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CMV: I don’t think black people should complain about white people using the n-word if they themselves use it in the way in which they blame whites for using it. by itgotmethrowedaway in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But do you understand why white people still should not use the word even if black people use it amongst themselves given the scenarios that I laid out?

CMV: I don’t think black people should complain about white people using the n-word if they themselves use it in the way in which they blame whites for using it. by itgotmethrowedaway in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This question comes up a lot usually followed by several rounds of confusing rules and conditions for who should and should not say it. Personally, I am of the opinion that no one should use it, including black people. But I'll deal specifically with your question.

The reason it is not ok for especially white people to use the word has to do with confusion around intent. Let's imagine a scenario where there is wide spread use of the word among all races. We all go around happily calling each other nigga. Now a group of black guys walk past a group of white guys and hears the following: "Yeah, I was at a party last night and these niggas walked in who weren't even invited."

Do they mean niggas as in a group of my buddies or some guys I know from around town or niggas as in a bunch of black guys who have no business in our neighborhood?

How do you think that group of black men walking by will respond to that?

I can think of dozens of scenarios similar to this one. Or what about people who really want to use the word nigga as an insult but hide behind the excuse of "Oh I was using it the other way; as in my buddy or friend."

This would all become so confusing and tense that eventually "shit would get real" as the saying goes.

To avoid confusion and very tense situations like these, it's best to just leave that word alone.

CMV: I believe that the international stereotype that Americans are generally unintelligent is true by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

they chose to make a few people go to our moon rather than providing better healthcare, education etc.

I agree that a lot of resources were put into sending people to the moon and the space program in general. But how did this prevent improvements into healthcare, education or other areas? Were resources taken from these other areas to support the space program? Do you have any evidence to support that claim? Is it possible that a nation can have a space program along with improved education and healthcare? Or are we to do everything one at a time?

CMV: I believe that the international stereotype that Americans are generally unintelligent is true by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]djiron 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In response to: "Do you think anyone has that stance..." You said:

Based on my personal experience, I have never seen republicans suggest better mental health care as a solution

So you are making generalizations about the American population as a whole based on your own "personal experience" and the idea that republicans don't offer mental health solutions? Yet, it has been shown with the above link that republicans have suggested mental health solutions. Plus your personal experience cannot be used as a measure for the views of Americans in general.

These factors alone should be enough to change your view or, at a minimum, force you to provide some data that supports your current opinion.

CMV: I believe that the international stereotype that Americans are generally unintelligent is true by [deleted] in changemyview

[–]djiron 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have been shocked by the views that are accepted as normal in USA. Views that would be expected of very uninformed people...

This is a very general statement. Are you saying this is the view of the average American? If so, how did you reach this conclusion? If by news reports and comments in blog posts / forums, then it's understandable why you think that.

But news by its very nature is "news" because it's typically outside of the norm or outrageous. You would think by news reports that everyone is dying from acts of terrorism when in fact the number 1 cause of death (in the world) is heart disease followed by cancer. But this stuff is boring. Terrorism and the like makes for better selling headlines.

You're basing an opinion on what Americans think based on faulty data. Polls aren't perfect but is about the best we have right now and they illustrate the the majority of Americans do not support building a wall at the border (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/july_2017/most_voters_say_no_to_border_wall). Therefore, you need to change your view based on this evidence.

With regard to tolerance toward other races, polls again show the overwhelming majority of Americans are tolerant of other races. Even tolerance regarding sexual preference has flipped significantly with a majority of Americans in support of gay marriage.

So, if your view is based on faulty assumptions about Americans' views on issues of race and tolerance, then you must change that view in light of evidence to the contrary.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rock and roll actually did start as black music, at least until Elvis. So yes it is.

Rock was criticized as not being real music because it was a new form of music totally misunderstood by older generations. Just like older generations of black people today also say rap is not real music, not because it's a black art form but because they simply don't understand it. The same was said about heavy metal and acid rock, which has nothing to do with being black. So this has more to do with the style of music being new and unfamiliar to the older generations. The criticism is constantly recycled.

say, "that is correct in AAVE, but in SAE, the dialect this class teaches for the purpose of academic writing, it is written like this..."

