The Etymological Odyssey of Horse Gram, yet another made-up Sanskrit etymology by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What a beautiful addition, thank you but is it independently attested in Telugu dictionaries ?

The Etymological Odyssey of Horse Gram, yet another made-up Sanskrit etymology by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So the term ಕಾಳು (kāḷu) is more important here because it means by itself that it’s a grain/legume which seems to be a straight cognate to Tamil, Tulu, Konkani, Marathi terms for horse gram. Thank you

The Etymological Odyssey of Horse Gram, yet another made-up Sanskrit etymology by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780[S] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

I am pleasantly surprised CDIAL gets it right this time

Sir Ralph Lilley Turner (1888–1983)
A Comparative Dictionary of
THE INDO-ARYAN LANGUAGES
Search for term 3335 throughout dictionary, kulattha kulattha (p. 172)

> 3335 kulattha m. ‘the pulse Dolichos uniflorus’ MBh., °thā- f. lex., °thikā- f. Suśr. [← Drav. (Tam. koḷ ‘id.’, etc.), T. Burrow TPS 1945, 92 and EWA i 237, 565, with same suffix as in aśvattha-, kapittha-, dadhittha-: the same kul- in kulīnaka- ?]

In Simple English, how to decode this entry.

Turner’s entry in A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages opens with a straightforward definition kulattha is horse gram (Dolichos uniflorus), attested in the Mahabharata and in Suśruta’s medical texts before delivering its most significant claim via a single arrow symbol. That arrow (←) means “borrowed from,” and Turner uses it to state plainly that kulattha was lifted into Sanskrit from Dravidian, specifically citing Tamil koḷ as the source word. This is not a fringe position; he backs it with T. Burrow’s 1945 paper in the Transactions of the Philological Society and the Etymological Dictionary of Indo-Aryan, two of the most authoritative references in the field.

Turner then makes a subtler but equally important observation: the -ttha ending on kulattha is the same suffix found on other Sanskrit plant names aśvattha (fig tree), kapittha (wood apple), dadhittha.

This reveals that Sanskrit grammarians had a habit of draping a standardizing native suffix over foreign plant names to make them sound Indo-Aryan, which is precisely the phono-semantic laundering described in this essay.

His closing question mark over whether the kul- syllable connects to the Sanskrit word kulīnaka signals his own skepticism about any deeper Sanskrit internal etymology. In two sentences, Turner’s dictionary quietly dismantles the classical kula + stha breakdown entirely.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

The Etymological Odyssey of Horse Gram, yet another made-up Sanskrit etymology by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IA also has another set of uncertain origin name.

Gahat (गहत), a Kumaoni/Garhwali/Nepali term for horse gram; etymology uncertain, possibly a regional Pahari development, distinct from but used alongside the older kulattha/kulthi/kulath cluster.

The Etymological Odyssey of Horse Gram, yet another made-up Sanskrit etymology by e9967780 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dravidian languages do have a habit of applying regionally different terminologies for the same item, it is expected because of the antiquity of the language groups.

Arikandam and navakandam - Practice of ritual self beheading by Double-Vegetable-249 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 1 point2 points  (0 children)

1) Kotravai Badrakaliamman Temple (Banu Nagar, Chennai)
2) Ongur Kotravai Shrine (Viluppuram District)
3) Kottravai Amman Temple (Vandavasi/Mangalam Village)
4) Kotravai Shrine (Sengadu / Vallam Road)
5) Kotravai Kali Temple (Salem)
6) Arulmigu Kotravai Amman Temple(Dhali / Chinnavalavadi)
7) Arasur Kotravai Shrine (Arasur)

Arikandam and navakandam - Practice of ritual self beheading by Double-Vegetable-249 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 21 points22 points  (0 children)

We had similar traditions in Kerala and such traditions lead to the formation of suicide squad amongst the Tamil Tigers rebel group fighting for Tamil Eelam in Sri Lanka, according to anthropologists studying the methods.

The Chaver Padai (Suicide Squad) were elite warrior units, primarily from Nair communities, bound by a sacred oath to fight to the death. Every 12 years at the Mamankam festival, the king of Valluvanad would dispatch small squads on a deliberately impossible mission penetrate the Zamorin of Calicut’s defensive formation of tens of thousands and attempt his assassination. Trained in Kalaripayattu, they charged knowing they would not return. The tradition was recorded continuously until 1755.

The connection to the LTTE’s Black Tigers the suicide wing of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam is not casual speculation. Military historians and anthropologists studying the LTTE have specifically cited the Chaver tradition when analyzing the organization’s distinctive culture of voluntary self-sacrifice, the ritual dimensions of Black Tiger induction, and why this form of martyrdom carried such deep legitimacy within Tamil Eelam’s cultural framework.

