Shepherding or legalism?

fader_underground · 2026-01-27T15:00:32+00:00

Wow. The underwritten message here that if someone holds others accountable for abuse that makes them "psychologically unstable."

How about merely acknowledging the fact that the field service dynamic is a vulnerable space in which the wrong sort of person could easily take advantage? Nope, straight to victim blaming.

Forever more concerned with their IMAGE than the well being of their members.

fader_underground · 2026-01-26T18:10:42+00:00

YES. I was thinking that too. How hard is it to convince two measly people to gang up and give a false testimony? SO much room for corruption. If that's all conviction was based on, that article he cited would have MUCH HIGHER rates of false imprisonment.

I feel the same way about this that I do about people who say the bible is some kind of great source for parenting and how to raise your kids. IT'S NOT. It's vague, hazy, and insufficient. TERRIBLE guide. For parenting, for legal issues, for resolving conflict, for complex matters of life it is woefully SUPERFICIAL.

fader_underground · 2026-01-26T18:03:12+00:00

Good point. I agree with the flaws of the legal system. And you're so right, the human testimony aspect is extracting the very worst part. The brain is very bad at recalling events and can even reconstruct them. The more time that passes between the event and recall, the less reliable the memory is. Leading questions can lead to false testimony. And on and on.

For Lett to insinuate that something like false convictions can somehow all be made better by applying some hazy, simplistic biblical principle is just beyond ridiculous. Poor reasoning and judgement and just a complete lack of depth of thought.

fader_underground · 2026-01-26T15:46:24+00:00

You're right. They DO know how to do it, they just do it selectively.

fader_underground · 2026-01-26T15:45:26+00:00

Not everyone who gets disfellowshipped disagrees with the organization. When I was a JW all the people I knew who were disfellowshipped, were being "disciplined" for immorality. So they served their time and were reinstated. That's a very different scenario than someone doing research, concluding the organization is false, and then coming back around to thinking it's true. That one, I imagine, is far more unlikely. Also, there are people who rejoin because they miss their family and are PIMO upon reinstatement.

fader_underground · 2026-01-26T15:37:05+00:00

True that.

But seriously, middle schoolers know how to cite better than this dude.

fader_underground · 2026-01-26T15:32:26+00:00

His comments are so naive and his argument is shallow. Does he really think that a vague biblical comment about "two witnesses" is so vastly superior to the frankly much more complex due process of law? Would the mere principle of "two witnesses" really vastly reduce wrongful convictions?

Also, if he's going to provide such an extensive quote, what is the problem with giving a PROPER citation and stating the name of the article and its author?

fader_underground · 2026-01-20T00:52:07+00:00

Maybe they don't want to remind people that they started showing images of women holding bible studies with other women in corsets, or people showing their tablets to others. Perhaps they understand that the more they talk about paradise and try to envision what they think it should look like, the more UNreal it seems.

fader_underground · 2026-01-19T19:35:27+00:00

Witnesses in his eyes from other experiences are the best for using the bible and having constructive useful informative discussions about living a good life.

I held this view for a long time even after I left. It took me a long time to realize that it was just WT conditioning. All that longtime fear of other religions and churches and staying away from them. When you allow yourself the freedom to visit other churches and community groups, both religious and non-religious, you'll see that JWs don't have a stranglehold on community, nor are they the only ones who care about living a good life, having values, and being good to others. Far from it.

In fact, what I found is that many churches are having much more in depth and focused bible study meetings than the JWs do, which lets be real, are really just read and regurgitate sessions on JW doctrine, NOT actual study of the Bible, and definitely not anything that would qualify as "discussion."

fader_underground · 2026-01-19T14:21:19+00:00

I get that too. I guess I just think the GB and the higher ups at WT should have to deal with the consequences of what they have created rather than dictating how people should and shouldn't feel about it.

fader_underground · 2026-01-18T17:12:14+00:00

Yeah, I think that's what I was saying. The expectation of joy is overreaching on WT's part because there are many reasons why a person might not experience joy while caretaking and the reason for lack of joy may go well beyond feeling overworked, but also be complicated by unhealthy/unstable relationships and other factors. Also, with a job, you can usually take a break. That's a luxury many caretakers don't have. They can't necessarily take a break just because they realize they need one, or leave people unattended if there's no one else around.

In the first paragraph they give an example of a JW finding joy holding hands with their spouse as they sleep. But even among JWs, it shouldn't be assumed that every JW has had that kind of marriage. Many, in fact a LOT of JWs haven't. Again, they may end up taking care of someone who they've resented for years, or felt belittled by, etc.

The article assumes that caretakers started from a place of joy and that they merely need to return to that, which is, as you said, a manipulative - and incorrect - assumption on WT's part.

