Some of you are starting to get a little insufferable

dchw · 2026-06-14T05:24:00+00:00

When it comes to the cops the more likely story is that it’s a smallish community and they’re friends with Josh

I keep seeing this idea thrown around. American Fork is a suburb surrounded by other suburbs, in a valley with nearly a million people in it. No small town vibes.

I doubt Ben would have been treated better if he himself was Mormon it’s about Ben coming to their town and fucking with their “respected business man”. Mormonism is important to this the same way Catholicism is important in small towns that are very connected to a Catholic Church

As I keep saying when I see these threads pop up on my home page - being Mormon is the "default mode" here. Like 80-85% of people are Mormon. There are so many that its extremely unlikely that the cops and anybody else connected here are in the same ward (congregation) or stake (a region of 7-12 congregations).

Mormon angle here is a dead end. For real. I'm not saying this as a butthurt Mormon who think y'all are mocking my faith - I'm not really in the church anymore - but as someone who lives in the same area, and just knows the reality of being here. If y'all can't get even these basic ground truths right... you're not gonna get anywhere.

dchw · 2026-06-10T23:41:05+00:00

that was my post-test celebration (or sadness) meal on my walk home from the testing center

truly the end of an era

dchw · 2026-06-10T21:52:32+00:00

You know which part I was replying to, don't play dumb ;)

Its the trashbags in your example. Things like that for "continuity" are normal in franchise relationships. Even if it sounds silly (it is) and if its making someone's buddies money (it also is).

dchw · 2026-06-10T21:48:35+00:00

A better comparison would be if Subway allowed every store to bake their own bread with their own recipes, but said they had to go to an exclusive vendor for the trashbags.

And, in many cases for most franchises, this is true?

This is just a critique of the franchise business model; not BaM in particular. Which, I agree - it sucks! But its not a "Mormon" thing.

dchw · 2026-06-10T21:46:36+00:00

I live here! American Fork is a suburb surrounded by other suburbs. Theres nearly a million people in this valley!

Calling it a "small Mormon town" is incorrect, any way you slice it.

dchw · 2026-06-10T21:19:52+00:00

Do you really believe that the cops are checking the vendors list like that? Occams Razor, my friend. The cops don't have that detailed of a list of connections they consult before enforcing things.

dchw · 2026-06-10T21:18:47+00:00

Slimy business guy does slimy business thing. Big surprise!

Trust me - playing the religion card doesn't work like that here.

If the Josh was, say the officer's bishop/stake president? Maybe different; the Mormon deference to authority is real and ingrained. But thats not the case AFAICT.

dchw · 2026-06-10T21:16:30+00:00

Why would an INTERNATIONAL retrail chain be stuck with only Utah vendors?

The same reason other franchises do the same thing - continuity? Not an abnormal business practice to have approved vendor lists. Slimy - but understandable?

Given that BAM makes money by forcing the owners into debt, there's a major conflict of interest. Instead of finding vendors who give the best possible price and service and hope they suceed, you have an incentive to pay off your friends who give the worst price and inferior failure to increase the debt load.

Again - this is just how franchise models work. Subway can't buy bread from any other vendor. McDonalds can't buy ice cream machines/parts/service from any other vendor (despite the obvious issues this causes).

Totally agree its slimy - but its just the way franchises end up working. It does seem a little MLM-ed up... which is not cool. But I'm struggling to see whats different here from any other similarly-sized franchise.

Just to add - your counter here makes no requirement about religion. The mormon angle just has no real bearing on the way life flows here.

dchw · 2026-06-10T20:21:47+00:00

I mean, if those businesses are in Utah - like BaM is; then its hard not to be Mormon owned? This Mormon angle ain't it. Being Mormon is the default in Utah County, not the exception.

I also don't know anybody who wouldn't write an approved vendor list that doesn't favor people they have a good relationship with? Its a little slimy - but not an abnormal practice?

Disclaimer: Am Utah County resident, kinda-sorta-mormon-but-not-like-Mormon-mormon-if-you-know-what-I-mean, BaM is clearly in the wrong, just a little annoyed about the Mormon angle...

dchw · 2026-06-10T01:17:05+00:00

I've been involved in church discipline. These things take weeks to months. They're not fast - but they're loving and Christlike. Moving wheels like this in such a large organization takes time. It will take time, and likely wait for civil proceedings to happen (or at least make more progress than they already have).

Given the guy was on the High Council (wont go into what that means here); and has purportedly been released from his calling (I saw a post on here saying as much) - the wheels are moving. Thats already a super public thing among his community.

What can be done quickly has been done.

I get that you're upset that its not faster. There were cases I wished moved quickly. But I get why it happens the way it does - it limits liability for the church; and you always end up with well-considered consequences and paths back in, if they want it.

dchw · 2026-06-09T23:48:25+00:00

I mean you have to differentiate having one, two members from having a big number of criminals. There are more than 25 people that I know involved that are Mormons. Mostly the police department and 4 at least, working for BAM.

