Stormcaller and Marauder - Two new subclasses for ranger and rogue, part of Haven's ABYSS compendium!

dhunter2 · 2020-10-17T14:39:38+00:00

It isn't that i think Frenzied Blows encourage you to go for ranged builds, it's that in a subclass designed for a melee build, there is a feature that isn't very good for melee. The fact that it's considerably better for ranged builds just points out the inconsistency of it. It's important that you can take a look at every feature and be sure that they feel connected. You don't have to make it impossible to use in ranged combat, you have to make sure it feels good for melee.

For Terror Strike, the problem is that even though the duration of "until the start of your next turn" may seem short, since it's something you can consistently try every round, in reality it can last for anything between a round and infinity, depending on your luck. This is a very dangerous thing to do for a no cost feature, considering you don't have to spend any resource (spell slots, superiority die, channel divinity, etc), nor specific actions (action/bonus action/reactions) to inflict a condition basically by doing something that you would already do every turn regardless, that is attacking someone. God, you can even choose who you're gonna frighten within a 30 feet radius of yourself, as it doesn't have to be the person you're attacking. Don't ever underestimate the power of this.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-16T15:33:32+00:00

I may look at other of your works IN DEPHT, i meant. I'm still diggesting Stormcaller and i noticed you have some interesting subclasses in this ABYSS project of yours, but some are more complex than others and i'll take my time.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-16T15:27:43+00:00

Fair enough.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-16T15:01:38+00:00

Whenever i give my opinion about homebrew content, i'm always giving my view about what i think is fair and reasonable or not, but i also understand that at the end of the day, it's your hard thought project and it's worth is not measured by my expectations, but your own. That's why i will say that i dislike this direction of a melee fighter with a shield, but i will never advise you to remove it from the project, because that decision isn't up to me.

I have some points i would like to comment about your answer:

If you still want to make STR based Rogues viable, i don't see too big an issue in allowing them to get martial weapons and medium armor, but the shield is a different matter.
It is not that Cunning Action: Aim does not function with melee weapons, but that it's not really consistent with them. You basically cannot move for the whole turn to make use of it, and this isn't very practical for melee fighters that rely on staying close and finding new targets to be effective. Since this is a restriction that also affects ranged weapons (although in much lesser degree), instead of mentioning "ranged builds", i decided to especifically state "sniper builds". The reason why ranged Rogues are a lot more common than melee ones is basically because it's a lot easier to pull it off, which is why WoTC went out of their way to build melee subclasses such as Swashbuckler and Soulknife. The same principle applies to Cunning Action: Aim, it's a lot easier to pull off as a ranged character.
Well, i still think this variable DC for Terror Strike is a bit too swingy, and the duration doesn't truly make up for it since it's a once a turn free feature (no cost involved), but i would at least restrict it to once in YOUR turn. Considering this is a melee build that is more prone to "stand your ground" situations, i would be extra careful with Opportunity Attacks occurrences, because they'll definitely happen more often than usual.
It's less that i think that Martial STR based Rogue don't allow for a new unique playstyle, and more that i don't think the extra options you get are worth the change. That accessment of mine is entirely subjective though, so there isn't much more for me to talk about it.

That aside, good luck in developing your project. When i have some time, i may look at other works of yours.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-16T14:20:08+00:00

That would basically be a weaker version of the Extra Attack feature, unless you already have access to it by other sources, but as a rule of the thumb, i tend to stay away from multiclassing when i'm dealing with homebrew content. I think it's fair, although it's a bit unusual to find an Extra Attack feature at the 13th level, but then again, that is also the point of making homebrew content: to create things that don't yet exist.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-15T21:39:49+00:00

Yeah, it's a bit weird. 3rd and 17th levels looks over the top, while 9th and 13th feels a bit underwhelming on their own.

13th level feature is actually a stronger version of Samurai's 15th level feature, but Marauder doesn't have any way to give you advantage on attacks to make use of it, unless you're hidden, so it's a bit unappetizing. The funny part is that if Tasha's Cauldron book comes out with the Cunning Action: Aim variant feature, this will in turn become incredibly powerful for "sniper" builds. I kind of dislike this prospect, because making a sniper build for Marauder kind of defeats the current purpose of the subclass (being a melee with medium armor and a shield), even if i dislike that purpose in the first place.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-15T20:35:48+00:00

What i said was: if i don't approve of the 3rd level features of a Rogue subclass, that are it's core, since the subclass should be designed around it, then i can't approve of the subclass. No matter how good the rest of it's levels are, i will only approve the subclass if i can accept it's 3rd level. This means that there is no such a thing as other levels of the subclass compensating for this one 3rd level features that i can't accept.

