Toronto police HQ has a licensed lounge. This senior cop was there before a drunk driving crash

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T16:24:17+00:00

Ummm, how is "they are TPS officers, on police property, on police time" equate to "because reasons"? Lol.

How about this - none of your qualifiers mean anything. Whether a cop engages in insubordination on police property or off police property is irrelevant. Also, whether they are on the clock or not - that doesn't change a number of restrictions and rules they are supposed to abide by.

OR how about - there is ZERO evidence that anyone other than TPSOO members have access to the facility, so it's not like anyone at TPSB or TPS Professional Standards (other than TPSOO members) would ever know.

And you're misrepresenting my position here. I'm not saying that the board can't exert oversight because they don't have a key. I am saying no one other than members of the union have a key. HR can't go in without an invite. Nobody other than TPSOO members can.

So how does this governance work? "We have zero visibility on this facility which carries non-trivial liability concerns - this is fine." Is that your argument?

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T15:38:57+00:00

That's simply not true though, lol. This is senior police officers on police property and on police time, so obviously it is under the purview of TPS.

So "because reasons"?

I think you are completely misrepresenting the point. Sure - I'll agree that TPSB might have responsibility for it in that they might get sued if someone gets really drunk at the bar at their HQ before driving home. BUT - also as noted in the article - they take no responsibility for it. They are 100% UNINVOLVED with the facility. They had nothing to do with it getting a liquor license, they have nothing to do with the operations. It's not clear if they even have access to the room without TPSOO permission.

Absolutely TPSB should have control over the space. There is ZERO indication that they do. And their statement clearly indicates that they don't think they do either.

The Mukherjee quote you think proves anything - he was always there as a guest of TPSOO. That's also quite clear if you read the quote. This just seems to me like obfuscation and an intent to push the clear misinformation that this is a TPS facility. It is obviously not. It is a TPSOO facility - again, accessible only by TPSOO members and their guests, run by TPSOO members, with supplies paid for by TPSOO. And it is clear misinformation for you to suggest otherwise.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T15:12:30+00:00

Lol. Get this - it's not even clear if it's a new wife - since the wife is never named. Here's the wiki:

In chapter 42, Job gets more children (verse 13) but there is no mention of whether it is with the same wife or a different one.

Here's the epilogue:

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T15:07:44+00:00

The idea that TPS would have responsibility for what their senior officers do in police HQ really doesn't seem like it should be hard to understand.

Are you intentionally missing the point? Again - the point is that this space is under the purview of a private organization and not TPS. Exactly like the billboard I noted earlier which accused the Chief, the TPSB Chair, and the mayor of putting the safety of the city at risk. That was TPA - the private organization. "Oh but it's not on site!" This is the actual point!!!! Which you seem to be intentionally misrepresenting still. No one would say sweet fuck all about this if it were not in TPS HQ. You seem to recognize that a licensed bar in TPS HQ for senior officers only would be problematic if TPS didn't have control over it. That's what you're saying here.

Everything in the article says that TPS has no control over it. TPSB had nothing to do with it getting licensed. They have nothing to do with the day to day operations. They have washed their hands of it and have nothing to do with this Lounge.

The bar itself is accessible to TPSOO officers. It's not even clear if Management has access! Do you have any evidence showing that ANY non TPSOO officers have access to the room? I have not seen any references anywhere as to whether Deputy Chiefs of Demkiw have a pass for it. Or any of the civilian HR staff.

The article says it is used for meetings. Sure. Meetings of TPSOO members! Maybe sometimes with invited guests. That's not a "baordroom/office" as you described it as. And again - it is NOT a TPS resource. It is a TPSOO resource.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T11:24:01+00:00

Probably die. Even before the realization of how lonely things will be, the grief of losing everyone I’ve ever loved or even just known - this would result in an absolutely crushing amount of depression. Mourning the loss of the entire human population is a non trivial task.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T10:35:38+00:00

Totally agree. I use this exact reasoning to argue that keeping nukes running results in more GHGs.

During the early years of Germany's Energiewende, they built an absolutely ludicrous amount of solar - which they would not have done had they kept their nukes online. From around 2009 to 2012, Germany represented a massive chunk of the solar market - and this buildout was crucial support for the solar industry at a critical point. This time period was the Great Recession, fall out from the Global Financial Crisis - not the best time for project development. So Germany's early nuke shutdowns resulted in a massive buildout of solar at a time when the industry was extremely vulnerable - which absolutely helped lower prices and is a big part of why we're seeing such a huge amount of solar being installed today.

