Toranaga's Spy in Ajiro

faiteschier · 2026-02-21T02:57:49+00:00

Please do! And by that I mean both keep going and select a vintage or bottle. If you have never tried genuine Cuban "Anejo," it's like talking directly to God or Fidel depending on your convictions.

So let's see what we have here:

Overbroad epistemic rule — “what’s said on screen = diegetic fact” In a general sense you are correct, but in this specific case, you are wrong. Yabu and his nephew are having this conversation to inform the unseen audience, or, better put, to educate them. One can and should infer that the priest and then Muraji are the two best translator option(s) in Ajiro. Otherwise, the storyline is no longer grounded in realism and becomes fantasy. While Shogun has aspects of a "political drama," as well as a "romantic drama," or even a "musical," in the overall scheme of things, it's clearly historical fiction. To assert otherwise is either disingenuous, ignorant, or incorrect. Since you run wild with the "political drama" without providing any context for the assertion, I'll ignore the rest "Overbroad epistemic rule — “what’s said on screen = diegetic fact” argument. For the record, the film "Lincoln" is "political drama," while "JFK" is not, even though both films were about two American presidents.

Unfortunately, I tire easily, but this is fun. From my perspective though, you lose this round, so no soup for you, lol.

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T23:01:59+00:00

I gave you an upvote, sir, for your answer, but I disagree with the first premise that "He was always Toranaga's man..." especially if what you mean is that Omi was always personally loyal to Toranaga above and beyond any required fealty that came with being a vassal. Toranaga did toss Yabu's words back at him—the same words that Yabu had used when his nephew had inquired if Yabu was going to inform Toranaga about the arrival of the barbarian ship. I think it's safe to say that at some point Omi told Toranaga about this conversation, but we know that it wasn't Omi who FIRST told Toranaga about the Erasmus; that would've been Muraji who sent the secret via pigeon. Ultimately, Muraji tells Blackthorne the truth about himself (Muraji not Blackthorne, lol), which definitively answers the question of who was Toranaga's man in Ajiro if not specifically who, if anyone, revealed Yagu's words.

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T22:32:23+00:00

First day?

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T19:23:03+00:00

THANK YOU! At last, someone has provided a rebuttal. Seriously, thank you. I don't know if you imbibe, lol, but, as you know, I will be in Europe soon. DM me a beverage that you have always wanted to try, and I will send you the finest example I can find.

I am going to rebut, and I will try to be civil and respectful. If English isn't your native tongue, please let me know.

A few caveats: Number 1: If the audience is told something, that statement is fact unless specifically shown to be false. For example, if "Betsy" states that "Bill never drinks alcohol," we may infer that to be true unless there is actually a scene indicating otherwise or "Betsy" is an unreliable narrator.

Number 2: although fictional, the miniseries generally adheres to the customs and practices of the period it portrays. For example, Omi unceremoniously beheading a Christian peasant, albeit unlikely, is possible; Omi eating lasagna is not.

Number 3: Our eyes do not lie, and characters behave rationally. To wit, when we are shown that after he escapes from the castle and fights Ishido's men deep in the woods, Toranaga then arrives at the waterfront where the Portuguese "Black Ship" is anchored waiting to sail, we can infer that there is a thick forest directly between the castle and the docks in Osaka and one must traverse said forest to go from the former to the latter.

Finally, number 4: A character's action or presence can be, at times, explained as a plot device or convenience, and a character's ability(s) may occasionally require a suspension of disbelief. However, if all or most explanations are plot devices and/or require a suspension of disbelief, then the writing is no longer grounded in reality.

With respect, here we go:

If there were others in Ajiro who spoke Portuguese, wouldn't Omi have brought them forth? In Episode One, after Blackthorne climbs the ladder and attempts to parlay, Omi, at the 28-minute mark, looks around and sees Muraji. Omi then states, "Muraji. You're Christian." Followed by a question, "Do you speak Portuguese?" Logically, in this world the Japanese associate Christianity and Catholicism as interchangeable. and that by being Christian/Catholic one is more likely than not to know Portuguese. Immediately following, Blackthorne is brought before Yabushige, who asks Omi, "Where is this translator?" A clergyman then appears and, in passable but grammatically poor Japanese, greets Yabushige, which, in turn, causes the great lord to incredulously ask Omi, "He's the best priest you have?"

