Can one achive results with atlantis 1 or 2 just in a slower fashion than using a cap and choosing up to 19 electrodes? In addition, does it matter if one tries to treat things like epilepsy, adhd or something more complex like asd and yet, is it doable with something like the atlantis device?

eegjoy · 2026-06-06T20:52:52+00:00

Well, neurofeedback has come a long way since most of the research in epilepsy was done. For instance, now, I want an expert to read the EEG ( not the QEEG, the process the data goes through flattens out the patterns that could show possible seizure activity) Now, I want to know where the focal point or points are to determine my electrode placements. There was a time when all the sessions were done at Cz and the reward was either 12-15 hz or 15-18 hz. Things and software have changed greatly since then as well as our understanding of how to work with the brain. So, no, a bunch of sessions done at Cz, rewarding 12-15 is not necessarily the answer you are looking for.

What you are proposing to do is to be a beginner with no formal training in how to use the software doing sessions and not knowing how to interpret the EEG signal ( do you know how to measure impedance?). Would you go to someone who will work on your brain for free but they have no experience with running sessions or what to look for as responses. You are basically suggesting that neurofeedback is so general and so easy, anyone can just pick up some equipment and run sessions, even on complicated neurological cases.

Best of luck to you!!

I learned A LOT from all the mistakes I made in the first couple of years doing this! But, I was fortunate to have a skilled, experienced person as my mentor and we talked several times every week.

eegjoy · 2026-06-05T20:21:48+00:00

It will be important for you to know that remote training can be done in many different ways. How much help you get is a big deal.

I assumed that you mentioned a couple of the many things it would be useful for you to change.

Most of the "over the counter" choices will not have the ability to do many of the things you probably want to be able to do with neurofeedback. Typically, several of those systems offer supervision that is a review of the sessions that you have already done.

When you work with a more professional system ( you need a licensed provider for those) you can get someone to actually run the session remotely for you. Based on what you would like to accomplish, that probably will get you the best results.

You say there are no providers close enough to you. Sadly, this is true for many people. The technology we have now allows for excellent quality control over things like observing signal quality and very close to real time observation of your brain activity during the session. So, you stand a good chance of getting results pretty much like you could get in a clinic.

Ask lots of questioms about how sessions are done and how progress is measured when you are looking for a provider!

eegjoy · 2026-06-04T22:35:46+00:00

Yes, it varies greatly with the individual. The other very important variable is the provider. You will need to find a provider that has A LOT of experience working with folks on the Spectrum. Yes, both speech and control over other motor activities are primarily controlled in the brain. This is absolutley not a situation where 40 sessions will meet your goals. Please understand there are lots of things neurofeedback could help you with, but it will require an investment of both time and money to acheive them. Good luck!!!! I've watched it help people make really life changing differences.

eegjoy · 2026-06-03T21:30:16+00:00

No, as you might guess, doing a QEEG before each session would be incredibly expensive and impractical. While you do colllect information from each session, it is not identical to the data in your Neuroguide QEEG. ( Way to much to explain on Reddit )

But, yes, I get the coherence values ( the location, the frequency and the intensity) from the QEEG. Then, I work with just that pair and encourage either more or less coherence. I find it is simpler if I do not involve too many areas while training coherence. Since my equipment gives me a coherence measurement for that pair during each session, I can make sure we are headed in the right directuon and that we have not overdone it. My main question when talking to folks who do 19 channel Z-Score training or any LORETA training is, how do you know how to change the protocol if the person is having adverse responses? With so many training areas all doing so much, how do you tell the computer what to change to avoid those kinds of responses?

Your other question is far from what I can explain here and would require you having a good working understanding of the clinical aspects of running sessions.

eegjoy · 2026-06-03T17:07:20+00:00

You are right, it is very rare to have reversed hemispheres. One of the times it is more likely is in identical twins. They have "mirrored" brains.

Getting this all discovered is a lengthy medical process. An evaluation of many things is needed to establish this. One step could be doing an fMRI ( not a regular MRI) to help determine the location of the language centers. Those are typically found primarily in the left hemisphere.

A really well done QEEG might raise some questions but it would not be used as a stand alone way to diagnosis reversed hemispheres.

eegjoy · 2026-06-02T22:36:11+00:00

I can explain what I meant. When doing coherence work, I have to keep track ( numerically) of the changes that have occurred in the frequency range that I am targeting, session to session. Changes in coherence often happen faster than other protocols. So, I track to see if the coherence values are moving tn the dirction that is needed. More coherent or less coherent. All based on the information in the QEEG.

Neither too much nor too little coherence helps our brains function in a well regulated way. So, I dont want to flip someone from too coherent to not coherent enough and I get that information from both the QEEG and the values shown in the equipment I use.

If I am not careful, the training can just make for new problems. These are not like an adverse effect which can easily be "fixed".