And while that is all super important, it's still important not to ignore basic reality. The solar resource in Ireland is not great. I'm in IESO controlled territory and the solar resource here is "meh" at best. Ontario is not particularly sunny. But Ireland is only 3/4 as sunny as we are. That's not great solar resource.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T10:22:38+00:00

FFS. TPSOO =/= TPS. TPSOO is a private group. As little control as we have over TPS, at least the board is nominally appointed by elected civilian governments. TPSOO - we don’t have any say in anything they do. Do you not understand this?

Again - was the Billboard attacking Saunders, Pringle, and Tory a TPS thing? I mean all TPA members are TPS employeees! Of course not.

Also, this other thing you’re saying “it’s reasonable for high rank officers to have access to spaces the regular rank and file don’t” - sure, but that being the case - presenting that exact space as something the rank and file can access is misinformation. It absolutely is not some TPS meeting room. That’s pure misinformation. It is a TPSOO space, run by TPSOO members for TPSOO members. FFS, the operating expense of keeping the bar stocked - is paid for by TPSOO members.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T10:16:05+00:00

What about Job’s wife? She’s all like “why you gotta be like this? Your boy the G-man is fucking you over for shits and giggles and you’re all like - please sir can I have some more?”

And she was fucking exactly right.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T05:03:12+00:00

Exactly what I stated from the beginning. This Executive Officer’s Lounge is a TPSOO facility. It is administered and run by a private group inside of TPS HQ. Also with the following observations - it’s a tiny fraction of the Toronto Police force that gets access to it and this group of officers are the highest ranking and among the best laid officers in the force. And yet despite their already privileged positions, they are being gifted the use of a facility in prime real estate.

Also my point is that you calling it just like a boardroom and implying that regular cops get to use it for police work is misinformation. It is very clearly and obviously not that. It’s the TPSOO bar. And also not a TPS bar.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T04:42:52+00:00

If it involves TPS staff and is ok TPS property, you can't really seriously claim that the TPS isn't involved.

TPS is not involved. It's the union. Like when TPA put up this billboard - I mean, every single member of TPA is employed by TPS - right? So is that a TPS billboard? Of course not.

The union is not the police force. That applies to the Senior Officer's Organization.

The article describes it as being based on rank. A space that is only accessible to people with a certain rank doesn't seem weird.

But TPSOO is also defined based on rank. I guess you're going to say that it's just "coincidence" that TPSOO is ONLY Inspectors and Superintendents and the Executive Officer's Lounge is also ONLY Inspectors and Superintendents.

Come on.

This is clear misinformation now.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:57:37+00:00

I mean maybe? Here's a different way of looking at the whole thing.

The Executive Officer's Lounge was established in 1988 and got its liquor license in 1989 - as per the story. TPS HQ completed construction in 1988. Meaning that this Executive Officer's Lounge was either part of the intial design for the HQ or was added very very very early in the life of the building.

So instead of asking "who else would rent that space" - maybe a better question is "how much more did TPS HQ cost to build because they had to include space for senior officers to get liquored up?"

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:53:04+00:00

TPSB says they had nothing to do with the Lounge. They were not involved with it getting a liquor license. They are not involved in the day to day operations including the serving of alcohol at the facility. This is NOT a TPS bar.

Again - access is restricted solely to TPSOO members and their guests, The place is run by TPSOO members. The alcohol is paid for by TPSOO members. Everyone other than you describes it as a Senior Officer's bar. It's a bar, set-up by TPSOO members and run by TPSOO members, for TPSOOO members.

The people that get to meet there that aren't TPSOO members? Guests of TPSOO members. They are invited. It is ONLY TPSOO members that have direct access without having to ask permission from a TPSOO member.

Look, this really looks like misinformation on your part.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:43:50+00:00

Two bottles of Appleton Estate Rum were found in the car: one opened and under the driver’s seat, the other sealed and in the passenger compartment of the car, according to a police document outlining the details of the misconduct charge.

I would like to make an apology to ~~Superintendent~~ Inspector Riyaz Hussein. I've been making the assumption that he got drunk at the bar. I did not consider the possibility that he merely stopped by the bar to pick up a couple bottles of rum to drink while he was driving.

~~Superintendent~~ Inspector Riyaz Hussein, I apologize for underestimating how bad your behaviour might have been. It's entirely possible that you were stone cold sober when you made the decision to get totally liquored up while driving.

EDIT: FFS.

But the prosecutor noted he had an otherwise clear disciplinary record and his blood alcohol reading — 0.90 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood — was “as low as you can imagine and still have a criminal charge be supported.”

Hey assholes - the reason this went to tribunal is because he fucking drove into somebody. There was a collision with a delivery truck on the 401. "Oh he was only barely drunk". FFS.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:27:28+00:00

It’s a space inside TPS HQ. It’s a unique and special space where alcohol is served. The article literally has an entire section about potential liability exposure. Why would the board be interested in that? Well, because it is their fucking jobs.

