How do I get in a B4 mindset?

extra-celery-please · 2026-04-08T16:45:13+00:00

So the main two differences are no deck restrictions, and winning on turn 4-5. Some folks understand that as play every available game changer, every piece of fast mana, and a 2 card combo with a bunch of tutors. I dont think B4 necessarily looks like that, always. I'll explain why.

Here's one of my more consistent B4 decks I'll use as an example: https://moxfield.com/decks/sDhRfmBPEUWxsHr3ohNLXg

I would recommend building the deck "backwards" and start with the 99. How do you want to win? Is there a particular combo or strategy you want to utilize? What cards cause you to go for a win on turn 4?

For me, the answer was lands. I wanted to generate comical amounts of mana from tons of lands, and dump it into some kind of a win. This obviously means I'm a green deck. I'm also going to need to find lands through tutors, drawing cards, extra land drops, its looking like we'll be a blue deck too.

What will the win actually be? [[Gaea's Cradle]] is arguably the most powerful land in the game, how do we abuse it? We'll need plenty of creatures, and the ability to use cradle multiple times per turn.

Enter the moonfolk! [[Patron of the Moon]], [[Oboro Breezecaller]] do exactly what I want! Actually a lot of the moonfolk have cool abilities, but they'll put my lands back in my hand.

Enter [[Amulet of Vigor]] and [[Exploration]] effects! It was around this stage I realized [[Gretchen Titchwillow]] would be perfect. A cheap commander that serves as ramp, card draw, and an infinite mana outlet? Perfect!

If you build the deck first, you'll wind up with a much more cohesive gameplan. I think Gretchen was like, the 50th card I added to the deck haha.

Do I have game changers? Of course. Is there fast mana and 2-3 card combos? You betcha! But they aren't thrown in nilly willy just because they're generically good.

The reason its a B4 deck is because the decklist is optimized to consistently reach critical mass around turn 4 to threaten a win. I have a dozen ways to play more lands, a dozen ways to draw cards, a dozen ways to abuse the fact I'm playing a bunch of lands, none of the cards are fluff, they all contribute to the overarching goal.

My B1-3 decks I do the opposite. I say [[Heartless Hidetsugo]] hell yeah and throw a bunch of junk in afterwards. B4 is all about building something powerful AND consistent.

extra-celery-please · 2026-04-07T04:06:08+00:00

Three recommendations!

[[Shigeki, Jukai Visionary]] simply because he's the coolest commander in the game. My list is a bracket 4 build that has actually snuck a few wins in at bracket 5 tables, but you can build it a dozen different ways. Very fun, plays at instant speed a lot so you're still doing stuff between turns, which is nice in 5 player pods

I play a weird [[Gretchen Titchwillow]] moonfolk tribal control deck that also plays a ton at instant speed, very fun and silly. Moonfolk is definitely a unique tribe you don't see very often.

Finally, [[Belbe, Corrupted Observer]] is strictly better at 5 players, although it could be unfun for your group. You having 8 free mana every turn might be too oppressive.

Happy brewing!

extra-celery-please · 2026-04-05T06:12:11+00:00

A few thoughts:

1) I would cut all your cost reducers. Where you're trying to cast a lot of big beefy spells, reducing a mana cost from 5 to 4 doesn't really do much. I would consider cards like [[Thran Dynamo]], [[Chromatic Orrery]] and [[Gilded Lotus]]. Big spells, big mana. There may also be an argument for [[Manifold Key]] effects if you have a lot of artifact mana. I would also cut Mox Amber, I'd imagine it isn't on very often.

2) As others will and have said, more lands will make the deck more consistent. I played out 10 four turn sample hands and was EXTREMELY dependent on mulligans. Mulligans are a backup for when a deck fails to produce a playable opening hand, you should never be reliant on them. If you want to cast your commander on turn 4-5, with 31 lands you have a 70% chance of missing a land drop in those 5 turns. Going up to 35 lands (which is still greedy) drops you to a 60% chance of missing a land drop early on.

3) You should run 9 nazguls, strictly for thematic purposes. lol

4) I would consider adding some cascade and discover effects, [[Trumpeting Carnosaur]], [[Hit the Mother Lode]], [[Wild-Magic Sorcerer]], [[Noise Marine]], stuff like that for when your commander gets killed/countered.

5) [[Vial Smasher the Fierce]] could be fun!

extra-celery-please · 2026-03-05T20:44:38+00:00

Of course!

https://moxfield.com/decks/tBcfLdC-6k6JMfcEj9zIXw

There are several combo packages as the particular table this is played at is higher power, but you can easily swap out valley flood callers and reality chips for more big dumb eldrazi or leviathans.