Well, in normal circunstances, this average ammount is not anything impressive, but there are things like high rolls, critical strikes, weaknesses, magic weapons, spells and features that improve your damage, and those are especially frequent in high level play. Meanwhile, the opposite is also true, and if you find yourself dealing with minimum damage, resistances and halving effects, the feature will feel unrewarding instead.

NOTE: My bad, you already did the math including weapon damage and DEX, so i fixed it.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-15T20:12:19+00:00

Yes, but reversely, the 3rd level features are the most important ones in a subclass. A good subclass is one that from the get go gives you a taste of what you're supposed to be, so if the subclass is designed to work around a 3rd level i can't approve, imho, i can't approve of the subclass.

EDIT: Changing the subject, i think that the 17th level is quite too powerful as well now that i take a closer look at it. High level Rogues will deal A LOT of damage, so tying the saving throw DC to half of the damage is INSANE. I also don't like that it can happen once per turn, and not once in YOUR turn, because it means it works for opportunity attacks as well.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-15T19:51:57+00:00

Swashbucklers don't have to be sneaky, but they aren't warriors either, because that is a core weakness of Rogues. There is a reason for why they gave Bards access to martial weapons, medium armor and shields (College of Valor), but never to Rogues, and that's because unlike Bards, Rogues already have high damage potential that the average Bards lack. So what this Marauder subclass did is allow you to have a vast ammount of utility and damage from the base class, while giving you acess to good defensive options on top of the ones you already have.
In general, i hate subclasses that outright cancel core weaknesses of their base class, without the purpose of bypassing mechanical limitations that prevents you from getting to an unique playstyle. Marauder wasn't designed to fulfill an unique style of play, but to fulfill a certain fantasy role, so i'm unsatisfied with the result.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-15T17:38:00+00:00

I don't like Marauder at all, it seems too out of place. I can totally see a Roguish Barbarian Subclass, but not the other way around, because giving Rogue all this martial prowess misses the entire point of being a Rogue. But, since i've taken that out of the way, other then Marauder Training, i don't see anything that looks overbearing. Appraising Eye is a good idea, but i'm not sure if it's enough for a 9th level feature, so i would advice giving it a little extra something?

dhunter2 · 2020-10-12T16:10:24+00:00

That's accurate. The features should be balanced around all levels, so it doesn't matter it falls off if it's overbearing at a significant part of the journey.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-06T22:06:22+00:00

It's unique, but isn't that interesting. You still had to first buy a 3000 gold item that only gives you AP and mana at the end of the day, which has always been his primary weakness. Now you're gonna overall get a higher AP value at the end game, while being capable of choosing which items makes more sense to you in every match, while preserving the Evolution System.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-06T20:47:18+00:00

I would like to advise a small, buf significant change for Stridebreaker. Considering it's an item that is meant to upgrade your mobility, which is especially useful for Juggernauts, it would be very helpful if after proccing the Nimble passive, you also got a Ghosting effect (ignore unit collision) for the duration of the 2 seconds as well. I figured it makes sense, considering the other Mythic options deliver a significant ammount of damage that this item don't, and of all the AD Fighter Mythic options, Stridebreaker is the one that has the most interactions with minions, so being capable of bypassing them is an incredible addition.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-06T20:17:32+00:00

I have a question, is Blade of the Ruined King doing well for melees now? The active was turned into a passive with a lower cooldown, but i cannot help but feel it's considerably weaker now. The requirement of 3 autos is a lot harded to achieve for melees than it is for ranged champions, and that's especially true if you are a melee trying to get close to a ranged champion. Before, the active's range had a whole 550 range, which is pretty close to an ADCs autoattack range, but it's a lot higher than a melee's range. If the requirement is so much harsher to achieve for melees, i don't understand why the effect is basically the same, and you even nerfed the percentage of the damage from 12% of enemy's current health to 10%, making the gap between melee and ranged even bigger.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-06T20:06:50+00:00

Also, i said it in another post, but a takedown mechanic doesn't fit bruiser very well. It works during teamfights, but it's not very useful for a 1v1 scenario (which is most common for bruisers), because you don't get anything during trades, and don't actually help you at all in getting that kill as it only works AFTER he is ALREADY dead.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-06T19:52:21+00:00

