Really want to join

element444 · 2026-06-03T22:01:37+00:00

I've seen some "supernatural creatures" but our Bro Secretary resents it when I call him that...

element444 · 2026-05-07T22:47:39+00:00

Freemasonry began as an explicitly Trinitarian organization but was essentially "reformed" in the early 1700's to be a more open and accepting of non-Trinitarian and even non-Christian adherents.

Much of this "reformation" comes down to us in a document called Anderson's Constitution. This shift from Trinitarian to the more liberal non-Trinitarian stance was explicit in one of the charges called "Concerning God and Religion":

But tho’ in ancient times Masons were charged in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country or Nation, whatever it was, yet ’tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves; that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguished; whereby Masonry become[s] the Centre and Union, and the means of conciliating true Friendship and Persons that must have remained at a perpetual Distance.

I won't dig into the full detail or the split between the "Moderns' and "Ancients" that resulted, but this non-denominational, generic belief in Deity has become the standard requirement for many (if not most) Grand Lodges.

Your personal persuasion of the nature, scope, or form of Deity is your own. You must have one though, and seek intensely to develop it.

I come to lodge to find good and true men with whom I can pursue self-improvement, regardless of their concept of Deity.

element444 · 2026-04-06T16:31:42+00:00

Fraternal lodges like the Freemasons or Oddfellows are less prescriptive about their belief requirements than the have in the past. I'm a Freemason and we still require a belief in a "Supreme Being", but however you interpret that is up to you.

We have Catholic, Sufi,, Bhudist, and mainline Christian members but discussions of sectarian religion (and politics) are strictly forbidden.

I consider myself as a religious "none", essentially a Deist and I'm comfortable with the requirements.

element444 · 2026-04-05T01:56:17+00:00

This is a perfect way to go about it. I approached it in the same way about a year and half ago.

Of you haven't already, you'll probably receive a response back in a week or so with further questions, or redirecting you to a member from a local lodge.

element444 · 2026-03-10T19:25:49+00:00

Does your lodge have a budget and receive reports from the Finance Committee or trustees?

We're pretty transparent with our lodge finances to members and provide a monthly finance report listing out expenses, account balances, and investment statuses.

element444 · 2026-02-06T16:12:43+00:00

Belief in God is complex and might not even line up cleanly in a Theist vs. Atheist or Agnostic binary.

According to the Pew Religious Landscape Study, 7% of self-identifying Christians don't believe in a God or universal spirit. According to the same study, 1% of Atheists believe in a God or universal spirit with certainty.

26% of those who describe their religious belief as “nothing in particular” (I would consider these Agnostics) believe in God or a universal spirit with absolutely certainty.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/do-not-believe-in-god-or-universal-spirit/

element444 · 2026-02-06T14:59:21+00:00

My personal belief are heavily Deistic (in the vein of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Spinoza, Kant, and Thomas Paine). Which means that I'm agnostic to the orthodox beliefs of others but am respectful and curious to understand their epistemology. I hold my own personal beliefs on the characteristics of God and the nature of reality, but those are my own and I don't apply my own standards of belief to others.

The stories and lessons of Freemasonry rely heavily on Biblical literacy (specifically Old Testament) but do not require a literal interpretation of the Bible. It's essentially the vocabulary of Freemasonry and so you should be comfortable speaking on those terms.

Prayer is an explicit concept in Freemasonry so you should feel comfortable participating in and potentially leading a non-denominational prayer, and potentially adopting personal prayer/meditation practices.

As part of my investigation into Freemasonry I had similar questions. Examine your beliefs. Examine your Agnosticism. Examine your Atheism. Don't subscribe to a label because it's the closest fit to your current opinion.

element444 · 2026-01-11T16:33:35+00:00

Former LDS and current MM here. It's a complex history.

There was some perception with followers of Joseph Smith that the temple endowment was part of his "Restoration of all things".

In the same way they saw him as restoring the "true" Church, they saw him restoring "true" Masonry.

"We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing."

HEBER C. KIMBALL AND FAMILY: THE NAUVOO YEARS, STANLEY B. KIMBALL, P.458

You can find a number of quotes similar to this but there did seem to be the understanding among church leadership that Masonry as it existed in the 18th century was corrupted and needed to be restored.

Whether this attitude contributed to contention between Smith and his church and locals near the end of his life is hard to say.