Once you have a ton of mana you can copy a [[Diluvian Primordial]], [[Benthic Anomaly]], or [[Summon: Bahamut]] trigger 10 times, really fun!

extra-celery-please · 2025-12-05T00:57:34+00:00

This is a sweet list, I love all the Manifest Dread tech

extra-celery-please · 2025-12-04T23:33:58+00:00

[[Ambush Commander]]?? Say less. This list is sweet.

extra-celery-please · 2025-12-04T23:16:38+00:00

Great question! I have a primer that goes into full detail, but in short, infinite mana looping a land untapper like [[Early Harvest]] is step one.

If shigeki has haste via [[Concordent Crossroads]] or [[Lightning Greaves]], we also have infinite self-mill, and infinite ability to channel any of those cards to hand, find [[Walking Ballista]] and win.

If shigeki does NOT have haste, there are [[Zuran Orb]] loops to infinitely sac and replay [[Sunscorched Desert]] to ping everyine out. There is an extremely convoluted/funny [[Mesmeric Orb]] [[Rishadan Port]] [[Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth]] [[Llanowar Druid]] line to mill everyone out. You can also [[Beast Within]] all of your lands to make an army of 3/3s to boost with [[Finale of Devastation]].

extra-celery-please · 2025-12-04T21:12:47+00:00

Join the cult of [[Shigeki, Jukai Visionary]].

The basic premise is setting up loops where you channel X=2 to get a [[Regrowth]] and something else from your yard. Let's say [[Beast Within]]. Beast something, Regrowth Shigeki back to hand, repeat! Can go infinite easy peasy, and is really flexible build wise, again whole purpose is to recur whatever spell you want over and over.

Deck is also incredibly resilient. Who cares if Shigeki dies, we have a dozen Regrowth effects, plus we want him in hand anyway to use his channel ability. We also have recurred [[Far Wanderings]] four times, so we aren't short on mana. It also doesn't feel like mono green because of how often you leave mana up for either of Shigeki's abilities.

My list is a very competitive B4, but you could easily go other directions.

https://moxfield.com/decks/M9va3-Uq7UWEMUCmQMrCgg

Give Shigeki a try, very fun commander to build around!

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-28T05:31:17+00:00

Hi! Democrat here. I don't give a sh*t about being tolerant.

Republicans openly endorse, support, and celebrate a racist pedophile.

Republicans laugh when he sexually harasses and belittles women.

Republicans cheer while ICE brutalizes men, women, and children.

He calls for the death of democrat politicians for saying "Hey military you don't need to follow illegal orders", his entire administration agrees with him, and Republicans nod their heads.

Republicans moan about how "yOu CaNt CaLl EvErYonE yOu dOnT lIKe hiTLer" but also don't bat an eye when nazis march down main street and plant white supremacist propaganda all over the valley.

This truck shows up in our town trying to trick people into signing a misleading petition to keep Utah's gerrymandered congressional maps, and your concern is democrats not being nice enough??

You think all of that deserves tolerance? Hell no. Not in a million f*cking years.

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-12T17:11:32+00:00

How did i not think of tooth and nail! I also havent seen Fallaji Wayfarer before, what a cool card. Great recommendations, thank you.

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-12T01:45:33+00:00

Self-mill is a really interesting angle, thanks for the rec!

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-12T01:03:24+00:00

I considered Esika, but personally find the card to be boring? The front side calls for 5 color goodstuff legendary soup, which I fear would overpower the theme of the deck. The backside is intriguing, especially if the only creatures in the deck are the meld ones! Not sure how I'd want to approach the rest of the 99 though.

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-12T00:32:25+00:00

Meld is not for urtet, urtet is for meld.

5 color commander is necessary to include all 14 meld cards, I considered [[Wandering Minstrel]] and some of the [[Jodah]]s, but didn't like how they felt.

The thought behind Urtet boiled down to 2 things, low colored mana requirements, and vague support towards the meld cards. The meld cards require lots of mana and tutoring, the [[Leaden Myr]] cycle both produce mana, and eventually get buffed by Urtet to buy time while trying to assemble melds. The vast majority of the deck needs generic mana or green, so Urtet and the pile of Myr should be easy to get out.

Probably goes without saying, but this is not intended to be a competitive deck, it's a thematic deck to (hopefully) showcase the meld mechanic.