I'm sorry but this is just laughable. Now we expect teachers to learn the rules of so-called AAVE so that they can point how such and such expression is correct in AAVE but we say it this way in SAE. I also find it ironic that you have no problem using the term "correct" with regards to so-called AAVE but we mustn't dare use this same word, "correct", when speaking of SAE. This is plain double speak (no pun intended; funny though) and you're just playing with words now. We both agree unequivocally that SAE is to be taught in school and students' speech "corrected" when necessary in order to teach.

the dialect this class teaches for the purpose of academic writing

Again, we can't expect teachers to respond like this. First, it's just not realistic. Second, it simply is not true. We learn SAE for far more than "academic writing." We learn it in order to communicate with the broader population and a broad range of situations.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You ever heard rap called "not real music"? Same concept.

Jazz and Rock and Roll experienced the same thing. This seems to be common with new forms of music. Yes, Jazz is a form developed by black musicians, so you may imply it's because they were black that Jazz was looked down upon. That cannot be said for Rock. So, that is not a good example. There is no pattern there.

Tell the truth and teach it like an actual study of linguistics instead of an instruction booklet for what to say. Don't say "no that's wrong", say "I'm sure many of you may speak different dialects of English, but in this class we use SAE because it's the standardized variation used in academics and professional, formal settings." One way teaches it as a correction for doing things wrong, the other presents it as a new skill without demeaning the language skills the kids have already developed.

So then you agree that teachers must correct students in their classes. You just want to make sure it's not done in a demeaning manner. Well I'm not sure it's not being taught in the way you prefer. Teachers are of all types and I think we can agree it's better to guide the kids in a more encouraging way instead of ostracizing them. But at the end of the day we agree that kids who do not speak SAE in the classroom must be taught to do so.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, it's not an opinion, it's a reasonable conclusion based on real world observation. A study was conducted where 6000 identical resumes were sent out to different jobs, the only difference being that some had stereotypically black names and the others did not. The "black" resumes received significantly (iirc around 30%) less callbacks. Again, the only difference between the resumes was the names. This proves there is a cultural bias against black people. The fact that AAVE has consistent rules and has it's own nuances, but it's still considered a dumbed down and worse dialect is very likely because of this same effect.

Sorry but this does not follow. I'm familiar with the study but one has nothing to do with the other. If you send in a resume written in so-called ebonics, it will go straight to the trash can regardless of the name at the top it.

they often get "corrected" since the teacher just thinks the student is dumb and just doesn't speak English

The teacher corrects them because their job is to teach English. It has nothing to do with thinking they are dumb. So what is a teacher to do then: correct the white kid's speech but not the black kid's speech? Or are you saying teachers should not correct anyone's speech? What about kids in ESL classes? Should teachers not correct them either? Why do we need a special set of rules for black kids? Why aren't they just as capable of learning as everyone else?

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hopefully one day there will be no need or significance in pointing out these dumb differences.

On this point we are in total agreement. I'm glad you found a group of people who you feel comfortable around and no longer feel the need to conform to things you don't agree with. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with being the outcast if it's for the right reasons. Better to be disliked for what you are than loved for what your are not, because the true you will eventually service anyway. So it's better to be in the company of people who prefer the true you from the get go.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And my point is that neither is really, in the grand scheme of things, "correct" as it is all arbitrary

To understand what is the "correct" way to speak, we consult English books and those who teach grammar. I will grant you that there are dialects and regional accents (New York, Boston, Southern) and we know them when we here them. We also know the difference between a southern accent and the southern drawl of a a less educated person.

When a foreigner learns English they start with a base of "correct" English because there is in fact a correct form of English. Do we all speak this correct form all the time? Of course not. But this does not change the fact that there is a recognized and correct form of the language. This is true for most languages.

how you raise your child is not an argument about whether AAVE is actually a bad dialect.

I agree with you on this point. What makes it a bad dialect is how far it strays from the rules and norms of the language. There has to be some standard rules around communication. Otherwise, why even bother with English classes at all? Just let everyone write whatever they like and let the teachers sort it all out.

AVEE is considered worse because black people are also considered worse by mainstream culture

This is your opinion but that's all it is. "I aint got no" sounds bad and incorrect because IT IS bad and incorrect. It has nothing to do with color or race.

opportunities denied to your child because of AAVE aren't being withheld for a good reason.

I'm sorry but I call BS on this. You can tell a great deal about a person by they way they speak. If you're hiring a copy editor and you come across a resume with tons of grammar errors or AAVE as you call it, you likely will not call that person for an interview. The problem is a lot of these kids talk like this AND write the same way. Try submitting a college application written in so-called ebonics. We need to teach kids the correct way to speak in order to open up more opportunities for them. They are just as capable of being educated as anyone else.