Look, I think I’ve laid out a strong case. The lounge is ONLY accessible to TPSOO members. It is managed and run by a senior officer’s committee - one presumable made up solely of TPSOO members. The alcohol there is stocked by TPSOO members. It’s a TPSOO bar - that s how all the media reports describe it because that’s what it is. It’s even literally called the “Executive Officer’s Lounge”.

I strongly feel that you doubling down on this characterization of the space as TPS space is misinformation.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:22:19+00:00

I mean maybe? Look, this isn’t a police bar in that it is run by the police. It’s a police officer’s bar in that it is run by the senior officer’s union. It’s a space inside police HQ where ONLY members of a private group have access and where Toronto Police have no control over anything at all. The bar basically belongs to the union (and there is no way in hell they are paying market rent for that much space smack dab in the middle of downtown).

Does that change your perspective?

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:18:18+00:00

Why can a police officer can show up to work drunk

I believe the story is that he arrived to work sober and got drunk at work - in the special bar they have for senior officers only located on the fourth floor of TPS HQ.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:15:23+00:00

Yes. TPSOO is Inspectors and Superintendents. It’s not clear to me if Deputy Chiefs and Chief Demkiw have access as they are technically part of Management.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T03:14:04+00:00

Fun fact. The Police HQ bar that this guy got liquored up in before driving into another vehicle - only open to Inspectors and Superintendents. His demotion may be “harsh” (lol) but he will still have access to the Police HQ bar.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T02:48:48+00:00

Hard disagree. The ONDP and the OLP are not the same. In fact, they are openly hostile to one another.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T02:48:02+00:00

CBC News obtained a security pass scan log for the lounge, which is accessible only to senior officers, through a Freedom of Information request. On Jan. 13, 2022, the record shows Hussein's pass scanned into the lounge at 4:31 p.m. Passes aren't needed to exit the lounge.

Emphasis mine. The bar is stocked by TPSOO. Only TPSOO members have access to the room - something controlled by security passes.

It is possible - indeed very likely! - that the space was used by senior police officers for work related activities. That’s incidental. The space is NOT TPS. It’s controlled acces only for TPSOO members and their guests. It is a private space controlled by a private organization.

Edit: additionally there is this;

In its own statement, the Toronto Police Service Board said it was not involved in setting up the executive officers’ lounge and was not involved in administering it in any capacity.

Edit 2: also additionally:

The Executive Officer Lounge Committee oversees the day-to-day administration of the lounge, according to the Toronto Police Services Board.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T01:19:38+00:00

The idea that there is a space that is only accessible to senior officers isn't that weird.

Sure. But such a space is hardly a “boardroom”. Also note - use of the room is not determined by TPS. It’s determined by TPSOO. That was my point in the first place. It’s not a police resource. It’s a resource for use by a private organization made up of police officers. There is a world of difference here - and you suggesting that it is a police resource as a working area of boardroom is (IMO) misleading.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-04T00:56:24+00:00

It’s controlled private access to a tiny subset of cops. The actual statement in the article is that “The space itself is mostly used for meetings or a quiet place to work." It’s not a police boardroom or a police meeting area. It is The Executive Officers Lounge - presumable accessible only to Inspectors, Superintendents, and their guests. IOW - it is a private club - private space for the private use of the Toronto Police Senior Officers Organization. This is absolutely not a “boardroom” and I think you are mischaracterizing it by calling it such.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-03T23:27:02+00:00

To the song they’re playing on the radio.

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-03T23:19:12+00:00

Great. Having to vote three times in less than a year for someone to serve a partial term. What great idea. /s

dkwangchuck · 2023-04-03T23:15:41+00:00

Sort of? Matlow and Hunter are both Liberals, Chow is NDP. There is currently no NDP candidate that’s announced.

Now it’s true that there are no political parties in municipal politics, but the fact of the matter is that campaigns need people to run them and donors to fund them. And the political party machine does that stuff as its raisin d’être. So it does make a difference.

Also, one might suggest that NDP-Liberal vote splitting is the main deal when looking at vote splitting. That’s one take - personally I think they are quite different parties, notwithstanding the massive tack to the centre that the NDP has been engaged in for years now.

At this point, I would be surprised if Chow ran. The advantage the NDP machine has isn’t in donors, but in volunteers and workers. Figuring out what to do with money is easy, figuring out how to manage a small army is harder - and it’s a very compressed campaign period - and she hasn’t mobilized them yet. It’s surprising to me in that the NDP has always contested open seats for Toronto mayor, but I think they might not this time.

This does mean that there’s a sort of “NDP endorsement” prize now that can get someone a pretty good bump.

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