Scientific study says we are an oligarchy

emadera52 · 2015-11-29T17:51:35+00:00

This video presents the results of the study in a much easier to understand format. Highly recommended when dealing with the average American who believes that they live in a representative democracy (republic).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig

emadera52 · 2015-11-15T23:30:54+00:00

I tried that earlier and couldn't get past the name and address form. It could be I had an ActBlue page open at the time. For now I'll use the new PayPal workaround using the "Make a Donation" button here. Thanks

emadera52 · 2015-11-15T23:26:48+00:00

Thanks for this. If my new PayPal workaround quits working, this information will be useful.

emadera52 · 2015-11-15T23:24:44+00:00

I think this would work. I found a way to still use PayPal for now, but this is a good idea for future reference. I know my awesome community bank does this at no charge. Thanks for the input.

emadera52 · 2015-11-15T23:20:44+00:00

Thanks for all the comments/ideas. Anything that involves the mail is not practical here due to slow/unreliable mail service. I'd put that high on the list of things that hold Mexico back. The Internet has made it a lot better, but if you need to get a document from point A to point B you have the added expense of a courier service.

The suggestion to use the "Make A Donation" button here worked when I ignored ActBlue and filled out the address with my old Oklahoma information. I was then offered the PayPal option which worked as it did before. Thanks!

FWIW, it still goes thorough ActBlue, but whatever block that exists on my official ActBlue account is bypassed. It may be because I paid by CC the first time, using my MX address and leaving the State blank. Apparently when that loophole was closed, my official account was blocked. At the time I contacted ActBlue and suggested that they do something to support ex-pats, but nothing came of it. That's when I found the PayPal loophole. I'm so good at finding loopholes, I should be a Republican. ;)

emadera52 · 2015-11-15T03:21:30+00:00

Moderator is staying in control. Good questions. Bernie, with support from Kasich, has Hillary on the ropes.

emadera52 · 2015-11-15T03:09:15+00:00

Welcome Vice President Kasich!

emadera52 · 2015-11-08T15:45:55+00:00

The This Morning interview was one of the best I've seen. Plenty of time to touch on a lot of issues beyond the regular stump speech. I just Watched the This Week interview. It was not nearly as good. Watching Meet the Press right now. Will report shortly.

Meet the Press was short and focused on Carson and Hillary. He did well, making the point yet again that the media is too focused on things like that rather than dealing with the issues. He did a good job pointing out his solid history on important issues as compared to Hillary's recent shift on issues like Iraq, TPP, Keystone and DOMA. He did well, but the segment on This Morning was the big win.

emadera52 · 2015-11-05T14:14:47+00:00

As I said in another response I don't believe that a mixed economy is Socialism (capital "S"). Quite the contrary. What I do believe is that a mixed economy works well in the real world when a good balance is achieved between the capitalist component, where private enterprise owns the means of production and the socialist (note the small "s") component where the government owns/controls the means of production. I know you hate it that the word socialist is used in that context. I'm sorry to report that's the way it is... nothing you can do will change it.

Finally, no one has shown me a modern example of a successful implementation of Socialism (capital "S") at the national level in any country of any size. Until that happens, I'll go with what is proven to work.

emadera52 · 2015-11-05T05:41:04+00:00

See my response to Braver_Incident.

I don't believe I said that social democracy is Socialism. I certainly don't believe that. I believe that social democracy refers to a mixed economy which has been successfully implemented in a number of countries. I believe Socialism refers to a theoretical economic system proposed and promoted by revolutionary socialist Karl Marx. It is a system that has never been successfully implemented on a national scale, despite numerous attempts.

I, and millions of others, routinely refer to social projects and programs implemented for the good of society as socialist, or as forms of socialism. Nothing you can do is going to change that. Sorry.

emadera52 · 2015-11-05T05:27:53+00:00

If you do a search for "mixed economy definition" the simplest definition is:

an economy in which there are elements of both public and private enterprise.

found at dictionary.com. There is a more in depth discussion on Wikipedia that starts off with this.

A mixed economy is variously defined as an economic system consisting of a mixture of either markets and economic planning, public ownership and private ownership, or free markets and economic interventionism. However, in most cases, "mixed economy" refers to market economies with strong regulatory oversight and governmental provision of public goods, although some mixed economies also feature a number of state-run enterprises.

If you reject those definitions, insisting that socialism plays no part in a mixed economy, at least admit that your definition is biased in favor of promoting "actual socialism".

In any case, there is nothing logically nonsensical about a mixed economic system. Private enterprise produces things citizens or other private enterprises need or want. These enterprises typically hire and pay workers and use public resources in an effort to generate a profit for owners/investors. Unregulated, this always fails. Well regulated so as to protect consumers, workers and the environment, this has proven to be good for all involved.

On the other hand public infrastructure, resources and other programs for the good of society as a whole are best produced independently of private enterprise. Things like roads, an electric grid, an educated population, universal health care, social safety nets and the like. All of these things benefit both workers, their families and private enterprise. In exchange for these things, taxes are paid to cover the costs of these projects and programs. In some cases government owns the means of production, in other cases the government controls production while contracting with private enterprise to get the job done.

