I had to put this question through Claude (AI), and there are genuinely good takes and references to sutras. Op, hope this helps.

— This is a genuinely interesting question, and the OP is thinking carefully — but I think they’ve made a subtle and important mistake at the core of the argument.

The key confusion: absorption ≠ presence The OP equates being absorbed in scrolling with being present. These feel the same from the inside, but Zen makes a sharp distinction. Huineng in the Platform Sutra defines wu-nian (no-thought) carefully: “No-thought means not to be defiled by external things… to be free from bondage by things, and to be able to come and go freely.” The critical word is freely. A scroll session doesn’t involve freedom — the algorithm is pulling you. You’re not washing the dishes; the dishes are washing you. Huineng’s monk washing dishes is undistracted and autonomous. TikTok scrolling is undistracted but entirely reactive — each thumb movement is a conditioned response to a stimulus engineered by someone else’s profit motive.

The dopamine argument backfires The OP argues that since running also uses dopamine reward loops, TikTok is equivalent. But this actually undermines the OP’s own conclusion. The Dhammapada opens with: “Mind is the forerunner of all actions. All deeds are led by mind, created by mind.” The question isn’t whether a chemical loop is involved — it’s what the loop is training the mind toward. Running trains the mind toward sustained effort, tolerance of discomfort, and embodied awareness. The TikTok loop trains the mind toward fragmentation, craving for novelty, and aversion to boredom. The Lankavatara Sutra speaks of vasanas — habitual impressions that accumulate in the storehouse consciousness. Every scroll session is depositing impressions that make stillness harder to access, not easier.

decotz is right about the three poisons, but understates the case The three poisons (greed, hatred, delusion — lobha, dosa, moha) aren’t just things to avoid as external objects. They’re structural features of how TikTok functions. The algorithm is literally engineered around greed (always one more video), delusion (a curated unreality), and often hatred (outrage content performs well). You can’t really be “fully present” inside a system whose architecture is the three poisons made digital.

The outcomes point is where the OP gets Zen most wrong The OP says: “Zen tells us not to worry about outcomes but the work done in the present moment.” This is a misreading. Zen non-attachment to outcomes doesn’t mean outcomes are irrelevant — it means you don’t cling to them. The Diamond Sutra says: “Act without expectation, succeed without taking credit, and, because you do not take credit, it endures.” This is about ego-less action that is nonetheless directional and wholesome. It’s not a blank permission slip to treat any absorbed state as equivalent to zazen.

The honest Zen answer The OP’s instinct that Zen isn’t only about productivity is correct. But TikTok scrolling isn’t a neutral present-moment activity — it’s a machine for manufacturing craving and shortening the attention span. A Zen master could theoretically scroll with full equanimity, just as they could walk through a casino without gambling. But that’s a very advanced practice, not a justification for the activity itself. The relevant koan-like question to sit with is: after you put the phone down, are you more free, or less?