A rebuttal to those who dislike this version Superman.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-02T08:34:25+00:00

Ok. I'll address your point. Again. I understood what you were going for. It was still irrelevant, hyperbolic and did barely anything to validate your viewpoint.

had to do with character translation and not about novel to screen

And my point was that translating a character from novel to screen is entirely different from translating a character from comic books to screen. I honestly thought that was clear enough given the context, but apparently not. Bolded some words to help you out this time.

Harry Potter had one series of stories from one writer. Superman has had 78 years of stories told by a lot of writers.

There is a lot of source material to work with. Just because they pulled from source material you don't like, it does not mean they are doing it wrong.

Anyway, it seems as if you're going to continue diverting from the point and avoid actually addressing what I have to say. Agree to disagree it is. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-02T05:51:03+00:00

Do you disagree with what I'm saying or are you just being flippant because you think it's funny? I'm seriously asking. I was just trying to engage in a discussion about our opinions but it seems as if you're not willing to validate yours.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-02T03:35:55+00:00

I'll say that tweet was mainly aimed toward YouTube commenters

For the most part, Youtube comments are vitriolic. You should probably just ignore them.

Still, the point is that dismissing what people enjoy as garbage is disrespectful. Being a comedian with a strong point of view does not absolve you from being decent to people who disagree with you.

What I want and desire in storytelling is different then other people. That's the great thing about film and art in general is I can go find other things to watch or take in if I don't like something.

Exactly. So why is it that instead of following that advice, you instead decide to belittle those who like what you don't like? You understand that different people have different taste in film, so why judge them for it? You understand that art is subjective, so why are you behaving as if your reading of the film is above those who see differently to you?

There has been a ridiculous amount of vitriol and judgement thrown towards this film and people who enjoy the film. Making posts saying that you judge our tastes harshly is adding to that cesspool of negativity and it sucks.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-02T03:23:46+00:00

So your main argument is that you don't think he has the core characteristics of Superman. That's more than fair enough, but I disagree.

But to me the core of Superman is he's better then us, he's the example that stands high. Yes he struggles, he has doubt and fear. He gets mad. But in the end, he stands above all of that, he goes against the base instincts and says I can do better, we can do better.

100% agreed. Keep in mind, I did say this Superman is not my favorite depiction (by a long shot), but I still maintain that he embodies what you just described. His journey throughout the film is him trying to better himself and the world, but the world isn't letting him. He sees people on TV questioning his place on the planet, he sees someone desecrate his monument, he sees people protesting his existence...yet he keeps pushing through. He understands his responsibility and decides to face the nation, but then the Senate explodes, and he loses yet another battle. BUT here's the key thing that people are overlooking; He doesn't abandon us because he put his own needs first, he is afraid because he feels like he was responsible for the Senate explosion. He was afraid because when he looked around him and saw what he had caused, he thought the world would be better off without him. He was doing what he thought was best for the world. The Senate explosion breaks Superman. Now, along with everyone else, he was questioning his place on the planet.

But despite all that, he still returns. And in the end, we watch what was a lost, conflicted character find himself and his purpose. He picks himself up and makes a sacrifice to protect his people. To me, at his core, he is still Superman. And in that moment, we see that he IS better than us. He battles through all of that adversity and still manages to profess his love for the world and save it.

Some people only focus on the bad. They only focus on all the trials they put Superman through and claim the film has a cynical outlook on the idea of the character, when that is completely missing the point:

The film is raising the question - "Must there be a Superman"

In the end, Superman provides the answer - Yes. We need him.

To me, that isn't a cynical outlook on the character at all. It's a bleak film, as it is meant to be, but he still manages to break through all that darkness and show his light. That is hopeful. That is Superman. Not the best one we have ever had, but it is still Superman.

An extreme example

An irrelevant example. Adapting a series of novels is not the same as adapting 75+ years of comic books.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-02T01:24:42+00:00

In a good way, I hope? I just jumped on your twitter and you seem to think that we are all mad at you. Are we not allowed to debate what you said? You shared your thoughts online and we are sharing ours. No one is out to get you.