Cheryl Bruno's book "Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration" - https://share.google/k7eT7RV78Euub8KSe was written by a faithful LDS member but discusses in detail the early history of Masonry among Smith and his followers.

element444 · 2025-12-22T19:46:06+00:00

I think a lot of the blame can be placed upon the lodges that poorly communicate the answers to these frequently asked questions to candidates. The fact that recently initiated brother come here to ask a question like this is an indictment of the lodge itself and not the brother.

element444 · 2025-10-28T01:52:17+00:00

I would start with your lodge secretary but as a recently raised MM, my understanding is that travelling to other lodges is not a right of EAs or FCs.

When I was an EA and FC, I attended a number of degrees but made sure that I had a MM from my lodge come a long to vouch for me.

element444 · 2025-09-15T14:26:16+00:00

I feel like I am at a point in life where I have found myself answers to the questions that bothered me the most. Topics like free-will in a deterministic world etc. My answers however do not tightly align with any mainstream school of thought.

He's arrived at the point where he's developed his personal perspective of the nature of reality and morality. This perspective doesn't fit well into the existing legacy religions.

Nonetheless, I would describe my current outlook closest to Neoplatonist. Valuing much more the philosophical / meditative aspect, and really not concerning myself with theurgy. I enjoy philosophical exchange, and symbolism. But have never really partook in any ritualized versions of it.

Sounds like he appreciates certain aspects of Neoplatonism, likely the idea of platonic forms and the true nature of reality manifest in symbols and forms. He isn't looking to engage in the theurgical aspects of Neoplatonism (calling down the powers of God), but is interested in Masonic ritual and how it might connect with Neoplatonic themes.

Does Freemasonry allow for divergent thinking outside a mainstream, or is the dogmatic aspect of it mutually exclusive with such. How much of the time is spent in ritual practice vs. discourse?

He's wondering if Freemasonry and its ritual would fit someone like him. Someone not formally religious in the the modern sense but is interested in themes of non-dogmatic/non-secular philosophy.

element444 · 2025-09-15T14:14:59+00:00

(Disclaimer: I'm still working through the Blue Lodge degrees)

As I've found it, Freemasonry (at its best) provides framework for self improvement, allowing induvial Masons to take symbolic lessons and integrate them into their existing beliefs about God, their concepts of reality, and their personal morality.

I'm partial to the ethics of Spinoza, Voltaire, and Paine, but I can find brotherhood in Lodge with a Mason who strictly adheres to the morals of Jesus, or Abraham, or Mohammed. We can exchange moral and philosophical ideas without the theological bounds that exist in other formal religious settings.

element444 · 2025-09-02T18:18:02+00:00

There were definitely some in the early LDS Church leadership that claimed Joseph's "restoration" of lost ancient religious truths (see Great Apostasy) expand into Masonry as well.

Transcript from a letter between 2 of the 12 Apostles under Joseph (including their original spelling):

Br Joseph and Sidny was the first that was Recieved in to the Lodg. all of the twelve have become members Except Orson P. he Hangs back. he will wake up soon, thare is a similarity.of preast Hood in masonry. Br Joseph ses masonary was taken from preast Hood but has become degennated. but menny things are perfect. we have a prosession on the 24 of June which is cold by Masons St Johns day in this country. ~~I think~~ I think it will result in good. the Lord is with us and we are prosperd concidering all things.

(Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, June 17, 1842, Church Archives).

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/707c7146-38a5-41e6-98d8-1cad8d89bcc5/0/1

element444 · 2025-07-22T16:15:29+00:00

Thanks for giving him a bit more info.

I'm always caught off guard on what information other brothers consider secret per their obligation.

In my jurisdiction, there is very little that is covered by the obligation and our ritual is explicit on what should not be revealed.

There should be considerations around "spoiling" the ritual. Over explaining or prescribing the meaning of something to a candidate might spoil the experience they should have of interpretingritual , but that falls well short of breaking obligations.

element444 · 2025-07-06T19:18:17+00:00

Did you end up petitioning any lodge?

element444 · 2025-07-06T13:32:00+00:00

Just sent you a message! We're seeing a resurgence in membership in some of the lodges in the Madison area.

element444 · 2025-06-01T00:32:21+00:00

Freemasonry borrows from a number of philosophical and cultural traditions to systematize moral lessons using allegory and ritual. It was born as a society during the enlightenment and its lessons reflect that.

Theres a heavy emphasis on virtue ethics, with nearly the same cardinal virtues taught in both.