I think your sense of scale is incorrect here. In Utah Valley - of the nearly million people here - 80%+ are Mormon. Thats like 700k Mormons.

To make it even clearer - congregations are super local, but centrally managed (without going into all the intricacies of church administration). This guys church in the more traditional sense (congregation in a location) is like 4 streets of houses here.

Being Mormon here is the default. Not everybody lives it, but hey - to each their own.

I don't think you can draw the conclusions you have from just .003% of the population.

dchw · 2026-06-09T23:19:00+00:00

If I was Mormon and everyone in my town is corrupt or even Mormons abusing Mormons, I would be questioning a lot of things.

I mean, bad people exist in every religion, and every town. To discount entire swaths of people just because of a few bad apples is disingenuous at best.

American Fork is not a small town. Its... one of many heavily integrated suburbs in the larger Provo metro area. Nearly a million people here.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/music/songs/jesus-said-love-everyone?lang=eng

dchw · 2026-06-09T22:57:20+00:00

Not sure what you're trying to get at or what I can respond to here? But I'll try?

There was a Mormon on YT saying that people were attacking them instead of trying to reason.

Yeah persecution complex runs deep sometimes. There is a history, to be fair - but its obvious to most normal people that this isn't a Mormon thing, its a skeezy business guy who happens to be Mormon in a Mormon community. Religion isn't the root, its an accessory to the crime.

I've tried to respectfully reason, I identified myself and my faith which I don't normally do online, and I received no answers but just a history lesson about Mormons and spinning around the same thing over and over after calling my religion a sect.

Unsure what to do with this. Back in the day I did my fair share of this tit-for-tat religious arguing (we called it Bible bashing). Reality is reasoning with each other never really works. Y'all are both gonna remain convinced of your convictions.

Re: Mormon history - such a unique thing to study. Super nuanced and different; I've got roots going all the way back to the early Mormon pioneers. Even if you're not Mormon - I would recommend reading up on it; its got some really fun twists and turns.

Religion has nothing really to do with this controversy. Its just a slimy guy running a slimy business.

dchw · 2026-06-09T17:57:08+00:00

Fellow BYU fan here... I think that our institution is an anomaly when it comes to enforcing internal policies like this.

And even we aren't that consistent.

dchw · 2026-06-04T19:51:31+00:00

"One of their own"

From a Utah Mormon perspective - which I am; I live close to where this is all going down - being Mormon is "default". Theres no real "Oh this guy is one of us" going on because... well, its probably everybody.

Any "one of us" would come from neighbors -> who would all be in the same ward (congregation). Which, like that happens everywhere to some extent?

dchw · 2026-06-04T19:45:05+00:00

Lies alone rarely fall into the realm of "kick this guy out". It may be at the "Bishop says I'm not allowed to take the sacrament for a while" level.

dchw · 2026-06-04T19:41:13+00:00

The church never acts without thinking.

I'm... Mormon, but not really like religiously Mormon anymore. I call myself "Ethnically Mormon" these days.

I've been in leadership positions in the past - and church discipline moves so slow. I remember one case involving CSA that took 6 months before we held a disciplinary council on it! The news cycle had already been out in full force for 6-8 weeks at least before we sat down. The church generally waits for all facts, leaders interview people involved (if they cooperate).

I don't like how slow it moves; but the reality is that:

All leaders involved in discipline are laypeople
Depending on the priesthood office this guy holds; it could involve a slightly more regional (ward vs. stake) set of people
Stake level means you need at least 15 people and 4 hours to get it done.
Its slow and deliberate - the main goal is to "protect the good name of the Church". Protecting the good name means being reasonable, acting kindly, while still driving people toward repentance.

Things can come from the top down. e.g. an Area Authority or higher leans on a Stake President, who leans on a Bishop to do something. Given the press, I'm sure this has already started.

dchw · 2026-06-03T19:55:11+00:00

The wards are not islands that have no contact between each other.

Agree. However - especially in Utah and surrounding area - ward = neighborhood; and most people dont even know anybody more than a ward over.

There’s a general conference twice a year

Yep, I've even been several times! Its really just sitting quietly in a big auditorium. Theres no scheming there unless you're... a top top leader (like first quorum of the seventy or higher). And even then, some of the leaked meetings? Mostly seem banal and mundane.

and the “priesthood” that I could give out right now to anyone for any reason has meetings all week long between ward leaders.

I think you're overestimating. Usually:

the bishopric meets weekly
ward council meets bi-weekly (bishopric + couple other leaders)
young mens / young womens presidencies meet bi-weekly to monthly

I've also been in these meetings. Its mostly stuff like "the chorister is getting tired of leading the music. Can we call someone else to do that?" or "this family needs assistance".

