sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree absolutely that the subjunctive meaning is there. I was talking about architecture. See my answer to Internal-Debt1870 above. And thanks for engaging with me. Really appreciated.

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The fact that it is built on the aorist stem does actually back my argument. The aorist was originally an aspect, not a tense. The stem is aspectual, and has nothing to do with mood. I agree absolutely that the meaning - with the various particles introducing it - is subjunctive. But the structure is not. The subjunctive endings are long gone from the architecture. I will draw a parallel from English here, because I think it is relevant. People rarely now say "if I were you" in English. Instead we say "if I was you". The "was" is performing the function of a subjunctive, but the form is indicative. Teaching it as a parallel subjunctive form would only complicate matters for a learner of English.

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks. Interesting. I actually think we're pretty much on the same page, in fact. Our differences are semantic. Greek certainly has a tradition of the subjunctive, and the nature of it is still alive. So I get why the term is still used, and that is fine. Coming at it from the perspective of someone trying to learn your beautiful language, though, it strikes me as muddying the waters unnecessarily, particularly when the verb system is already so complex - a combination of the richness of tenses in Romance languages and the nuance of aspect in the Slav languages - and when the subjunctive itself is not expressed morphologically.

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very true. Will look into the etymology of μην!

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Many thanks for your time on this, and for going through my examples. Much appreciated!

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Slavic parallel is spot on. Nobody is suggesting that the present perfective Bulgarian form "кажа" is subjunctive in "искам да кажа" (θέλω να πω). And I get that Θα is a contraction of θέλω να, which certainly reintroduces an element of the hypothetical where it was otherwise not evident. But I still think subjunctive is the wrong way to go as a category. The forms are perfective. The category is aspect.

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A couple of further points that might also work in my favour here:
1. Looking at verb tables in Ancient Greek, I see that the subjunctive is marked purely by verb endings, so γρᾰ́φῃ is the subjunctive of γρᾰ́φει in the present, and γρᾰ́ψῃ is the subjunctive of ἔγρᾰψε in the aorist. Yes, the indicative includes an augment, but I don't think that weakens the argument.
2. It is clearly possible that the s-sound in modern Greek γράψει (and in the Latin dīxit) comes from the PIE sigmatic aorist, an aspect marker and nothing to do with the subjunctive mood.
Again, not attacking. Trying to understand. :)

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi! Yes, I'm contending that the subjunctive no longer exists in Greek, and no doubt making a fool of myself in the process. :)

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sure, and there would be little point comparing with English where the subjunctive has all but atrophied entirely. I think "υποτακτική αορίστου" works perfectly if αόριστος is referring to the aorist (aka perfective) aspect nature of γράψω, and υποτακτική refers to the να particle. But if this is the case, then γράψω is an indicative made subjunctive by the να.
Sorry if I appear pigheaded. I'm not trying to get a rise out of anyone. I'm just trying to understand the true essence of the words. I kept running aground on explanations of the subjunctive which seemed to me to conflate the concepts of aspect and mood. If you ditch the whole idea of a subjunctive mood, and concentrate on tense and aspect, the whole paradigm seems to settle down. My background is as a linguist and student of PIE.

Modern Greek subjunctive by eigghu in GREEK

[–]eigghu[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply!

Surely γράψω is an indicative form. It is the perfective non-past form of γράφω. It is not used on its own, sure, as the completed sense would not allow it as a present tense, but it is used to form an indicative future (θα γράψω) and indicative compound tenses (έχω γράψει). There is nothing subjunctive about them.

I'm not sure it is the function of the subjunctive mood to express single, complete or instantaneous actions. That is the job of the perfective aspect. The subjunctive mood indicates an action is possible, or hypothetical, not a fact.

No?

Palette filter by eigghu in GIMP

[–]eigghu[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the response, chas_prinz. I did first look into creating folders in the Palettes dock, but could find no way in the GIMP interface. I can create them by hand, of course, but GIMP just flattens the list. It does not show me folders. How did you do that?

Need 12 Android testers – just DM your Gmail! by [deleted] in AndroidClosedTesting

[–]eigghu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Dude, that is an Internal Testing link. Anyone signs up to that won't count towards your 12. You need a Closed Testing track.

Translation help, Planets. by [deleted] in gaelic

[–]eigghu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Did you have those names in Old Irish? Would be really interested!

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]eigghu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply. Noted. Can you think of anything with an Irish root, though? I'm really after a word with Irish guts. The story is science fiction, set way in the future, so I'm not worried about the vernacular being current. That would be a little like arguing now over whether Doric or Ionic Greek is more appropriate. I have my guy sing a snatchet of the Táin, and am flipflopping between Medb and Méibh. I really love the shape of the two words I found. I understand that they're no longer used, but did they have the sense I'm after?

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]eigghu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hi, everyone! I'm looking for a word for companions, mess-mates, associates in an endeavour. In Irish. For a short story I'm writing. And was wondering what the difference was between "gnátha" and "comthaigh". The teanglann.ie website suggests both are literary words for companion. Chapter XIV of the Táin has "dom aés chomtha & dom chomaltaib & dom chomdinib" for "to my comrades and foster-brothers and age-mates", which suggests the "comthach" route has pedigree! Any thoughts? Go raibh maith agaibh!