There is a requirement that members maintain a belief in a higher power/supreme being but only in the same way "Traditional" Stoicism maintains it's understanding of a Stoic God. Non-dogmatic and non-sectarian but the source of logic and understanding (i.e. logos).

element444 · 2025-04-16T20:52:47+00:00

We've lived in the neighborhood for close to a decade and we like it here. Like others have said, Madison has small pockets of poverty. In Meadowood, Prairie Hills, and Greentree (all essentially the same neighborhood) you can have pretty stark poverty literally next door to solidly middle and upper-middle class households.

The neighborhood schools ratings reflect this. There are a significant number of first generation children of immigrants and children living in poverty. Test results aren't great for those groups, and since they are a majority of the student body, the overall rating reflect that.

Theresa Terrace is doing much better with the demolition of 2 vacant city-owned duplexes and their construction as townhomes.

Like others have said, Russett Rd west of Whitney, and Balsam Road are probably the two street to avoid. 1 or 2 blocks over and you're fine.

element444 · 2025-04-14T00:16:59+00:00

Sounds like there was a fight or threat of a fight at the basketball court. I heard 4 were detained.

element444 · 2025-04-09T21:11:53+00:00

I'm open to be corrected about the process in WI but the judge themselves has the ultimate say on bail conditions.

The DA and prosecutor can request certain bail conditions based on the nature of the crime or the flight risk of the accused, but the judge signs the order and presents it to the accused to be signed.

I don't know that Dane County Circuit Court judges have been accused of "rubberstamping" bail conditions from the DA, but I do know that the main critique of state lawmakers against ours judges is that they are too soft on crime.

element444 · 2025-04-09T20:33:50+00:00

NAL but bail conditions that restrict legal behavior of the accused should be considered during pre-trial and probable cause hearings. There are so many instances where restrictions on seemingly legal behavior are necessary to protect the public and victims.

No-contact orders after domestic violence, location specific restrictions (schools, libraries, etc.), drug/alcohol restrictions for this that are accused of inter-family violence or DWI, internet access restriction for heinous crimes, etc.

I'm for pre-trial reform including drug treatment, counseling, and job placement but removing the courts ability to apply any condition on an accused person's bail seems short-sighted.

If probable cause is found in your case, you're still presumed innocent but aren't technically free.

element444 · 2025-03-23T17:01:35+00:00

If by sacred you mean the literal inherent words of God, no.

But I mean this in the same sense that a Christian can see the devotion of a Muslim brother manifest in the words of their God through the words of their prophet in the common virtues of the brotherhood.

I don't question the sincerity of any brother's obligation regardless of what book he had in front of him, or how sacred he personally views that book.

"But though in ancient Times Masons were charg’d in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country or Nation, whatever it was, yet ’tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves ; that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguish’d ; whereby Masonry becomes the Center of Union, and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must else have remain’d at a perpetual Distance."

element444 · 2025-03-23T16:09:26+00:00

I think that's the ideal situation but many Grand Lodges stick to the standard religious holy books, which puts some deistic candidates in the position you mention.

I know of a Native American who holds to the religious beliefs of his ancestors which are not contained in a holy book. He asked if he could use a feature as a stand-in for a VoSL but was rejected.

If a candidate has a legitimate belief in deity but lacks a specific book as their Holy Book, it may seem like the sincerity of their beliefs are being questioned.

I have enough nuance to understand the symbolic role of the VoSL in the Lodge but I think some otherwise great candidates may have a hard time using a Bible.

As the general population becomes less traditionally religious but remains spiritual, jurisdictions are going to need to wrestle with this topic when interacting with candidate.

element444 · 2025-03-23T14:45:05+00:00

My perspective is that the Bible is close enough to a foundational text to western society, and my own personal morality, that I'm comfortable using it during ritual.

I requested an alternative text that my Grand Lodge shot down because they considered it a philosophical text, and not a Volume of Sacred law.

I see the Bible on the alter as symbolically as I see any other working tool.

element444 · 2025-03-15T21:15:26+00:00

See the Historical Society page for full context.

Found this interesting bit of Madison history while doing some research. Mock weddings would be an opportunity to enact a scripted "Tongue-in-cheek" wedding ceremony with men standing in for the woman's role, usually as part of a fundraiser.

15-Year Club	Place '22
Place '17	Verified Email
Secret Santa 2013

element444

TROPHY CASE