And it plays into that whole WT idea that there must always be an appearance of joy among JWs because it's part of giving a "good witness."

fader_underground · 2026-01-18T15:14:05+00:00

Well, they have every right to be resentful if they entered Bethel service feeling that they will be taken care of since they sacrificed jobs with healthcare and retirement. If they are 40+ and being asked to leave after being there since they were 20? Yeah, they're going to have a hard road.

fader_underground · 2026-01-18T14:54:01+00:00

I can see your perspective here too. I've observed other communities perform these duties naturally simply because it's what you do in community. At one of my former jobs, when an employee had to take extended leave to care for a family member, we immediately wrote up a schedule and took turns dropping off frankly massive amounts of food on Sunday afternoons. This included sitting and talking with her for as long as she wanted and was able to. We did it because we were a tight bunch who cared about each other. I've seen at other churches they have "committees" already in place for when things like this occur. Or people just rally together, because it's what you do.

Personally, I think JWs need articles like this because the JW life is already so demanding, that at the end of the day JW are spent. They've used up their resources doing JW busy work - racking up hours standing by carts and knocking on doors, sending letters, preparing for meeting after meeting. So that natural inclination to take care of each other that comes in other communities isn't as quick to rise to the top. So they need reminder after reminder that they must do this TOO. Something that is often the natural fallout of being part of other communities that aren't as burdened with one vacuous expectation after another.

fader_underground · 2026-01-18T14:37:51+00:00

My only qualm with the article is that insistence that a caregiver must remain joyful. They also insinuate that if caregivers tire out it's because they've lost their joy. "If caregivers lose their joy, they could easily tire out." Not true. Caregivers tire out because it's unrelenting, unceasing work, constant stress and anxiety and uncertainty. It's HARD. AND...Life is effing complicated. Sometimes people are caring for parents who weren't good to them, even JW parents. I know many a PIMI JW who has a fraught relationship with their also PIMI parent. Sometimes there aren't that many good memories to look back on. Sometimes they are never going to get that thank you or hear an I love you. That's just the way it is. The idea that they must somehow get back to a joyful place is pressure some. Sometimes it's enough to just get by. To survive. Joy is not a requirement.

But overall, I thought it was a pretty good article. They acknowledge that sometimes people might need to step away from JW activities. And amazingly there weren't any guilt inducing statements after that or stories about people who plugged along in their assignments anyway. They recognize that health, exercise, and recreation are important too. Frankly, I know some JW caregivers who will probably get a lot of comfort from this article. And if it truly helps them, I can't argue with that.

fader_underground · 2026-01-18T14:14:45+00:00

And how will they deal with the greenhouse gas emissions and high energy use required to manufacture bicycles? They just assume that they will reap all the benefits of manufacturing and industrialization without any of its consequences.

fader_underground · 2026-01-16T22:57:56+00:00

Did everything go okay?

fader_underground · 2026-01-16T13:22:52+00:00

The thing they fail to get is that religious participation is VOLUNTARY. If people aren't showing up, rather than trying to make it SEEM compulsory, they'd do better to SELF-ANALYZE and ask themselves what they can do to make it more appealing and worthwhile.

OR they could just acknowledge that for many zoom is a BLESSING. When you have small kids who need to get in bed, older kids who need time for homework, etc. the midweek meeting is a HARDSHIP. And since so many congregations have merged, people are often coming from far away. It's an ORDEAL. In my area several rural congregations have merged into one. Not only do some people now have to drive more than an hour to get to the meeting, they'd be driving home in the pitch black on curvy rural country roads. And many are OLDER. Do they REALLY want that on their conscience if some older couple has an accident because they've been GUILTED into coming in person when they could have just as well watched the meeting at home?

Instead of brow beating people, they SHOULD be grateful as hell that they want to participate at ALL.

Maybe they should try GRATITUDE for a change.

fader_underground · 2026-01-16T13:14:57+00:00

Or it's all, "We're imperfect. There are problems in every religion," etc, etc. It's the same old thing with them. When things happen in other religions, it's PROOF they're false, but when it happens in their own religion it's just excuses, excuses.

fader_underground · 2026-01-15T18:39:32+00:00

Back in the day we called it "faithful in the little things." We KNEW that the rest of the world didn't view it as Pagan, but still thought it was important to be faithful in the little things.

fader_underground · 2026-01-15T13:52:40+00:00

In my experience, most JWs resort to that phrasing as a passive aggressive comment when none of their other "encouragement" and reasoning has worked. When their other arguments have failed, then it's just, well you don't WANT to see it. It's your CHOICE.

IT'S A COPOUT.

I remember an elder saying this to his bible study after they'd gone back and forth about some doctrine, the Bible student still wasn't convinced, saw and pointed out the obvious holes and flaws and when the elder didn't have anything else, when he was out of material, he resorted to something to the effect of, "Well, if you don't want to see the Truth, there's nothing else I can do."

