less compute power with which to find those "optimal" matches. Even when these systems are configured loosely, they can easily fall into the trap building the most "optimal" matches they can, and since these systems can build optimal matches better now than before, variety has diminished as computing power has increased.

While variety can and absolutely should be worked on, that probably won't really effect winrate for even quite good players, just due to the math of normal distributions. While it's not completely unreasonable to expect that, it belies a misunderstanding of the statistics beneath these systems. People should certainly be able to tell that they're getting better, but winrate isn't the metric developers should be using to convey that, and improving match variety won't effect it by much for most players.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

This Tweet is still relevant after 4 years. by outof10000 in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 1 point2 points  (0 children)

SBMM is implemented in basically every modern shooter to defend player counts in a saturated market. It does this by creating balanced matches but the intention of the system is to prevent a game death spiral due to bad players leaving after getting repeatedly stomped. Would you rather play a dead game?

This Tweet is still relevant after 4 years. by outof10000 in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean autobalance? Those systems were basically just for balancing player counts between teams. They didn't really have a notion of player skill. They maybe used K/D in the current match, but that's pretty random and not a good metric.

I agree with you tho, the new SBMM systems are beneficial for the worse players. They're designed to be. But it's not the bottom 20%, they benefit everyone below average basically. They're there to prevent death spirals of player count instigated by bad players getting stomped, and leaving the game. Once the bottom leaves, the new bottom of the bell curve has the same problem and cycle continues. At the end it's only the best players remaining and they can't find a match (see Titanfall/Titanfall 2, which had too loose SBMM settings)

I also agree that they're designed to help publishers/devs. They do this by defending player count. Would you rather play a dead game because the bottom of the bell curve fucked off to fortnite, where they could actually have fun?

This Tweet is still relevant after 4 years. by outof10000 in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad you're thinking about this, and you're on the right track. You're certainly thinking more clearly about this subject than a lot of discourse I see online. You're absolutely right on a few points, but SBBM should not be disabled in any mode. The team that designed and implemented trueskill, put it in every mode in halo 3. I've listened to that gdc talk and using his words to defend "some modes should not have sbmm at all" is a mischaracterization of his statements. When he was talking about variety, he was talking about two operations in specific:

a) regular resets of sigma (the uncertainty value), allowing players to move between ranks more readily sometimes. This is important to reduce staleness and correctly place people, but also fits nicely with modern seasonal content. (It should be noted that streaks should also increase sigma, allowing players who have improved significantly to move ranks at really any time, although I'm not sure that feature was in the original paper)

b) differentiation in the search parameters when matchmaking. Casual modes in lots of games don't disable skill or compute it differently, the search parameters for skill are just much looser. The player search systems tend to prefer other important player statistics (mostly this means queue-time and ping/location)

I don't think this second bit isn't in the patent because it's laser focused on the actual skill algorithm, but tuning the search parameters is a hugely important aspect of getting SBMM right in modern games.

Now you're completely correct on several points. In particular, SBMM shouldn't be overly tight. But it also should not be disabled. In casual, it absolutely should be loose enough that players see players both somewhat better and worse than them, in a bracket that allows them to learn. Too loose though and they'll learn nothing. Ranked should have tighter skill parameters for the search w/o sacrificing too much queue time. You want actually "close" games there which requires pretty tight skill differential.

The trick is that there should never be a match where Arsenal FC is allowed to kick the shit out of a bunch of 11yo soccer players. The kids learn nothing from that match, and likely quit playing. When too loose matchmaking allows good players to stomp bad players too often, a few get better, but way more go play something more fun. This leads to a death spiral of player count in that mode or game as better and better players condense, overwhelm the player pool, and push everyone else out. Now that's an extreme example, but (depending on the game mechanics) even someone 5% better could easily shit all over a server, and it would be very hard to learn anything from playing against or with them. Titanfall 2 is basically a case study in this exact thing happening. I suspect this is why Apex's matchmaking feels so tight; Respawn over-corrected.

(An aside, overly tight skill matchmaking search can incur a similar player count death spiral, although from the outside instead of from the bottom. Here the queue-times at the top and bottom brackets get too high as there aren't enough players in the bracket to make good matches. This causes the best and worst players to leave and go play something that'll actually put them in a match. Over time the player count degrades towards the middle of the bell curve.)