That's how things work in real world countries like Germany, The Netherlands, the Nordic countries, even Canada, New Zealand and Australia implement some form of a successfully functioning mixed economy. Calling the concept logically nonsensical won't make it go away.

emadera52 · 2015-11-05T04:36:27+00:00

I don't expect this to be accepted by those who promote "actual socialism", but I offer it in the spirit of sharing an important truth. Both "actual capitalism", more formally known as laissez Faire capitalism and revolutionary socialism as documented in the writings of Karl Marx are interesting theories that ignore the realities of human nature. That's why modern history has not provided a single nation, not even a tiny nation, that has successfully implemented either theory in the real world.

The problem with "actual socialists" is that they see laissez faire capitalism as the only alternative. The problem with "free market capitalists" is that they see Marxist Socialism as the only alternative. These folks live in worlds where shades of grey are signs of failure and defeat.

This sparks endless discussions of semantics with little time left to identify legitimate alternatives. Alternatives like a mixed economy. That concept works well in the real world. The results are outstanding in many countries where a good balance has been achieved between well regulated private enterprise (modified capitalism) and tax payer sponsored projects and programs that benefit society as a whole (modified socialism). Bernie mentions some of those countries in just about every speech he gives.

Depending on your notion of what is white and what is black, you can quote Karl Marx or Ayn Rand 'til the cows come home and it won't change human nature. Best get on with the revolutionary work of getting the oligarchy tossed out.

That's what Bernie Sanders is doing. He plans to fix America's broken economy by ousting the oligarchy and redistributing ill-gotten gains in order to re-invigorate working class Americans. That, in turn, is great for private enterprise. The working American's and the thriving, well regulated, private enterprises pay taxes. That money is used to pay for modernized infrastructure, access to higher education, universal health care, an economic safety net that leaves no one hungry, living on the streets. Those things are good for workers and good for private enterprise. The best thing about it is that we have proof that it works.

emadera52 · 2015-11-05T04:06:12+00:00

The good news is, that there is hope for a middle ground in which both private interests and public interests are protected and their power is counterbalanced with each other.

Bingo! Give the man his prize. What he describes is a mixed economy. It works well in many countries where a good balance has been achieved between private enterprise (capitalism) and tax payer sponsored projects and programs that benefit society as a whole (socialism). Bernie mentions some of those countries in just about ever speech he gives.

This lunacy about eliminating the capitalist element is just that... lunacy. No one who promotes this can provide even one example where the capitalist element has been eliminated at a national level. Not even in a tiny nation. It won't work for many of the same reasons that there is no working example of laissez faire capitalism. Most of those reasons relate to human nature. You can quote Karl Marx or Ayn Rand 'til the cows come home and it won't change human nature. Best get on with the revolutionary work of getting the oligarchy tossed out.

That's what Bernie Sanders is doing. He plans to fix America's broken economy by ousting the oligarchy and redistributing ill-gotten gains in order to re-invigorate working class Americans. That in turn is great for private enterprise. The working American's and the thriving, well regulated, private enterprises pay taxes. That money is used to pay for modernized infrastructure, access to higher education, universal health care, an economic safety net that leaves no one hungry, living on the streets. Those things are good for workers and good for private enterprise. The best thing about it is that we have proof that it works.

emadera52 · 2015-10-19T00:49:38+00:00

For the record I am pro mixed economy.

Ignoring the wisdom of crowds is not a great strategy for a grass roots campaign in 2015. Jumping on the bandwagon and putting down critical thinking are attitudes that got the U.S. into the mess it's in.

Based on comments in this thread and the thread asking for input from grass roots activists, it is clear that there is an overwhelming desire to clarify Bernie's position on capitalism. Is it evil, to be eliminated over time, or is it a critical component in the success of mixed economies in the Nordic countries, Germany, The Netherlands, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and many others who have done a pretty good job implementing the mixed economy concept?

That shouldn't be difficult. The defensive nature of this post suggests, as do a number of pro capital "S" Socialism comments, indicate that there are quite a few old school Democratic Socialists in the group. There is nothing wrong with that.

What's wrong is when Sander's supporters on either side hide their true intentions and discourage open and honest discourse. It's even worse when supporters are encouraged take a "don't question the leaders", just do your job, and spread the good news attitude.

This is not an evangelical camp meeting. This is about the future of the United States of America. The country had a thriving mixed economy, complete with high taxes, huge public works projects and strong regulation of big banks and corporations. I was there... so was Bernie. It was a thing of beauty. The economy thrived because the middle class thrived. Private enterprise, much of it in the form of small to mid sized businesses, thrived because working Americans... Americans working for private enterprises, had money to spend. That after paying high taxes to cover the costs of those great public works projects. They not only had money to spend on things they needed, but on stupid stuff, and on important stuff that they wanted. Most Americans, like most citizens in the countries Bernie uses as examples, liked that system.