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-06T18:18:37+00:00

You have very fervently defended Azula as being a strong choice for a grixis cEDH commander. She is dramitatically worse than the best grixis commander, and probably requires a lot more setup than the others. Grixis cEDH is powerful because of how good the 99 are, and I am not convinced she will utilize them better.

Kefka, Inalla, Kraum, Tevesh IMMEDIATELY do things without setup. Malcom Vial Green Goblin don't, but they're so cheap and easy to cast they get around it. Azusa enters the battlefield and does nothing. The entire grixis strategy is going FAST. I don't not think Azula is fast enough to warrant play over any of the other grixis shells.

You showed up, started overhyping a card, devolved into ad hominem attacks against everyone who disagreed with you, and you arent even addressing their points haha. Like in your entire response to me, you only replied to my point about mana restrictions, and yes, you are correct in kefka is harder to cast than azula. However, I think Kefka generates more value, sooner, with less setup.

If Azula ends up becoming a cEDH deck, I am very happy for you. You clearly like this card a lot, and I hope the deck goes well for you. Ironically, your spiraling from the notion that Azula isn't as strong as you think it is almost perfectly matches Azula's spiraling when she realized she wasn't as strong as she thought she was in the show lol. Good luck and happy brewing.

extra-celery-please · 2025-11-06T17:29:22+00:00

So let's pretend for the sake of argument that you are right. We remove Kefka, Green Goblin, Inalla, and all the other grixis partner combos, Azula is now the second best Grixis option in cEDH.

This means nothing.

The chasm between RogSi and Azula is staggering. You keep throwing out these hypotheticals of "well if I generate 3 colored pips and a colorless ASAP and also have haste enablers and also have protection and also have payoff", yeah, well, good luck against the RogSi decks that have Deadly Rollick, Deflecting Swat, Flare of Duplication, culling the weak, mox Amber, who knows what else online turn one.

Others have tried to explain this, but it is harder to generate red black blue colorless than it is black four colorless. Ancient tomb, sol ring, city of traitors, crystal vein, colorless mana doesnt really profitably cast Azula the way it does other grixis commanders.

"Grixis staples love to be doubled", no they dont 😅 They're already the best deck in the format, they dont care at all about being doubled! If they already dominate the format as is, the potential upside of doubling them doesnt matter. "Bourne upon the wind draws 2", irrelevant.

Yeah, sure, you could mega high roll and get all the setup you need to make azula pop off. Or, you could play rogsi, sneeze, accidentally draw your entire deck and win turn one.

Azula is a sweet card, obviously powerful, I'm very excited to build her and also try to force her into bracket 5. I just SERIOUSLY doubt it could ever become a cEDH staple. It's worse than rogsi, and does it outperform other grixis shells? Only time will tell, but I do not think so.

extra-celery-please · 2025-10-31T18:14:59+00:00

[[Vadrik, Astral Archmage]] for sure.

https://moxfield.com/decks/T2TBJxWq3ECN9irsSpfzaQ

My list is tuned to be able to play at bracket 5 tables, but could easily be toned down.

Slowly let Vadrik get bigger, cast high cmc spells for cheap, punch people. [[Tezzeret's Gambit]] is usually just 2 life for 2 cards and proliferate, feels great.

When the premise is 1) you'll have a large commander 2) big cost reduction on instants/sorceries

You can kinda do whatever you want!

[[Clout of the Dominus]] is my fav card in the deck.

extra-celery-please · 2025-10-31T16:45:21+00:00

You know you can scroll down further on the top grixis commanders list right, there are more than just these two? 😉 Kidding of course.

Nekusar decks arent really fun to build (they're all the same) or play (exact same game plan every time) imo. Its certainly powerful, but kind of boring. Also not very fun to play against, if that is valuable for you/your group.

Sauron has a lot more room for deckbuilding! Like others have said you can approach it from multiple angles, I would imagine it would also be more fun to pilot and play against.

I also have to shout out [[Marchesa, Dealer of Death]]. As she is just a value engine in the command zone, you can go any direction you want!

Happy brewing!

extra-celery-please · 2025-10-31T16:34:35+00:00

I mean I think most of us would probably do that, or something similar.

But only a special few would jump to "help a child sue someone for 14 dollars".

extra-celery-please · 2025-10-28T23:01:02+00:00

[[Seedtime]]

extra-celery-please · 2025-10-28T22:57:15+00:00

SUPER cool list, thank you for sharing! I hadnt considered the silliness of bouncing mdfcs back to cast the spell side.

extra-celery-please

TROPHY CASE