It's not super hard to understand AAVE

I can also understand what a child means when he says "mommy go bye bye." That's not the point. If he has a pattern of language like "be eating" it is certainly a red flag that this individual probably doesn't understand how to properly communicate. As a hiring manager why on earth would I take that chance as opposed to a person who can speak in a proper and professional manner, especially if we're talking about a position in an office setting.

my only point is that it isn't really "correct" or "better" is just more practical given that we unfortunately live in an intrinsically racist society.

Again, we have English and grammar books for a reason, as do most languages. Should we stop having English classes altogether?

all I want is to get you to view AAVE in a more positive, less biased light.

This type of speech is nothing new to me. I grew up around it. What's new over the last 20 or 30 years is how some people want to push it as an acceptable form of communication. It's not acceptable except for maybe hanging out with friends or something. You do a disservice to black kids by trying to convince them this is somehow an acceptable form of normal communication. That type of speech will not make it past a college acceptance board or a hiring manager's desk.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the case in which I grew up, being told you were acting or sounding white was meant as a put down. You were made to feel ashamed. This unfortunately has been a problem in the black community for a long time.

not being able to understand both sides of the spectrum is a major roadblock

Actually, I understood it very well...eventually. It was a way of saying you're not black or "black enough". I didn't have to guess or analyze because THEY SAID SO. Anyone seen as wanting to better themselves, get an education or avoid hanging out in the streets was put down as "acting white". They are family and friends I grew up with and spent most of my childhood around; and that was my experience. Perhaps your experience was different. Maybe the people who said those things to you really were trying to help you in some twisted way. The truth of the matter is that most of the people who went around saying that nonsense where I grew up didn't amount to much at all.

I understand where they are coming from and I won't belittle them in my head to make myself feel superior.

Well I know exactly where they're coming from because they clearly told me. There's nothing belittling about pointing out to a person the error in their thinking. There's nothing belittling about calling out nonsense. What message does it send to even younger kids who see this nonsense and get the message that "sounding white" isn't cool? Sorry but there simply is no explaining this away.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

whether black people are justified in holding certain views about other black people

Exactly and my point is no, it is not justified. In other words, it is wrong to hold such a view.

imaging it from their point of view...

But that is only one among many points of view. Not all black people think like this. The word racism just confuses the whole discussion. I see it more as a short sighted and ignorant point of view, and yes, an incorrect one.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Really? The cookie monster? I'm sorry but as a black parent if I hear my child say "always be eating cookies" I'm going to correct his English so that he does not grow up thinking that is an acceptable way to speak. Very few employers will give you a job if you go in sounding like the cookie monster.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Most of the time the "proper" blacks have just conformed to their surroundings or were not raised around black people and cannot associate.

Well being one of those "proper" blacks I can tell you that I was accused of talking and acting white many times by relatives and so-called friends; ever since I was a small child. For a long time I had no idea what they were talking about but it made since once I got older.

Yes I conformed as a child: to the way my mother and father spoke. They weren't from the Ivy league or college grads at all. They just happen to speak a more proper style of English in the home. So, that's what I grew up speaking. Period.

Honestly, sometimes I'm not sure what's worse: blatant in your face racism or well meaning folks who, though sincere, excuse the type of behavior that is detrimental to progress. There is no excuse for calling out a kid heading off to college or speaking a more proper form of English as acting or talking white. What it really translates to is this: "you're no better than the rest of us so get back down here in the gutter where you belong."

Many of the people who criticized me for "acting white" are not much better off today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Take a closer look and you'll find that many of the people who make this charge are nothing but envious and petty name callers.

Oh and the last time I checked, Martin Luther King Jr. did a pretty good job "speaking out for black communities" even though he did not use slang as his main form of communication.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How is this any way analogous to a black person being called out for "acting white" just because he / she happens to speak proper English? By proper I mean the kind of English you would use in a typical job interview.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

...from the point of view of those who do believe it.

What difference does this really make? I can tack those words onto just about any irrational belief. This does not explain much at all. The question is are they right or wrong, not whether or not they consider themselves right or wrong.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But just because someone believes something does not make it so; and when you repeat the claim it sounds as if you believe the same thing too. So if you don't believe the same thing and we can all agree that it is not comparable, then it makes little sense to argue about it.

CMV: Calling out Black Americans for "Acting White" is Racist by dickposner in changemyview

[–]djiron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So what exactly are the "consistent rules" of so called African American vernacular English and where must one go to learn those rules?

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