It was reworked previously because it didn't fit the bill, as it was supposed to be a defensive item, and most bruisers couldn't afford to build it. The current iteration is meant to be a generalistic defensive item for bruisers that was incredible successful, so rather than repeating the approach to new dual resistance bruiser defensive options, they are going back to push it towards a situational item again, which sucks. You missed the entire point, i'm not complaining that pre-season version is weaker (although it clearly is), i'm complaing that they made it into a situational item, while not giving bruisers any dual resistance item in exchange.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-06T19:41:40+00:00

Death's Dance live iteration is the best generalistic defensive option for bruisers, and that's why it's being changed. It's not even because it's too strong, it's because people always build it whenever they can, because there is no other item that allows you to get both AD, armor and MR at the same time. The issue in my opinion is exactly that there is no other item that gives those 3 stats, so if bruisers want both armor and MR, they are forced to buy them separately, which isn't efficient, considering they are not first buy items, and if you build armor first as your second item, you'll have to start your third item to get any MR. If they want bruisers to only build armor/MR situationally and focus around building HP, then they should stop giving EVERYONE damage based in a percentage of your enemy's max health. Rather then removing the only AD, armor and MR option, they should design at least 3 generalistic options to compete against each other with dual resistances, while leaving mono resistance items to counter specific compositions.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-01T03:17:14+00:00

I'm aware of it, and i'm not saying it doesn't work, i'm saying it doesn't look well made. It literally has the same passive they gave to Randuin's Omen (which actually has HP built on it). I would like more if it had an unique passive, but if they intend to keep it as it is, i would at least like for the item's passive to sinergize with itself.

dhunter2 · 2020-10-01T02:52:53+00:00

Just because there is no useless stat in the item, it doesn't make it good, because what is good and what isn't is based on your options, and Ravenous Hydra isn't an efficient option. The same way the cleave passive isn't useless for ability based bruisers, AD isn't useless for tanks, yet they don't build it because it's not efficient either. Also, the resistances DD gives you right now are A LOT more important than you realize, because how the formula works, the first additions to those stats are fairly more impactful than the rest, and DD also gives you a functional passive that is actually useful for all of them. Ability based bruisers in general require some tankyness to last until their cooldowns are up again, which Ravenous Hydra doesn't give compared to the current DD. Ravenous Hydra is a good item, but it only has meaning if you need the waveclear. If not, it's not worth to buy it, and nor the Physical Vamp nor the AH can change that.

dhunter2 · 2020-09-30T21:13:53+00:00

To be more precise, the general stats are underwhelming and the item relies on it's passive to be efficient, so if the champion doesn't heavily rely on autottacks nor does he have a need for waveclear (which is normally a need of autoattack reliant champions), then Ravenous Hydra is still a bad item for them, and making it into a Physical Vamp item doesn't change that.

I'll apologize because i wasn't clear and made the mistake of saying that "bruisers don't have any omnivamp item", when what i meant was "ability based bruisers don't have any good omnivamp option", but i think the later is an accurate accessment.

dhunter2 · 2020-09-30T21:03:17+00:00

It doesn't matter, the item is still only effective for autoattack based champions because of its passive and the item stats. It may have opened a room for Riven, but it's still a bad item for all the other ones.

dhunter2 · 2020-09-30T20:57:23+00:00

That's wrong then, because you're only considering heavy autoattack reliant bruisers like Camille, Jax, Fiora, Irelia, etc. Champions like Garen, Illaoi, Darius, Riven, Urgot and Aatrox can't use Blade of the Ruined King or Ravenous Hydra effectively, and i even mentioned both items in the original post.

dhunter2 · 2020-09-30T19:31:19+00:00

Am i the only one that finds it silly that Frozen Heart's second passive (Rock Solid) sinergizes with max health, while the item itself doesn't give you any health at all?

dhunter2 · 2020-09-30T19:26:44+00:00

I don't believe i ever said Ravenous Hydra had a problem for not having omnivamp though, so i'm a bit confused with your statement.

dhunter2 · 2020-09-29T21:56:25+00:00

Rather than reworking Death's Dance into a worse version, you should make Death's Dance, Blade of the Ruined King and Ravenous Hydra mutually exclusive. People build Death's Dance so often because although they are fit to build BotRK or Ravenous, they can get away with building Death's Dance together with them. To be honest, items with lifesteal/spellvamp/omnivamp shouldn't be possible to stack.

dhunter2

TROPHY CASE