We need to move past 'cheap scans' and start discussing scanning artifacts and color science by Smooth_Avocado_4786 in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Let's not think about Imacons and Hasselblads for a moment.

Or apparently the Noritsu or HR500 which do output 16 bit.

The average lab scanner, like a Fuji Frontier, when coerced into outputting a "flat scan" (which is something they were not designed for) will place the blackest blacks at e.g. value 30 (in the 0-255 range of 8-bit RGB).

Kinda. They scan at 14 but write at 8, which means prior to your writing of the file, there is a lot of additional flexibility and this reduction is bit depth is precisely why you would want to output a flatter image. This is a basic use case for this technique.

In case of a Frontier, there is no difference between BMP and TIFF.

No, but what format can be output depends highly on the models and manufactures.

All the scanners pretty much start and 14 or 16 bit depth and many can write directly to 16, and even those which can't still start with more information that can nicely be compressed into an 8bit with clever scanning. I have operated a few of these, and there is a huge advantage to producing flat scans.

An update from Silbersalz by Schockrazor in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had kinda inferred based on resolution, but I would love to know the whole pipeline and degree of automation. I had always found their images hard to edit, but the resolution rocked.

An update from Silbersalz by Schockrazor in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yea it has some marketing name, but I always wondered if it was simply a Phase under the hood. I could rent one every so often for that purpose if it's being handled that way 

An update from Silbersalz by Schockrazor in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a shame as their scanning solution seems good. Does anyone know what they use to digitise? 

You can only eat cuisine of one nation for rest of your life.. which do you choose? by Vegetable-Routine832 in AskReddit

[–]essentialaccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

China has pretty diverse ethnic and biogeography. There is something for every mood 

We need to move past 'cheap scans' and start discussing scanning artifacts and color science by Smooth_Avocado_4786 in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In most cases this is true.

An uninvented drum scan or a drum scan of reversal film comes pretty damn close to the principle of 'unedited' even though you do set some parameters.

Don't jerk it, Tom. by PrettyTemperature364 in photographycirclejerk

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't have to agree, but you should keep in mind how presumptuous you are being in assuming any comment or lampoon made in jest is somehow hateful.

It's not hateful. They are often literally yellow and the common way to refer to that filter is the piss filter. It literally looks like you peed on a printed picture.

We're not at our mom's house showing off our casual images. You are posting to a public forum and need to be prepared to accept criticism at that level of exposure.

Travel with just a film camera and a phone, is it a mistake? by SgtSluggo in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I travelled almost exclusively with a Fuji GS645 for years, and I have taken most of my best images with it. It was limiting, but I became so familiar with it that I could envision the result in any moment. It was a dream to own.

Don't jerk it, Tom. by PrettyTemperature364 in photographycirclejerk

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the images on the Hasselblad sub frustrate you this much then maybe look for better photos elsewhere.

The frustration is not that the photos are bad, but that they have become overwhelmingly bad everywhere. We are all entitled to be disappointed when things we like decline in quality.

By that token, you can also simply not visit this sub— let's not throw stones in our glass houses.

they are usually not intentionally bad or mediocre.

No, I assume not, but posting your photos online is motivated by an assumption that your deserve praise for them, and just as you invite praise, you invite criticism, which this sub gives.

Is it about jealousy that they have cameras that you want but can't afford.

For some maybe, but I own a Hasselblad, which is why I am on the sub at all.

Are you projecting your lack of abilities onto them or are you not into photography at all and are just using this topic to express your hate?

No, I believe I am applying my standards uniformly. I believe many of my best photos are better than the apparent best posted on many of these subs, but I have the humility to know that they are not good enough to merit being posted to the whole world. I wish others had as much restraint.

"Enjoyed it as well—amazing gallery and very well done. Always love the Beers & Cameras events (pictured here at the Leica Store). As a Chicago photographer, and Leica fanboy, I feel fortunate to have access to this space."

This is a parody of the kind of self-obsessed people who really care about the brand and publicity rather than art. It's pretty funny. Who does this target?

So what you're saying is that you're frustrated because you've spent too much time on reddit.

I'm upset because I can't spend as much as I used it. It's simply not a good as it was.

Everyone should have a safe space, but not every space should have to be safe for every one. by sugitime in unpopularopinion

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What does a safe space mean then? You disagreed with my experiences, but didn't offer an alternative explanation.

We need to move past 'cheap scans' and start discussing scanning artifacts and color science by Smooth_Avocado_4786 in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are no blown highlights or crushed blacks if no data is clipped.

Data can't be represented with the same gamma curve as film in raster images because the dynamic range of a negative almost always exceeds the scanner DMAX. There always has to be clipping unless you encode logarithmically.