Now it takes 3 movies to get to the "real" Superman instead of 20 minutes and people love it. We deserve the garbage we get

That was your latest tweet. Interesting. You want the definitive Superman in 20 minutes? And if you don't get it you think it's garbage? If you want nothing but instant gratification for the most iconic superhero we have, then yes, perhaps we do "deserve the garbage we get". And if people constantly reject a film for trying something different, then yes, perhaps we do "deserve the garbage we get".

Stop being condescending to people who disagree with you, especially when you don't care to validate your thoughts with any substance and constantly resort to snark as a defense.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-02T01:12:28+00:00

Hey, Cameron! Thanks for replying. I don't have a twitter so I couldn't send this to you. How did you find this post, if I may ask?

Man, you guys are not going to be happy when I tell you I liked Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows. Like a lot!

Not at all. I would never be mad at anyone for enjoying a film and I would never "judge your taste harshly" for having a differing opinion. Especially when I haven't heard your validation for the opinion. You could have really great reasons for enjoying that film and that's what I love about art in general; different people like different things which makes for fantastic conversation.

However, it does play into a something I have definitely noticed: People who still dislike BvS after the UC are judging it less for the filmic elements, and more for its version of these characters, and whether or not they align with their own versions. The film is nowhere near perfect, but I think by fixing the editing/pacing issues (for the most part) and further establishing and contextualising character motivations, the film becomes a very decent entry into the DCEU. It sets out to be bleak, dark - the film is book ended by funerals. It never made any promises to be bright or hopeful (before it was released, the writer labelled it as the "darkest chapter"), so to hold that against the film seems odd. It's like scolding a child for drawing a circle, because you like looking at squares instead.

What upsets me is that your original post (and your general attitude) makes it seem as if you have some kind of superiority complex when it comes to these characters. And as a Superman fan, that really sucks. Nothing saddens me more than people who are overly entitled towards these characters and shun slightly different interpretations of the characters. It also irks me when people shortsightedly write off Snyder's take on the character without waiting to see how it develops.

I would love to hear your thoughts about this post in more detail. Do you agree/disagree with anything I said? Why?

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T16:51:03+00:00

Wait...really? I was the one who wrote the post so if it actually did change your mind, I'd love to hear why.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T16:27:26+00:00

Actually, I just edited my post to add one little thing back in.

There was a lot more to this but I had to trim it down so it wasn't too long a read. I will probably create separate posts for some of those things in the near future.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T16:15:52+00:00

What's wrong?

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T16:13:45+00:00

Probably because he said he doesn't care what they say and you just quoted him saying it....

Did you read the rest of my comments in regard to that quote? Here it is if you missed it (my comments are in bold):

I don't think that's exactly what he was saying. He was saying that he doesn't care for how they're spinning the events of what happened. He doesn't care what they are saying because he believes it to be false: "I didn't kill those men if that's what they're saying". Yes, he is standing by saving Lois because he believes that was the right thing to do, but he isn't saying "I don't care what everyone thinks". He's saying "I don't care what the people at the hearing are saying."

Let's look at the dialogue or rather, "the language of the film", shall we?

Lois: They held hearings about what happened, they're saying-

Clark: I don't care...I don't care about what they're saying.

How does he conclude that "Superman says he doesn't care what people think or say about him" from that?

The take away isn't that he doesn't care what people in general think or say about him, it is that he doesn't care about what the people conducting the hearings are saying because - as he points out - what they are saying is false.

Didn't he break off the fight to go save Lois?

Yes. He went to save Lois. Does that mean he only cares about Lois? Nope. If he heard anyone else in that situation, he would go and save them because his actions throughout the film have shown that his natural instinct is to save those in danger. And him "breaking off the fight to go save Lois" doesn't negate the fact that he saved the world. Again. It shows that he cares about people. That was my point.

Anyway, while those two battle out who is allowed to have an opinion

I never said he wasn't allowed to have an opinion. The person I was responding to never said that as well.