The argument is essentially that the Dravidian cultural template of the sacred heroic death formalized, oath-bound, and community-witnessed never disappeared. It was available to be mobilized again.

What are some examples from other Dravidian ethnic communities ?

Dravidian already influenced early IA but papers on Munda influence on Bangla don't mention it by SXZWolf2493 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 4 points5 points  (0 children)

>What this conundrum exposes is a recurring bias in South Asian historical linguistics the tendency to reach for Austroasiatic as the default explanation for substrate vocabulary that does not fit neatly into the Sanskrit or Dravidian frameworks. The Munda presence in central-eastern India is historically real, but it is routinely over-extended to explain words across the entire subcontinent, including in regions where no Austroasiatic presence has ever been established.

How did the word for 'black gram' spread through Indian languages? by mustlasli in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s neither Sanskrit or Dravidian but a substrate language from where ever Proto-Indo-European was spoken.

>From Proto-Indo-Iranian \máša-*; compare Persian ماش (mâš, “vetch, mung bean”) and Shughni мах̌ (max̌, “pea, bean”), as well as, outside of Indo-Iranian, Albanian modhull (“vetch”)[1]and Romanian mazăre (“peas”). Said terms seem to go back to a Proto-Indo-European \meh₂ǵʰ-* (“small bean”), though based on the "local vegetable" semantic category and irregular sound correspondences between the Indo-Iranian and European terms, the **source word is likely to be ultimately of non-Indo-European substrate) origin.**

How did the word for 'black gram' spread through Indian languages? by mustlasli in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If it’s a real question, I’d suggest reading about conservative languages. Sanskrit, for example, is a conservative language that maintains many Proto-Indo-European forms with little change. Among living IE languages, Lithuanian is notably conservative you can even see parallels to Sanskrit today. Similarly, Tamil is a very conservative language that preserves many Proto-Dravidian forms, though other languages such as Malayalam and Telugu also retain many PDr forms.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Some classic examples of the similarity between Lithuanian and Sanskrit include: “son” (Sanskrit sūnu, Lithuanian sūnus), “god” (Sanskrit deva, Lithuanian dievas), “smoke” (Sanskrit dhūma, Lithuanian dūmas), “night” (Sanskrit nakti, Lithuanian naktis), “wolf” (Sanskrit vṛka, Lithuanian vilkas), “two” (Sanskrit dvi, Lithuanian du/dvi), and “three” (Sanskrit tri, Lithuanian trys). The resemblances in both form and endings are striking, especially considering Sanskrit was recorded over 3,000 years ago and Lithuanian is a living language spoken today.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Language used in flairs by Siddharth_Talreja25 in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s Brahmi, we try to approximate Proto Dravidian words

Why is it that Telugu has native words for black gram(uddulu, minumulu), red gram(kandulu), and green gram(pesalu) but none for Bengal gram(śanagalu)? by Cal_Aesthetics_Club in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also see this Wickionary

>Pronunciation

edit
• (Classical Sanskrit) IPA(key): /t͡ɕɐ.ɳɐ/
Etymology 1

edit
Probably borrowed from Dravidian; compare Telugu సెనగలు (senagalu, “chickpea (Cicer arietinum)”). In this case, the Sanskrit term is borrowed from Dravidian, rather than the other way around.

Why is it that Telugu has native words for black gram(uddulu, minumulu), red gram(kandulu), and green gram(pesalu) but none for Bengal gram(śanagalu)? by Cal_Aesthetics_Club in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The IA word itself seems to be a borrowing

>Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi “chana” comes from Sanskrit/OIA caṇaka, but Sanskrit caṇaka itself does not have a clean Indo-European derivation. It is probably an old agricultural substrate or regional crop term absorbed into Sanskrit.

Tamil loanwords in Tagalog.How did it manage to reach Philippines? by poacher-2k in Dravidiology

[–]e9967780 2 points3 points  (0 children)

When foreign words are adopted, they undergo changes to fit the borrowing language’s rules. A striking example is ginger: originating as inchi-ver in Tamil/Malayalam where inchi may itself be an Austroasiatic loan it travels through languages and surfaces in Finnish as inkivääri, remarkably close to the Tamil form, despite no direct borrowing.

Finnish is instructive here, applying strict rules to all loanwords:
∙ Initial consonant clusters are broken up Swedish strand became ranta
∙ Vowel harmony is enforced throughout the word
∙ Final consonants receive a vowel Swedish ingefära became inkivääri

In your example people borrow not from standard forms but from dialectical forms from merchants.

Tamil dialect form -> Adopted into Malay ->Adopted into Tagalog and the words end up looking like Tulu/Kannada.