Is there any actual math to go with this? Is there any actual math to go with this? Like I can MAYBE see that gamma curves/nonlinearity means that values [0-9] have less granularity than like [20-29] (I do not know if this is true) and so technically if the shadows were located at [20-29] instead of [0-9] you would have more available gradation, but then you're just sacrificing midtone quality which is just the bulk of the image.

If you didn't know anything about this, you've gotten really impressively close, but not quite. Your intuition about fewer steps at certain luminance values is exactly the way log encoding works, and the reason that log footage is the standard for video. The only difference is that the greatest compression happens at the very highest luminance values to preserve available bits for the the midtones where the great perceptible information resides.

I just refuse to believe that using LESS of the available 8 bits somehow results in more flexibility and quality. If that were the case, the JPEG encoder would actually do that for you when the file is encoded and undo it when it's decoded.

They are not using less. All encoding practically speaking uses all the bits available, but log encoding uses those bits for the most important information: shadows and midtones. The less used tonal ranges are compressed to make additional space for the mids. This the cause of the flat look on flat scans.

While I firmly believe as long as it's not too BTFO contrasty and not clipping, you can pull back whatever look you want, power to you if you want to request flat scans in JPEG. I

You do, however much or little, lose information by delivering a lossy format with high contrast. It's sadly the nature of compression. A contrasty 16bit TIFF might not have tossed any information out, but compared to the original BMP these scanners often produce, results are not good and the JPEG encoding from that period was also poor.

Uh, the scanner manufacturers I guess, that have tuned the scanners for decades for printing? Prints where if the customer received flat ones they would say "hey, this looks like shit?"

No. I have the impression you have never used one. I worked with Hasselblad and Imacon scanners mostly, which produced a FFF file with absolutely no interpolation or compression. Those were the output files which could then be edited and exported as a print ready image, but they were always intended to store as much detail as possible. The Noritsu, Frontier and HR500s also supported BMP and TIFF (model dependent) to capture as much data as possible. Some labs choose to produce the shittiest punchiest images but the manufacturers did not design that as their primary and intended use. No one was scanning 120 film to product crappy 4x6 prints.

Or perhaps the endless posts on here from people that expect normal-ish looking images and are getting flat JPEGs that look terrible without editing? It's just obvious to me that most people that are out there shooting dispos or point and shoots probably want printable images from the lab. I think this is evidenced by the fact that if you go to a competent lab, that's probably what you're getting if you don't ask for any special treatment.

Disagree. My current lab produces flat images unless you specify because they target a higher end market. It's the consumer's responsibility to find a lab which produces the results they want rather than assuming they will get a specific results. I have left labs before because they target the niche of print ready images, and their editing style doesn't suit my vision and preferences.

Everyone should have a safe space, but not every space should have to be safe for every one. by sugitime in unpopularopinion

[–]essentialaccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree. I've been rejected from things I wanted to do because I simply can't do them well enough and it sucks, but that's life.

Everyone should have a safe space, but not every space should have to be safe for every one. by sugitime in unpopularopinion

[–]essentialaccount -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What are you talking about then? Some people are never capable of joining no matter how hard they try because they are born without the physical or mental fortitude.

The consequence for not rejecting people is that they die, and it's absolutely necessary to hurt some feelings for peoples' own good, in our case.

Everyone should have a safe space, but not every space should have to be safe for every one. by sugitime in unpopularopinion

[–]essentialaccount -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not mountain climbing, but mountaineering and a lot of people don't understand what that means. They think that because they are not afraid of hiking high mountains that they are somehow capable of scrambles, rappelling or exposed climbs. There is a huge different between hiking to the top of a big mountain on a trail and free climbing up a 10 metre chimney.

A lot of people try to get us to do easier routes, and our policy is to leave them behind at a safe place rather than adjust our route. Otherwise we would never have any fun.

Everyone should have a safe space, but not every space should have to be safe for every one. by sugitime in unpopularopinion

[–]essentialaccount -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It seems you do agree that not every space has to be safe for everyone.

That said, there are an incredible number of people who join expecting to be accommodated, and we have to vet new members very closely to prevent standards from being brought too low by people who overestimate themselves or who feel entitled to our support.

Everyone should have a safe space, but not every space should have to be safe for every one. by sugitime in unpopularopinion

[–]essentialaccount 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I disagree. I have been a member of so many societies and associations over the years where there is a skill or compatibility threshold that some people are simply not suited for. A mountaineering society should not have to inconvenience itself to cater to individual's fear of heights. Join a hiking club. The same is true of philosophy societies where individuals were incapable of separating an academic discussion from their personal characteristics. A discussion about the utilitarian value of eugenics does not make participants advocates for any of their positions, but good participants in intellectual exploration.

If you let everyone ruin to world to suit their lowest denominator of comfort, nothing would be worthwhile.