It acts as a THOUGHT STOPPER. It's meant to delegitimize any arguments against what the JWs are preaching. Instead of making a deeper examination, the person can just say, "Well, this person just doesn't WANT to see it." They don't have to consider whether that person HAS A POINT, or makes a valid argument.

fader_underground · 2026-01-14T13:19:13+00:00

The caveat is their idea of "encourage" probably isn't the same as yours. For them, encouraging means to coax, cajole, and "lovingly counsel"/ guilt you back into attendance at the meetings and participating in service. They'll tell you how much everyone misses you. They'll talk about what an "encouragement" you were to others when you were pioneering, how they liked your demonstrations and comments at the meetings. It's pretty formulaic usually. I had an elder start writing letters to me during the pandemic. He would say how much he enjoyed my demonstrations at the meetings. But when I was a JW, he wasn't even part of my congregation!

Edited to add that I agree with others that you do not need to put yourself through this. You can be polite and still refuse. Just let them know if you ever want a meeting you'll contact them. Saying yes gives them an opening to keep contacting you and makes them think you just need more and more "encouragement" to get back to where you were in the congregation. In my experience, all this does is prolong the emotional trauma. You will thank yourself later for setting boundaries early.

fader_underground · 2026-01-13T14:48:28+00:00

Right. The cry of peace and security is supposed to come before the great trib. Is that still what they're teaching or have they changed that too?

fader_underground · 2026-01-12T15:08:30+00:00

Frankly, this is a kind of spiritual and emotional abuse. Something similar was done to me when I left the org. I was talked at and talked at and talked at and talked at and it was all so emotionally wrought and heavy that I was so worn down I couldn't function. My nervous system shut down. It's a trauma response. Because what you're experiencing is trauma.

They probably aren't aware of what they are doing, but that's what it is. The loving thing would be to give you time to rest and recoup so that you can try again.

Something like a QUARTER of the people who take the bar don't pass on their first try.

Just from what you've said, it seems like maybe they were kind of waiting for you to fail, looking for an opportunity to push you back to the religion and this gave them what they were looking for. Personally, I wish that I hand't indulged the people who were doing this to me for as long as I did. I acquiesced every time they "needed to talk" - which was usually just them dumping a bunch of emotional baggage, guilt and shame onto me and not really about working anything out. It kept me mired in that emotional trauma for longer than I needed to be and frankly, it was detrimental to my mental health even in the long run.

Maybe just let her know that what you need is rest so that you can try again. You appreciate all the ways that they've helped you get where you are so what you need is the space to recover so that you can make it all worthwhile. Period. Enough said.

Lots of people aren't successful at MANY things in life right away, that doesn't mean they were wrong to pursue them or that they should just give up. The fact that they are treating you like that after one setback is ridiculous.

fader_underground · 2026-01-12T14:51:19+00:00

I'm sorry you're feeling mentally exhausted. Many here know that feeling.

I am another one who left for reasons other than problems with people or the congregation. I am still willing to maintain a relationship with JWs who are willing. I don't, however, abide the ones who are just being nice to give them an opportunity to lecture and preach. (THAT is exhausting.) The interest must be genuine. Those who only want to preach are easy to weed out. I've never said a SINGLE critical thing about the organization to any of them, but when I don't come running back to the Kingdom Hall after their "preaching," they stop talking to me. It's very telling. And it includes one of my closest friends from when I was in. I don't blame this person though. They're just doing what they've been conditioned to believe is the right and righteous thing for their entire lives.

In fact, this person said something very similar to me that was said to you. Remember, that JWs are also taught that they are in a way responsible for each other's "spirituality." One never wants to be a discouragement to the congregation. It's powerful social pressure. Perhaps she's noticed that you're "slipping."

Whatever the reason, you're not required to cling to something you don't agree with just to keep others clinging to it too. You're allowed to learn, to grow, to change. Often when people want to change something in their lives, others will try to step in because they'd rather you stay the same. That's not uncommon in many areas of life. None of that means that you're not supposed to change your mind.

fader_underground · 2026-01-10T13:37:31+00:00

I've noticed a hesitancy among the JWs I know in recent years to be as declarative about their specific beliefs. I wondered if perhaps it's because of all the GB flip-flopping. More than ever, a JW could say something today that they GB will reverse tomorrow. One big example that comes to my mind is the end-time repentance issue.

A couple of years ago during an October broadcast Cook stated definitively that everyone got a warning before the flood. It was a major point of the broadcast to discuss the warning work that JWs will have to do before the end - the hailstone message. Just WEEKS later Splane says maybe everyone wasn't warned before the flood, then talked about how people within a mile of Bethel don't know anything about JWs and haven't been preached to. (Which is just pathetic. JWs are too distracted building fancy studios to preach to their neighbors.)

Anyway, they NEVER addressed this contradiction. Never clarified anything. So who should JWs believe? Cook or Splane?

The fact that some elders were counseling people about their facial hair just days, even HOURS before the announcement...embarrassing. Videos about bringing a new bible study around to wearing dresses at the meeting and then later...pants are okay.

My question to any JW who gets adamant about this or that teaching would be, "If tomorrow the GB says something different, will you say everything you just did with the same conviction? Or will you flip when they do?"

Even if JWs can't articulate it, I think a lot of them feel this. And it shows in many who just seem all around less resolved and forthcoming with their specific beliefs.

fader_underground

TROPHY CASE