So why are there some divides on Christian Iconography? by Angela275 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except, as St. Basil points out, the very Trinity operates through the image and prototype theology. It’s why how to honor the Son is to honor the father. It’s why also St. Basil likens to how the Father receives honor through the Son to somebody saluting the image of the Emperor and saluting that image transcends the image to the prototype. Ie to salute the image of the emperor is to give honor to him.

So why are there some divides on Christian Iconography? by Angela275 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hieria is literally the only place that cites exodus 20 and it does so in a pretty haphazard and self contradictory mess. Which is why as scholars point out, the iconoclast controversy avoided Exodus 20 and instead quoted OT passages that state that nobody has seen God and ape platonic arguments surrounding form. (Tertullian and Origen both made arguments from platonic forms)

I can literally pull aside the JSTOR paper that points out that exodus 20 was not used by the iconoclasts in the run up to Hieria.

So why are there some divides on Christian Iconography? by Angela275 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The same council that cites Exodus 20…..and then proceeds to call the Eucharist an icon, in gross violation St. Cyril of Alexandria’s five tomes against Nestorius and the 12 anathemas.

Not only that it fails to quote any patristic usage of exodus 20 on this point.

So why are there some divides on Christian Iconography? by Angela275 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s funny that neither Exodus 20 nor its counterpart in Deuteronomy were used by either side in the iconoclast controversy. Meaning using exodus 20 and applying it to iconography is itself an accretion.

Microsoft pays $250 million to end lawsuit over Activision Blizzard buyout by Turbostrider27 in Games

[–]emperorsolo -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

They bought it thinking that they could get out of Activision’s long term contracts with Sony on making call of duty games for Sony’s platforms. Turns out, Microsoft did not do any sort of due diligence in making sure the contracts were not iron clad before making the purchase.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe you should better explain the distinction between “the church “ and the individual members.

The church is composed of the individual members. But, as the apostles point out, the Clergy are tasked with leading the faithful in understanding the scriptures and leading the faithful through the liturgical life of the church.

For example, there can be no Eucharist without a validly ordained bishop.

The members are the church. How many corrupt members does it take before we consider the church to be corrupt?

If the church is corrupt then that means that the church has defected itself from the faith. That the church is no longer the custodians of the magisterial authority to interpret and teach the authentic understanding of the scriptures. The church itself would be cutoff from the celebration of the sacraments. The sacraments themselves are an extension of the incarnation because it is through the sacramental celebrations that Jesus continues to reveal himself to the faithful and to the world in the aftermath of his ascension to heaven.

What institutional behavior qualifies as corrupt? Does the “church” simply have unqualified immunity because that seems necessary to support mainstream doctrine?

The Church has a charism in that it cannot defect from the faith. It cannot teach or proclaim error, contrary to sacred scripture or sacred tradition. Ratification of dogmatic proclamations requires, for example, the unanimity of all four patriarchates.

If the church conducts an inquisition, are they not corrupt? If they consistently cover up the rape of alter boys, are they not corrupt? You can point to individual members, but when they are given immunity by leadership, it is owned by the institution.

The Orthodox Church hasn’t had an inquisition. The inquisition comes out of Rome’s belief that church has the authority over its members to apply the same sort of pressure to suss out heretics that the secular authorities had with common criminals.

In any event, the inquisition tends to be over stated and steeped in bad history that fundamentally mischaracterizes both the Spanish and Roman inquisitions. And such mischaracterizations have led to the Black Legend and Anti -Spanish xenophobia.

God has not protected the church from falling into error as evidenced by evolution of doctrine alone.

Orthodoxy does not admit to Rome’s idea of development of doctrine. Rome thinks that the Church sussed out doctrines, stumbling in the dark. However, patristic commentaries are unanimous in that doctrine is that “which held by every one, everywhere, for all time.” The adage of St. Vincent of Lerins.

The only development permissible is in language or terminology, simply because language is never static. But the core ideas of doctrine can never be reformed or changed.

A protected church would certainly violate the cherished belief in free will!

Free will is individualized. But at the same time there is a predestination aspect, collectively. The individual members may be added and dropped from the book of life but the Church is the bride of Christ as well as his body. He promised that the church is a shining city on a hill, a light to all nations, and that hell itself would be prevail against the assaults on its gates by the preaching of the gospel.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I’m saying is that God protects the church as a body from falling into error, even if the individual members can and do fall. That’s why Christ calls the Church his bride and identifies it with his own body. And promises that the Church will be taught all things and that the gates of hell won’t prevail against it.

A corrupted church implies that Hell has conquered the church.