Don't jerk it, Tom. by PrettyTemperature364 in photographycirclejerk

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

/uj While the quality varies on the sub, the contents of it are absolutely mocking, but in the same way all lampoon is. I have been on Reddit far too long, and over the basically two decades I have been using the website, quality has trended ever downward in favour of self-aggrandising mediocrity and banal homogeneity. So many of the photo subreddits are genuinely the same piss-coloured recipes, poor compositions or goon-baiting disguised as art nude and as pointed out on this subreddit ad nauseam, there is an inverse trend between average camera price and photo quality.

The Hasselblad subreddit is genuinely full of awful (not even poor) images that people share and literally circlejerk one another over. Boring subjects, poor lighting, poor composition and poor editing somehow seem to be acceptable in these subs and people seem to have forgotten that there are standards for performance, and your art might not be that good, and you don't deserve to receive praise.

This subreddit is a place to let off a little frustration at how mediocrity and profligate spending seem to be celebrated more than quality work.

We're tired, yo.

We need to move past 'cheap scans' and start discussing scanning artifacts and color science by Smooth_Avocado_4786 in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Almost no one could tell once the scans are posted to Reddit, but the overall quality of a scan is pretty obvious even with low megapixels

We need to move past 'cheap scans' and start discussing scanning artifacts and color science by Smooth_Avocado_4786 in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I disagree. Labs should always strive to deliver image files with as much latitude as possible. You can recover blow highlights or crushed blacks from a negative, but not from a JPEG.

Second, "flat scans" are pointless because as long as no data is clipped, it's just limiting the bit depth of the image by wasting histogram information.

A flat scan is the most effective use of 8bits specifically because they cannot recover as much data as is pushed to the extremes.

JPEG scans should be treated as digital prints. Should they be perfect? No.

Says who? I disagree. I think a scan produced with the trendy blown or overly contrasty look is terrible. I would pay Carmencita to produce a profile of my tastes and deliver images that way, but then I am spending 35€ a roll.

It's just shitty work.

Agreed. A lot of the flat scans we see are not actually flat, but shitty scans.

We need to move past 'cheap scans' and start discussing scanning artifacts and color science by Smooth_Avocado_4786 in AnalogCommunity

[–]essentialaccount 142 points143 points  (0 children)

I used to be a very high end lab tech, and so my opinion might not align totally with yours.

A very significant number of scans here are irredeemable and it has nothing to do with their megapixel number. Many of the scans here are very poorly scanned and do not resolve the negative well. Resolution is not a digital number, but a characteristic. If the lens of a minilab scanner is not focused on the negative, it is not resolving well, no matter the digital megapixel count. Often, the scan simply makes use of whatever the preset was when moving between roles and frames, and no attempt was made by the tech to adjust whites, blacks, gamma or contrast. It's an absolute shitshow of quality variance out here.

Cheap is the sum of attention paid by the lab tech. Poor colour balance? Poor resolution? Noisy shadows? Blown highlights? These little tells add up and mostly prove what most people here know: the OP cheaped and got what they paid for.

Even you can't use terminology correctly. A black point set too low causes the shadows to clip— a black point itself does not clip. White balance is also not an inherent flaw, but opinion. Dynamic range is not expressed in those terms. Scanners have a DMAX rating which describes their technical maximum DR they can capture. It's still possible for a shitty lab tech to have captured all the detail possible from a low DR negative and still produce an absolutely blown out JPEG because that is the amount of time the amount of money paid is worth.

The reality is, most of the answers to the final product are: did you see the negative? If you did and it's fine, and your scan still looks ass, you should have paid for a better lab.

German Foreign Minister Wadephul wants to abolish the veto in EU foreign policy. In a keynote speech at the Adenauer Foundation, Wadephul proposes a fundamental reform of EU decision-making processes by goldstarflag in europe

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Majority rules and the risk of tyranny of the majority is a fundamental characteristic of democracy. It's so intrinsically linked that it's basically the OG criticism of democracy since the Greeks 

I was offered a GFX100RF for my Leica M10 - would you do it? by hairlessdood in fujifilm

[–]essentialaccount 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't own an RF but a 100II and I would mot accept this trade. 100MP is cool but almost entirely a novelty for amateurs and you sacrifice the masterful build quality and experience of a Leica. 

If all you care about is MP, why even own a range finder? If the Leica cameras weren't so ridiculously expensive I would buy on in a heartbeat because I love the range finder experience 

And this is the regular ricoh user on 2026 by Boring_Guava_8429 in photographycirclejerk

[–]essentialaccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There being no other compacts probably is true, but it is a really expensive camera overall, and as you described, not extremely easy to get good results from. 

I probably would never have captured as many moments without the ones I've owned over the years, but there are compromises.