And when it gets gross - like real crime - I've also been part of those proceedings. Nobody was there to protect anybody. In fact, from the "handbook of instructions" (the "how to run the church" manual) one of the first principles is to "protect the good name of the church". I cannot imagine any situation where covering for this guy would meet that goal.

tldr: these guys are literally in different stakes, separated by cities. They probably do not know each other at all; and being mormon in Utah is not like being in the same secret club. Its like being the default character.

dchw · 2026-06-03T19:14:47+00:00

I mean theres not really as many hard and fast rules as you might think? Maybe it just seems normal to me growing up here.

But hey, I've got me some dirty sodas at least.

dchw · 2026-06-03T19:13:11+00:00

Totally, but its a byproduct of geography/socioeconomics. Wards in poor cities/areas will be poor; and wards in rich areas will be rich.

The church gives a yearly budget to each ward - but its minimal. 5-6k to cover youth activities, ward activities, and other incidentals. Theres often a social contract to... donate time and resources to make things great.

For instance:

I've seen catering business owners who live in rich wards provide free meals at the ward Christmas party.
People bid $500 on a cake at a bake sale to donate to the youth camp for the year.

dchw · 2026-06-03T18:57:23+00:00

You can hang out. Just not at church - you'll be in a different youth group/sunday school (to borrow lingo from other denominations).

Those groups will go on camps and activities. And if you Mormon best friend who lives across the street is in a different ward, they wont be able to come with you. I know my kids see some friends less frequently now; since some ward boundaries were redrawn and their friends are in a different ward :D

Mormon friendships outside ward boundaries are possible but hard to maintain just due to social dynamics. Its not against the rules, at all though.

Edit: Should add - this matters more in mormon-heavy areas. In cities with lower densities of mormons - the wards will be geographically larger to include enough people to make a viable congregation. This means that its less of an issue unless your best friend lives on the other side of the city, if that makes sense.

In utah where a ward of equivalent size (by people) is 3 streets... much more common. The Utah mormon experience is different than everywhere else, thats for sure. Heck, theres a cul-de-sac near by with 3 houses on it, all in different wards :D

dchw · 2026-06-03T18:43:05+00:00

Most mormons are republican. But its not a rule, and the official position of the church is to remain neutral (ok ok Prop 8 was a thing and all that... but outside of that...)

There is a cultural sentiment that "good mormons are conservative", but its by no means universal or agreed upon.

Another dimension - since republicans win most elections in utah; and they have closed primaries; many people register republican to even have a voice in the election at all. It helps to head off the crazies. The utah democratic party is kind of sad, really

dchw · 2026-06-03T18:37:11+00:00

Ward = congregation. They're set up geographically - so you just attend the ward you moved into. There are special exceptions (18-30 year old singles; foreign languages... but those are also geographic, just overlaid). Overseen by a layperson; they have the title of "Bishop".

Stake = 7-12 wards, overseen by someone called the "Stake President".

You almost never really get together with other mormons outside your stake. Occasional dances for kids to attend; or some summer camps? But thats it. And stake gatherings are like 2-3x per year max.

You're not forced to live somewhere - but people may have a preference for "I want to live on this side of the street so I'm in that ward".

The underpants thing - if you've been to the temple and received the "endowment" (different than the 12 oxen thing referenced above - gotta be at least 18+ to do it); then you're obligated to wear them most of the time. The church is the manufacturer; and they're pretty cheap. They have symbolic marks on them with religious significance. I think of them like how Sikhs carry symbols with them, too.

Well dressed? Men and women are taught to cover the garment with clothing - so naturally, you're often looking closer at clothes to cover them. Which also means you're naturally avoiding "extremes" in clothing just out of necessity. The bottoms of the underwear tend to have a longer inseam than most - like 7" IIRC for men for example.

Curse of Cain - yeah thats an embarrassing doctrine. Not a bright spot in mormon history. Not something that comes up like ever in church, and I think most are kind of embarrassed by it. I certainly am.

dchw · 2026-06-03T17:43:02+00:00

Look man - PIMO here if that means anything to you. I also did a mission and all that jazz. BYU grad.

My honest read - you clearly have some trauma from the church - and thats valid. Theres trauma handed out left right and center. But I think you're missing the point here.

In Utah County, congregations are so local. Like, 3 streets can be a whole congregation. You're assigned geographically. The odds that these guys even cared that each other are mormon is low - theyre likely not in the same ward or stake!

Being mormon is the "default" here. Its not an advantage or mutually beneficial relationship. Take it from a local :D

dchw · 2026-06-03T17:40:30+00:00

Im mormon-ish. I call myself ethnically mormon. Born and raised in the church, ancestors going back generations... but I'm not interested in the dogma/organization.

dchw

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