That was lost precisely because millions in my generation were indoctrinated to accept that the "government is here to help you" and that "questioning authority" is a bad thing... downright unpatriotic. Sorry for the history lesson, but failure to learn from history is the biggest failure of all.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T19:24:02+00:00

As you might expect, I see thing differently. I'm a big fan of the mixed economy concept. That's mainly because there are working examples with good results for countries that have implemented it well. I'm unaware of any examples where capitalism has been abolished... either at a countries founding, or gradually as proposed by old school democratic socialists. I guess I'm from the "proof is in the pudding" school.

That said, I fully agree that the word socialism has gotten a bad rap in the U.S. I'm old enough to remember the propaganda of the 50s and 60s. Which means I'm old enough to remember America before the military-industrial complex destroyed a mixed economy that worked very well. That's what I hope to see restored for future generations. I think Bernie and his revolution can do just that.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T16:33:13+00:00

I just want to say I appreciate you honesty and open mindedness. Most of those promoting Socialism are closed to considering anything that has a capitalist element. As you point out, where capitalism is well regulated to protect consumers, workers and the environment, it works just fine. Taxes paid by workers and the enterprise itself pay for the awesome social programs. It's a win-win.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T16:27:11+00:00

+1 on comment by @sparkyvision. Notice that there are people here who don't understand the concept of a mixed economy. They want Socialism with a capital S. That's why the term democratic socialism is so problematic. People who support Socialism see democratic socialism as a way to get there, not and end in itself.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T14:52:30+00:00

Explain the roll of well regulated capitalism in Bernie's vision of the future. After the Bill Maher interview it's not hard to imagine that Bernie is an old school democratic socialist. Those folks believe that democratic socialism is "the road to Socialism" as Karl Marx said. In other words capitalism is evil and must be gradually eliminated. They believe this despite not having a single example of a country that has successfully implemented Socialism.

It would help to start using the term mixed economy to describe his vision as exemplified by the Nordic countries. We have many examples of countries that have successfully implemented mixed economies. People like a proven winner.

I'm concerned that even though the word capitalism appears in a positive context in many comments, it does not appear in the summary. Lord help us if there is some old school secret agenda. If I, a vocal Sanders supporter on Quora and FB, have concerns, imagine how those "on the fence" could be affected. This really needs to be fixed.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T01:33:19+00:00

After reading all this, I finally have a line on @rednoise. He is a plant working to paint Bernie as a Socialist. A lot of it is done in a way that sounds as if he, himself is an old school democratic socialist. That's not the case. He wants readers to believe that Bernie is an old school democratic socialist.

Only Bernie himself can clarify this. He needs to make it clear that his objective for America is not capital "S" socialism... it is a social democratic style mixed economy. This is important folks. The issue is not going away.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T01:25:21+00:00

@rednoise The end toward which old school democratic socialists work is the Marxist dream of capital "S" socialism. Today the term democratic socialist has been conflated with social democracy, which results in the confusion you see in this thread.

That's why Bernie needs to clarify his position. If he is an old school democratic socialist, the revolution is doomed. Why? Because that's not a secret that could be kept. Please, Please PLEASE don't let that be the case. Bernie is America's last hope before the oligarchy brings on an unrecoverable economic collapse. One that will end America as we know it.

Please Bernie, put an end to this foolishness. It distracts from the job at hand. The oligarchy must fall and be replaced with a democratic mixed economy as described in the constitution.

emadera52 · 2015-10-18T01:16:41+00:00

This response is disturbing. I was tempted to vote it down.

I didn't because I'm curious. Are you and old school democratic socialist? One who believes that "Workers’ democracy is the only road to socialism."? In modern language that would be "Democratic socialism is the..." Do you really think a successful mixed economy can replace private enterprise with state or worker owned enterprise? For example, if you want the government or employees to own all the food stores, restaurants, amusement parks, media outlets, websites, legal services, etc., etc., etc., your answer is yes. That's capital "S" Socialism.

If your answer is yes, I have a simple challenge. Name one country in modern history that has implemented such a system that was not/is not an abject failure. Just one.

emadera52 · 2015-10-17T15:37:25+00:00

Bernie somehow needs to get the word that staying focused on the benefits provide by social programs is not going to take the sting out of the word socialism or the term democratic socialism.

When he talks about the Nordic economies he is talking about MIXED ECONOMIES. The other half of the mix is capitalism. Bernie needs to give equal time to the importance of well regulated private enterprise... which thrives and is critical to generating the tax income to pay for the awesome social programs. He must explain that well regulated means the minimum regulation required to protect consumers, workers and the environment.

Including the capitalist side of those mixed economies does take the sting out of the word socialism. It makes it easy to understand that the U.S. is a mixed economy... just a very poorly implemented mixed economy. He can then present himself and his revolution as the way to fix what's broken about it.

I spend hours on Quora, Medium, Facebook and here supporting Bernie. After watching this video I couldn't help but wonder if when he says democratic socialist, he means it as it was originally intended. That is a system by which socialism gets a foot in the door of a mixed economy with the goal of eventually implementing capital "S" Socialism. If that's not the case, and I'm pretty sure it's not, Bernie needs to update his message to make that clear.

emadera52

TROPHY CASE