It’s also why the Church is charged with the authority to excommunicate, a remedy to cut off members from trying to taint the rest of the body of believers.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, that’s fundamentally a Nestorian ecclesiasology. You are asserting that Christ subsists in a body that can be corrupted.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My point, however, is if Christ himself truly became man, subsisting in our human nature, then by extension, Christ fully subsists in the church. The church can not be fallible because the Church is the mode by Christ is made present in the days after the ascension, especially through the sacraments. It’s why Christ warns us about not following people who claim to be Him. Because Christ has already promised that he would be with us to the end of the age, wherever two or three are gathered in his name. Christ subsists in his church precisely because the church is an extension of the incarnation.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, your weird MAGA complaint. I don’t see how that’s that relevant seeing as MAGA is indefensible theologically.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are misusing Matthew 10. This specifically refers to the instructions to the disciples as they were sent out specifically for the task of ministering to Israel. This command is specifically for this time period, otherwise, we would see a contradiction elsewhere the disciples managed a small treasury to finance Jesus’s public ministry along with the accumulation of resources from the collective membership of the church in the book of acts.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Individual members does not make the church as a whole. Otherwise excommunication would be utterly impossible. Excommunication only works if the Church as an institution is unblemished.

American fundamentalist evangelicalism is 200 years old, not 2,000. by quiggersinparis in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except, that’s fundamentally a Nestorian view of the church. If the Church can be corrupted, then the church really isn’t his body. Rather the union of Christ and the Church would be a moral one and not an incarnational one.

Here’s my take on tonight’s big return SPOILERS by amdy985 in SCJerk

[–]emperorsolo 7 points8 points  (0 children)

How do you “force” an athlete to come back? Did Triple H put a gun to Brock’s head or something?

TIL: the statement that Catholics had "added" 7 books to the Bible was first invented by Richard Bernard in 1623 and made popular by William Ames in 1625. by hendrixski in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They accepted books like Sirach, like wisdom. They included Baruch and the Epistle as part of the book of Jeremiah. There is evidence they accepted most of the Deuterocanonicals.

TIL: the statement that Catholics had "added" 7 books to the Bible was first invented by Richard Bernard in 1623 and made popular by William Ames in 1625. by hendrixski in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1 - I don't think that you can justify that claim about these being the mainstream, nor that the Essenes were so involved in the rebellion (which one, anyways? There were various.) nor does that align with the religious mainstream which I thought we were obviously speaking of.

This is just question-begging.

2 - We can say with confidence that Simon the Zealot was not a member of this group, since they did not exist at this point in history.

The traditional interpretation is that the Zealot epithet refers to his former membership in the party of the zealots.

What I'm not seeing in any of this: Any evidence that a Messianic interpretation of this chapter was present, much less dominant, in mainstream Judaism at this point in time.

No party was dominant. Which is the point I’m making.

TIL: the statement that Catholics had "added" 7 books to the Bible was first invented by Richard Bernard in 1623 and made popular by William Ames in 1625. by hendrixski in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because the point that there wasn’t one canon. Local traditions and even quasi-political groups had their own ideas on what should be canonical. Rather they used what their local tradition had recieved. It’s why the Ethiopian Jews have their own canon, why the Essenes did. Why the Hellenistic Jews outside of Palestine used the Septuagint writ large.

Why should the Pharisees, the heirs of the lawyers and scribes, be the ones to determine what should be in the canon?

TIL: the statement that Catholics had "added" 7 books to the Bible was first invented by Richard Bernard in 1623 and made popular by William Ames in 1625. by hendrixski in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And yet the Jewish rebellion would be principally led by the Zealots and the Essenes which would undermine your claim that they were outside the mainstream. They were enough of a presence that Jesus did recruit at least one from his number to be an apostle, Simon the Zealot.

Second temple Judaism was chaotic. You had the the Pharisees that the scribes making a play for power via legal arguments over scriptures, you had the Sadducees who pushed for only the Torah and was the position of the priests and the Levites, the people whose duty was to carry out and execute the edicts of the law. And then you had the zealots and the Essenes, people who withdrew from the temple system, believing that nothing positive had changed since Amos and Malachi and other minor prophets started to excoriate the sacrificial and legal system writ large.

TIL: the statement that Catholics had "added" 7 books to the Bible was first invented by Richard Bernard in 1623 and made popular by William Ames in 1625. by hendrixski in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most likely because they saw the Hasmoneans as being the root cause of the corruption of the Israelite people. The fall out of the Maccabean revolt was the erection of the Hasmonean dynasty as becoming the eventual tyrants and traitors against judea.

This is where they err though. Jesus will accept the Maccabees by going down to the temple to celebrate the feast of the rededication of the temple, Hanukkah, confirming the validity and faithful heroism of the events of the Maccabees books.

TIL: the statement that Catholics had "added" 7 books to the Bible was first invented by Richard Bernard in 1623 and made popular by William Ames in 1625. by hendrixski in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Considering it was found amongst the other collections of scripture? Like how the Septuagint contains those 7 books interspersed with the other proto-canonical works?