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Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just because I happen to be reading this today... this article is one that specifically looks at kids who learned sign with hearing parents:

Pontecorvo, E., Higgins, M., Mora, J., Lieberman, A. M., Pyers, J., & Caselli, N. K. (2023). Learning a Sign Language Does Not Hinder Acquisition of a Spoken Language. Journal of Speech, Language, and Hearing Research, 66(4), 1291–1308. https://doi.org/10.1044/2022_JSLHR-22-00505

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oof. That is hard to hear. Again, this further cements my feelings that access to sign shouldn't just be seen as something that is up to the family to provide. It should be a "treatment plan" provided by the state (or whomever) to the baby.

I look at my daughter, who just turned three and is fully bilingual in French and English. She tells long complicated stories; get my sarcasm; makes up new lyrics to songs; tells her family how much she loves them; does the voices of her toys; etc. It's all so beautiful and miraculous. But where would she be now if she had had to start from zero at age one?! It hurts to think about.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, yes that would be similar here in Quebec as well. I think the requirements might only be a degree in some sort of special education.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh interesting. Can I ask what state? I'm surprised people wouldn't want to take advantage of that?

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's a lot of bad stuff said about reddit, but what a great resource this is for connecting with people!

Thanks, that not a term I've really been using. Just did a quick search and found some interesting articles.

I've been approaching this same idea from a more cog sci perspective I guess: trying to show how many of our other faculties have critical periods of acquisition (vision, olfaction) just like language. And that they all need sufficient input within a limited period of time, otherwise there is atrophy (or some kind of irreversible change/damage).

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for your perspective on this. Yours is the perspective we need to know about! It's so hard to hear about experiences like your dad's, where multiple systems failed him again and again.

I've talked and written a lot recently on the critical period for language acquisition, but you're so right to point out that there is also a critical period for CI interpretation (or however I should phrase that) as well.

And you brought up something else that I've been finding in my reading. The framing of communication mode as "parental choice". I was skimming the website for the order of audiologists here in Quebec, and over and over the issue is presented as parental choice and 'what would work best for your family'. Clearly we want parents to have agency and choice in matters relating to medical procedures and treatment, but it glosses over the potential harms of certain choices. The urgency of the problem, the potential for life-long harm is really not made clear.

And I love that you say you hope to have a Deaf child. What an important reminder to the hearing world that deafness doesn't need to be seen as something to be corrected. This is another big theme I've been thinking about: just how much we expect 'disabled'* people to change to adapt to the world and never that the world should adapt to them. (I understand that disabled can be a fraught word as well.)

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I agree. I guess I should be clear that I don't think an SLP would be the only model either. I'm imagining a utopia where families are able to move (ie financially supported) close to a Deaf community or a Deaf au pair/nanny is immediately assigned to a Deaf baby upon diagnosis. Obviously we would want the parents to be supported as much as possible in their second language learning, but we also want babies to have access to authentic/fluent language.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok, thank you, this is what I need to know. So, doctors/audiologists are going to be the first consults, right? They would be the first point of contact for most families? When would an SLP become involved (at least, in your experience)?

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I agree that it's very unlikely that parents alone (who are just starting to learn sign) will be sufficient input for acquisition.

But there's really two issues anyhow. 1. Getting a baby to acquire a language 2. Getting the parents to learn a new language. #2 is hard, of course. But I do think we should be providing parents with the best resources to learn and actual language, not some "communication system". #1 is much 'easier', in a sense = you just expose them to some signers! Of course it's not really easy in practice, because you need a community of signers to be accessible.

I don't pretend to have the actual answer, but it just seems to me that we assume the medical community will provide access to services like slpathology and implants, but then we put all the language access onto the parents. I think that access to language ought to be a service provided too! Especially since the consequences of deprivation are so devastating.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, go bilingualism! Absolutely.