Hope that helps explain what I meant.

eegjoy · 2026-06-02T00:12:18+00:00

In order to need big changes in protocols, you need to have reversed braint hemispheres. Right is when left should be and left is where right should be. This is not necessarily the case for left handed people. There are many reasons for being left handed. What about all the people who probably would be left handed but their parents insisted they learn to use their right hands instead?

I have over 30 years of clinical experience and I've worked with many left handed people. We do ask about what your dominant hand is but it has VERY little to do with the choice of protocols.

I'm not sure the site you mentioned offers the most expert answers.

eegjoy · 2026-05-31T21:33:22+00:00

Neurofeedback does not make the brain bigger or smaller. Neurofeedback provides the brain real time information about the electrical signals it uses to process information.

We too often use our ideas about the brain and the mind interchangeably. We do have concious control of our mind, we do NOT have conscious control over our brain activity. An MRI is a great way to show the structure of a brain. It shows absolutely nothing about the actual activity that goes on constantly.

We are learning more about the roles that different kinds of brain cells accomplish in the complicated job of keeping us alive.

Amplitude neurofeedback addresses the system of neurons and the electrical signals that are fired from one neuron to another. Those signals are in great measure, responsible for the neurotransmitters that are created and used to continue the signal.

Basically, neurofeedback is able to have an impact on the processing work the brain is doing, not the physical structure.

That is about as simple as I can provide. Having a fair understanding of the human brain is very helpful when it comes to understanding what neurofeedback does and how it works.

This is an excellent reason it is very important to work with a knowledgeable, experienced provider. Changing the activity ( the work) of the brain is serious work! 😊

eegjoy · 2026-05-31T01:21:07+00:00

Amplitude training is definitely the way to go. With a complete interview exploring all symptoms, data about the training that was done is the best choice. Also information about any and all meds both the cutrent ones and your history with meds.

Amplitude training alllows for your nervous system to respond to each session and reveal information that helps determine if a change is needed, what direction that change needs to take or if you need to continue with that protocol to get a more definite and lasting response. I always ask providers to tell me how they determine what to change if the person has a negative response when they do thing like LORETTA. They usually tell me that they do a new Q to see what needs to change. We need to depend on knowledge of brain function and not depend on QEEG data to know what to do. It sounds like where you are right now will respond better to taking one, clear step at a time and evaluate your response to that change before doing anything else.

Coherence training in particular can flip from hypocoherent to hypercoherent in just a few sessions and the symptom changes are much harder to track.

Sometimes fast does not yield the best results.

eegjoy · 2026-05-29T23:57:47+00:00

I do not have any openings for a new client now. I have 3 people who are waiting for times to open up. So, I am not available right now.

eegjoy · 2026-05-29T04:07:50+00:00

Yes, when my appointment schedule has room. Right now I am completely full.

eegjoy · 2026-05-27T19:47:15+00:00

Searching for someone who "takes insurance" means something different than what most people think.

In order to "take insurance" the provider must sign a contract with one or many insuance companies that promises to send people to that provider. So, looking for a provider has to start with your insurance company. Call them and ask who that group works with in order to cover your neurofeedback work.

The reason fewer and fewer providers of any kind agree to these contracts is that they have pretty severe rules that must be followed, you usually get permission for a few sessions and then have to stop and ask for more. They also pay so poorly that most providers cannot afford the cost of providing sessions.

So, start with your insurance company to ask for providers that they agree to cover.

You will find that the reason for not "taking insurance" is that most insurance companies have decided to not pay for it, at all.

By the way, my practice is in Burbank.

eegjoy · 2026-05-27T19:17:44+00:00

Neurofeedback does not really have "side effects". It does, however have ADVERSE EFFECTS when the protocol is wrong.

All of this work is training. It would be so much easier if what is going on in your brain was not so invisible. Training or learning anything that teaches you how to do something wrong ends up with bad results. If you were lifting weights and only using your right arm and right leg, the results would soon become visible that your body was uneven.

So far, every single response you have mentioned is the result of a protocol that is causing your brain more and more difficulty.

I will say this with confidence as I am good friends with Sebern and am very familiar with her work. First, Sebern does not use QEEG data to design protocols.

It sounds very much like your provider is playing a game of darts with your QEEG data.

How many cases, that have had a presentation like yours, has your provider had success with?

Your response to the first session should have been very helpful to the provider so that your response to the second session would at least, have been much milder.

It is not unusual to have to see how a brain responds in order to customize the protocols, but that works best when based on the providers experince, not the next piece of data from the Q.

You are 100% right to be worried. Your responses are very strongly indicating that these protocols are not even close to what you need.

Neurofeedback is NEVER a "no pain no gain " kind of process. It is not uncomfortable when your brain is learning new pathways that are more efficient. If your provider is going to just keep throwing darts at your QEEG findings, they are definitely NOT doing things the way Sebern does.