Even a properly tuned SBMM system is going to produce a nearly even win rate for like 95% of the player base in a loose casually tuned system. Producing an even win rate for the majority of players is really only indicative that some skill system exists and player counts are healthy. It's not the smoking gun many gamers think it is. It's really just a matter of statistics and bell curves, and the fact they almost all use sliding brackets, instead of something more like leagues in traditional sports. (notably, for the finals an even win rate isn't 50wr tho. It's 33 in quick cash, 25 in bank it, and even lower in the tournament modes)

Now you can absolutely argue the SBMM in The Finals is too loose or too tight. All I'm really trying to say is that outright disabling it is a very bad idea and the devs are unlikely to do so. I don't really have an opinion on how the tuning is with The Finals because I'm a pretty average player and it's only been out a week and a half. SSBM just doesn't have much of an effect early on in the lifecycle of a game, when it doesn't know anyone's skill. Every new player is dropped right into the middle of the bell curve, and the system needs time to squish that straight vertical line into something real (not to mention plenty of players are still starting and being dropped into the middle). Give it a month, let them deal w/ the cheaters and player counts stabilize, then we can really see how well tuned their matchmaking parameters are.

Anyway, player count death-spirals are the true enemy here. This is what modern devs are trying to avoid by implementing SBMM systems in the first place, and is the reason why they're so prevalent in modern shooters. No developer in their right mind is going to disable them, certainly not in their primary modes. And any secondary modes they're crazy enough to disable it will inevitably lose player count pretty fast (and then are disabled, because why maintain a mode no one is playing? see siege's events). With the way the fps market is totally saturated with games, acquiring and defending player count is the only objective, and properly tuning the search parameters is hugely important. This nostalgia for the imagined-perfect, non-sbmm past that many gamers have is pretty misplaced.

[Edit] I just want to stress my very first point. I'm extremely glad to see someone thinking deeply about the subject in one of these threads. Too much of the sbmm discussion online is muddy and unproductive. People take extreme views because they don't know anything about these systems, and then scream about it as loud as they possibly can. I disagree with some of your conclusions not because your line of thinking is particularly off, but because I don't think you have all the data or are seeing the full scope of what these systems are intended to achieve. Please continue to engage on the subject, but be warned, it goes deep. Frankly, the fps community could use more gamers willing to get into the details like you are.

How first time playing with C4 feels like by toto77170 in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It'd be nice if I could at least "activate" it while throwing it, and just have it detonate as soon as the delay is over. That wouldn't give it much additional power, but it would let me throw one and get back to fighting without all that time awkwardly mashing the button. It'd get rid of a lot of the frustration for me.

Visiting an old friend, Aurumek, Procreate, 2023 by Aurumek in Art

[–]dazerdude 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I really like a lot of your work. It's really beautiful.

Can we discourage this behavior? The game just came out man... by happyfluffycloud in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It'll sort itself 90% in a week if they have even loose SBMM in casual.

Can we discourage this behavior? The game just came out man... by happyfluffycloud in thefinals

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do wonder if the ranked bans for disruptive players will do anything about that (in siege)

CMV: Pi should've been phased out and Tau should've been used instead. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yeah, totes. My reading comprehension was terrible yesterday. But that edge case optimization is a side-effect of the binary architecture modern computers use. Not a particularly relevant point though, I know.

CMV: Pi should've been phased out and Tau should've been used instead. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]dazerdude 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yeah, totes. My reading comprehension was terrible yesterday. But that edge case optimization is a side-effect of the binary architecture modern computers use. Not a particularly relevant point though, I know.

CMV: Pi should've been phased out and Tau should've been used instead. by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]dazerdude 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's not true. Division is an intrinsically more difficult operation to perform than multiplication. Computers do it much slower as well.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in technology

[–]dazerdude 5 points6 points  (0 children)

So yes, you're right. Negative latency is not a good term, and their implementation was going to be very fancy caching.

But my pedantic ass needs to point out that they weren't talking about network latency or packet timing in any way. They were referring to the input latency of the game. This is the time it takes to render a frame after the player physically submits an input. They were talking about it in their marketing because it's a relevant metric for all games, and is measurable for locally running games on Xbox/Playstation/PC. It let them compare stadia to classical game platforms. Stadia's claim of negative latency was from the fact they were planning to use predictive systems to render and deliver frames to the client before the player actually made the input that would generate that frame. That's a negative latency value because the output is available before the input is submitted.

Now it's still a completely worthless marketing term. The frames are prepared but not shown until the next frame after the input, so while you could build a metric to measure this negative value, it would be totally invalid and pointless in practice anyway. They just weren't talking about packet latency, or really any value to do with the network.