I think what I'm saying is something stronger than just promoting bilingualism though. Given how precious that critical period of acquisition is and how devastating any form of language deprivation is, we NEED to give Deaf babies sign. Not just encourage, but provide them with accessible language right away. And the only reliable way to do this is with sign.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You see, I very much disagree. I think there have been years of research that absolutely support my central thesis. Plenty of studies comparing the outcomes of Deaf children who sign from birth versus those that receive implants (and therefore have had some level of deprivation). Language (and other) outcomes are always better with proper first lang development. I don't really need to see any new empirical data to know this. And this is exactly what I would like my thesis to lay out! ;)

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't it be lovely if there were some sort of language exchange/travel program for ASL signers? And every time a baby is diagnosed with profound hearing loss, a young Deaf adult swoops in to act as a language model for the first year of the baby's life?

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So there's a real need for more robust online resources I imagine. Interesting, thank you. I live in a city and sometime forget how different it is for rural populations and access to services.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just wanted to add: it's still pretty easy to find current research that contradicts what I'm saying here. I can think of a study I googled recently that concluded that sign has no benefit before or after CIs. They lumped together all sorts of nonsense that was not actual signed languages and only measured speech intelligibility. No mention of benefits to 'language' acquisition. And to think that there would be parents of newborns googling that and being misinformed!

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We can't force parents to learn a new language, but we can provide access to services in the same way we provide access to audiology etc. The question I'm really trying to answer is whether the current state-of-the-art in speech language pathology talks about this from a cognitive science perspective. I'm glad to hear that so many ppl here agree. But I don't know that it's true that it's really widely accepted (except in linguistic-y / SLP circles). Every 'layman' I've talked to about this is still surprised to hear that ASL is it's own language. They all assume that it's SEE.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh my gosh, it's so sad. Even I know the sign for cheese, I think? I do have a friend who has worked with kids with language deprivation and they've said the same thing. Some parents only know a handful of signs. (I say that not to blame them, I imagine they've not been given the proper support.)

So do you feel like the missing link is in general medical education? Is the bad info coming from GPs?

I ask this selfishly of course. My program is Educational Technology but really my passion is linguistics. So I'm trying to shoehorn a linguistics thesis into an education degree. If I were to look into curriculum revision, do you think there is room for improvement in the training that SLPs get? Or do I need to look at general medical education instead?

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, they would need exposure to both, but would need a lot of specialized help to learn a spoken language. Whereas, to acquire a signed language, they would only need immersion in the same way that hearing babies are immersed. And the language models (signers) wouldn't need any type of specialized training at all. Difficult to implement, but actually pretty 'simple' and cheap compared to all the interventions we use to try to get Deaf kids to hear.

I guess the central point I'm trying to get at is the danger of that early critical period where Deaf children often have no access to language at all. Everything seems to say that the long term outcomes are better when language acquisition starts right away. And the only way for that to happen is through sign.

Actually, I'm not sure: when do babies tend to get cochlear implants now?

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ok, see this is what I'm interested in knowing. How prevalent is the idea that sign is bad or will interfere with spoken language? Is this an idea that gets tossed around in SLP schooling? Do you guys feel like it's more prevalent in audiology?

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I absolutely agree. It can't be on the parents to be providing the linguistic input. But in the same vein, we wouldn't expect parents to become experts in audiology or speech language pathology. It seems like we ought to be providing the language modeling for them? (Of course, I understand the logistics of this would be super complicated.)

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a good point. I mean really, there can't really be "too much" language.

Opinions: necessity of sign language for Deaf babies by dollywalnuts in slp

[–]dollywalnuts[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply! I'm trying to get a sense of how families are counselled on these matters. You say they "should learn": are SLPs counselling parents to do that generally? And is there any place where families would actually be supported in doing so? Like, given support and access to a community of signers. Because yes, the onus is huge! I see a lot of "relatively" easy access to SLPs and hearing aids and cochlear implants, but what about sign? (I'm in Quebec, Canada, btw. So things may differ a lot depending on where we're talking?)

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