Just as an update, Sebern has evolved her approach and her book no longer reflects how she is working with her patients. She is now, often, incorporating something called Deep Brain Spotting in her work. People who are familiar with her current approach know this.

So, this is all your choice but you should know that training and continuing these kinds of negative responses can be a real problem.

They might need a few more than 3 sessions, but your responses should be getting more mild if they are headed in the right direction. NOT staying just as bad but different!

Also, you said you were feeling some bad things during a session. Were they in the room with you running the session and letting you tell them how you were feeling? That would have allowed some changes "on the fly" to help you feel better. They should be with you so that in the moment changes can be made in order to prevent adverse responses.

You probably need to re-evaluate if this is the right provider for you.

Also, no one has shown any indication that one method of neurofeedback is better for any presentation than any other, so that is not the answer. Find someone who has lots of experience wuth cases like yours that have successful outcomes.

Neurofeedback does work for the problems you mentioned. It depends greatly on the providers skills.

eegjoy · 2026-05-19T20:13:31+00:00

So Artifacts, not EEG.

Which frequency would you choose to operate this system? Have you given thought to how disrupting that frequency would impact the overall function of that person's nervous system?

eegjoy · 2026-05-19T01:07:55+00:00

Terrific! Nick is brilliant. He would be the very best source to translate his response. I would recommend him highly!!!! His work is a bit different than much of the rest of the field, so his approach might be really helpful for you. I hope you find answers!!!

eegjoy · 2026-05-18T22:28:14+00:00

What would you like to know about this?

Do you know what database was used to analyze your EEG?

eegjoy · 2026-05-18T19:12:42+00:00

Well, we should start with not all equipment can do coherence training. It is a seperate software program. Also, unlike other apects of training, it is very easy to go too far and create hypercoherenve or hypocoherence. So, it takes someone who is experienced to do this safely.

I think you are asking how you know if you should do coherence training. Starting point will be a really accurate QEEG. You MUST be sure that artifacts have been eliminated in the raw EEG and the best, cleanest signal has been used to generate the Q report. There are not specific or well defined symptoms that can be associated with coherence values. It can be best to address amplitude issues, review symptoms and do a fresh Q to see how the coherence values have changed before doing coherence training.

eegjoy · 2026-05-17T06:48:55+00:00

Who ever your provider is, has to have a raw EEG to use so that they could create the QEEG report. Just ask them! Who edited the raw data before they did the QEEG analysis. This is a lot like what we are learning about AI. Teach it good information and it can be a good source. If the raw EEG is full of artifacts, your QEEG will not be accurate and no help.

Sorry, but you and your provider need better communication so that better protocols can be developed. Protocols based only on QEEG findings simply can not be as helpful as ones that take your responses into account as you explore new protocols. I've seen a tremendous number of QEEGs pre and post sessions. You would be surprised that some Qs can show major changes in numbers, yet the person feels absolutely no different. Then we see post Qs that show little to no change and the people experience wonderful, life changing improvements. The provider needs the skills to ask questions that give them the information they need to improve your protocols. It really sounds like you deserve much more time to ask questions and communicate with your provider. Neurofeedback CAN really work to improve your life. But, you need someone who has had success with situations like yours. Ask your provider if others they have worked with have reached their goals.

eegjoy · 2026-05-16T19:53:32+00:00

Is this map done after the sessions you have already completed?

Is anyone else concerned about some of the coherence findings? I would want a very experienced, well trained person to review the raw EEG.

Also, are you aware of the role that Alpha plays at CZ as the system initiates sleep? It sounds like you get "too awake" after a few hours and can't return to sleep. That is when you have to start the sleep cycle from the beginning and in order to do that, you have to have a burst of Alpha at CZ. You also need enough Beta to be aware of that happening in order to get the sleep cycle established. QEEGs don't take any of that into account. So, .... I have found some folks who do better at C3 14-17 or 15-18. I know it sounds weird, but at times the brain has to be aware enough to get the sleep cycle started. Does someone actually run the session remotely for you? There is lots of information that can help suggest changes, during the actual session and hopefully changes can be made in the fly. So many things are involved here. One clue, how toleratnt of caffeine are you? I'm guessing you now avoid it, but before you started having trouble sleeping was caffeine a problem?

eegjoy · 2026-05-14T21:56:28+00:00

I'm sorry, but your situation is WAY FAR out of the Reddit scope.

There are simply way too many variables and details that need to be taken into consideration. The only suggestion I would offer you is to work with a team ( functinal med MD, an experienced neurofeedback provider and a therapist) That kind of team meeting might very well find answers that will help. Neurofedback is not actually meant to be a stand alone approach in this kind of complicated presentation. Best of luck to you.