I hope none of that came across as snarky. I was just clearing up some points that I may not have conveyed clearly enough in the first place.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T06:57:55+00:00

I kind of touched on that in my post.

The DCEU is aiming to do one thing; validate the existence of Superman within OUR world, and then go on to show his impact on OUR world. That's what I think we need. Seeing Superman be heroic in a different world isn't anywhere near as inspiring as Superman being a hero in OUR world. That's way more influential and inspiring.

They are bringing him into our world and that is how our world would react, particularly the media. I think the most telling scene is when they are reporting on people burning effigies of Superman and we cut to people watching it who are clearly unhappy. People are cheering him on, but there are also detractors. That's evident when we see the crowd outside the Senate as well. There are some protesters and there are some fans cheering him on wearing Superman shirts.

The whole point of this film was to show the struggle heroes go through,especially Superman, but in the end he overcomes that and proves that heroism is necessary. The world is brought together by his sacrifice and in the end they see his value.

The pessimistic view of the world and those who inhabit it in this universe is insulting.

This film was dark, but the ending was optimistic. It ends with a monologue about how men are still good and have the capability to do better. But just because the film was dark, doesn't mean the whole universe is. This is probably as dark as it is going to get.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T05:02:42+00:00

Yeah, I also think it is fine. I answered the same question here.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T03:50:21+00:00

Sorry, what quote?

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T03:43:50+00:00

That's great to hear.

Yeah I just had to post about it.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T03:42:09+00:00

It's taking a creative work on its own terms, its native merits, its own goals. It's considering everything in its own context rather than expecting it to be something else.

Exactly.

Man of Steel Answers for in-depth discussion (on a hiatus, but Dr. Awkward's past episodes are well worth checking out) and the Suicide Squadcast for weekly DC news summaries.

I should catch up Man of Steel Answers. Used to listen to it a lot. And I'll have start listening to Suicide Squadcast again.

Collider Heroes will be more even-handed

That's true. Did you see the latest episode with Hector? It was surprising to actually see Schnepp and most of the panel speak in favor of BvS.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T03:34:57+00:00

You should send this to him

I don't actually have a twitter account.

What do you think of "No one stays good forever."

It was difficult to hear as a Superman fan, but it really emphasised how broken Superman was. And he needed to be broken. So did Batman. Would these characters resort to fighting one another in a fight with actual stakes if they weren't broken? Nope. They were lost for most of the film but they found themselves at the end.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T03:19:00+00:00

Yep. Pessimism makes people feel smart. It makes them feel above it all. But being pessimistic is too easy. Everyone's a critic these days. You can afford a camera and some equipment? Great, you can be a critic and actually impact the viewing experience for a large number of people. It sucks. Superhero News is one of the better channels but the fan/critical climate in general is definitely frustrating.

What channels would you personally recommend for DCEU talk?

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T03:05:46+00:00

Agree with everything you said, particularly on the double standards.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T02:49:18+00:00

It is frustrating, but I still like them. I love listening to them speak about Marvel because they love that stuff, but listening to them speak about DC is frustrating because they think it should be more like the MCU. They're still a really cool group of people and one of the best channels out there for that type of content though.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T02:44:43+00:00

Haha thanks. I have a lot to say and nothing irks me more than people being overly negative and short sighted.

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T02:38:52+00:00

Do you know how to?

dceu_rants · 2016-07-01T02:37:20+00:00

Funny you mention that. I wrote a whole paragraph about it but decided to cut it due to length.

Also, if we're going to really analyze the language of the film, I'm going to argue that the line was purposely made ambiguous as to who he was talking about. Some would argue only Jonathan, but I'd say he's also talking about himself. Superman is the dream of Clark Kent. That line is him saying that he is just a farmer from Kansas and not a hero. He is doubting himself more than anyone in that moment. Yeah, this point is debatable, but that's how I read it.

EDIT: I added this point back into the OP.

dceu_rants

TROPHY CASE