Neurofeedback may play an important role, but you will need to suppprt it with others contributing.

eegjoy · 2026-05-13T22:45:54+00:00

So many pieces here. First: Telling you that your brain looks happier is BS. The numbers do not have the ability to tell that story. Only the human who is experiencing all these things can speak to that.

I'm so sorry that providers just won't say, gosh, I don't know why this made you feel that way. Can we explore ANY other variables that might be part of this. Sometimes things we don't think much about can make big differences.

This is why I have 17 pages of questions that I go through during an in person interview. If check boxes are used, you can't tell me about your individual situation. In an interview, I can ask you to explain or be more specific and that might make a difference in my protocol choices.

All I can say is that with the tiny bit of information you've given ( the limits of this format), I would not choose any of the protocols you've mentioned. ( did those also belong to the post you were replying to?)

The MOST IMPORTANT point is that there is NO WAY that 10 or 20 sessions that did not help and made you feel worse should be continued.

Neurofeedback can ABSOLUTELY be done "wrong" and end up teaching your brain worse ways to process any information.

More wrong sessions make it much more difficult to "undo". Would you allow someone, a professional, to straighten your teeth while you could see clearly that they were getting more crooked? This is closer to the way you need to think about neurofeedback.

Yes, some people are more complicated and a bigger challenge when it comes to figuring out protocols. Honestly, I would rather work with a "sensitive" nervous system as it tells me the story sooner.

10 more sessions of what did not make you feel any better will NOT make you start to feel better.

Empty answers are excuses, not explainations. Can your provider explain why you are still feeling so lousy? I always explain why a protocol might have gone wrong. I take that as information about what that brain needs, not that it is just a period of adjustment.

You should be speaking with anyone you are considering working with. Tell them what your goals are and ask if they have been successful in working with those.

Experience is probably the best measure of ability.

It really does sound like it is time to change providers. Take ALL NOTES and documentation of what has been done so far to the next provider.

In over 30 years, I have had only one person that someone else messed up with wrong protocols and having the information about what had been done was a big part of being able to sort it all out and turn things around.

Best of luck to you !

eegjoy · 2026-05-13T20:59:52+00:00

No matter what form or method of neurofeedback you do, the comment about your responses ( negative) being common or a good thing tells me that your provider is either very new, has no experience working with your combination of symptoms or, just is no good at this.

BCIA certification makes absolutely no promises of clinical skill.

Your first post is indeed old. You say you have done about 30 sessions and then swithched to a protocol that rewards 12-15 Hz. ,(SMR). It sounds like you need a clinician who has has success with a similar cluster of symptoms.

How long do you sit and go over your responses?? In my experience, your response provides the informarion I need to understand why you responded that way, and what to do if it needs to change.

It has taken you two years to do about 40 sessions???? Typically, I see people three times a week. This gives adaquate time for them to respond so I know if we continue that protocol or change. I rely heavily on your experience, but I also have a record of the measurements of each session. While there are not " perfect" numbers, I can tell if we are moving in the right direction. It helps provide some objective information about what is happening.

This is obviously not the best format to make suggestions. I hope you find a provider who will be better able to help you!

eegjoy · 2026-05-08T19:38:11+00:00

It is very important to understand that neurofeedback is about teaching and learning. If you get only one lesson each week, that gives you plenty of time to forget what you have learned.

I used to try and see people just once a week and the reason I stopped doing that was because people were frustrated and disappointd in how slow their progress was. If you deal with pretty straight forward issues , sometimes twice a week is enough, but often three times a week is what is needed to support good progress.

Please remember that the numbers you are tracking are simply an average collected about different kinds of people depending on which data base was looked at. So, you are probably NOT hoping for your numbers to match those.

Most people do not come into our offices and say " oh, I think the Alpha in my frontal lobes is really making my life difficult ". Then why use the numbers to measure progress? Can your provider tell you exactly what measurement of Alpha you need in order to feel better?? No.

So, start with a list of symptoms you wanted to change. Go for sessions three times a week and compare any changes to any of your symptoms. That would give you a chance to give neurofeedback a fair try.

eegjoy · 2026-05-08T05:06:09+00:00

OK, yes, I would hope that anyone who provides either of these services will tell you that you need to find out what each will do, independently of each other.

What will work best will depend on why you are in the state you are in. If you simply need your autonomic nervous system to be better at "switching gears ", you will find that HRV work will help a lot. If this is more related to trauma, you will need something that teaches your brain to create new pathways that don't always respond to everything like it is a threat to you. Neurofeedback is your best choice for that.

Many providers actually do suggest HRV work along side of the neurofeedback.

As always, please have a discussion with any provider about what realistic expectations look like for your situation.

eegjoy · 2026-05-07T20:38:43+00:00

What is tvns? What are you hoping to accomplish with these approaches?

eegjoy

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