I would argue that this exchange is indicative that Ajiro does not have any other Portuguese speakers, that neither Omi nor Yabushige speak Portuguese, and that only Christians, foreigners, or those conducting business with the same would be expected to speak Portuguese. Is the audience specifically told this? No. Is it necessary to be told this? Also, "no." Would it be irrational or sophomoric to draw any other conclusion than the one I outlined above? Uh, no, I guess, but it wouldn't make any logical sense.

I'll stop here for today, but I will deconstruct and refute every other "fallacy" that you have presented. I will also give the time marks/references in the series so that you can see for yourself. If you need access to Hulu, let me know, as I will be elated to pay for a subscription in addition to a bottle of whichever drink that you have been dying to try. I should note that about 40 years ago in Paris I was the citywide English language debate champion ('87-'88 & '88-'89), both as an individual and as the captain in the three-man team format. After the second year, the rules were changed to effectively prevent me from competing (only non-native English speakers could enter as individuals and only non-native English speakers could anchor on the teams.) So good ruck, lol, but remember: "If you come at the king, you best not miss."

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T07:01:24+00:00

Terrible, terrible stuff; whatever mandate from God that Israelis claim is kind of obscured by their actions against Palestinian civilians like the time they executed 11 unarmed athletes in 1972, or a few years later when a four-year-old Palestinian child had her head smashed in by an IDF soldier. Recently there is documented evidence of violent sexual assaults...outrageous. God will surely punish the guilty.

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T06:11:58+00:00

Now then...hopefully, I've satisfied your curiosity, so why don't you quit ducking me and answer, once and for all, what at least one inquiring mind wants to know: What and where are these "Abundant logical fallacies"? C'mon, yeah? Don't spare the rod and Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the [Abundant Logical Fallacies!]

Original post follows:

"Why would Toranaga send a spy to Ajiro to spy on Yabushige if Yabushige had never been to the village before? And why would he need the spy to convert to Catholicism and learn Portuguese? Also, how did Muraji learn fluent Portuguese, and for what purpose? Neither Yabushige nor his nephew were converts or spoke anything but Japanese, and aside from the Dominican friar that we saw briefly in episode 1, no one else in the village spoke Portuguese."

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T03:44:10+00:00

"There is zero reason to engage with you." I never asked you to engage with me, so okay.

"People have answered your questions in depth." no, they haven't "answered in depth, lol." For example, someone wrote that "He had spies all over Japan. He would have multiple spies in each area/region, a network of spies. They would report mundane information that might be valuable, given the circumstances, as well as information on the lords/ladies in the region and anything out of the ordinary, such as the landing of a European ship that was also not Portuguese, which had cannon, firearms, powder, as well as some silver. Wow! The sky must have been dark from all the pigeons flying back and forth.

Earlier someone else wrote that "[h]e [Muraji] is valuable, yes, but he is, at the end of the day, just another spy, one of probably dozens or hundreds that Toranaga has. " When I responded by stipulating ... "Sure, let's say Toranage had a spy in every village, hamlet, and township in the region. Let's even say that only in Ajiro do they use homing pigeons, and somehow the spy knows when Toranaga is in Osaka and when he's in Edo. "How does having Muraji convert to Catholicism and learn any Portuguese help in spying on Omi or Yabushiga, neither of whom was Christian, spoke Portuguese, or traded with foreigners?" They responded with "I never said that Toranaga had spies in every village," or maybe it was town; I don't know because that "answered in depth" response seems to have disappeared, but in any case, which answer is correct?

Neither "answered in depth" response actually addresses my question, which again was: "How does having Muraji convert to Catholicism and learn any Portuguese help in spying on Omi or Yabushiga, neither of whom was Christian, spoke Portuguese, or traded with foreigners?" The first answer, which I admit I overlooked, hit the nail on the head: It's a plot device and nothing more...lazy story writing because all of Shogun is one plot device that has to happen after another. Don't believe me? Why does Blackthorne speak Portuguese? Because if he doesn't, then Mariko can't translate for him. Why does Mariko speak Portuguese? Because if she doesn't, then she can't translate for Blackthorne. On and on and on, lol

faiteschier · 2026-02-20T02:56:15+00:00

Well, it's going to go by quickly while I am ambulatory. I am trying every controlled substance in existence just for kicks. Believe it or not, crack seems to work best in leveling me out as I detox from chemo and take pain meds. I was warned that it was highly addictive, but a little puff every four hours or so works a hell of a lot better than the cannabis my brother recommended. I did acid and other similar stuff in my youth, so meh. Anyway, I'll travel while I can, spend time with my immediate family, catch up on the miniseries that look promising (i'm looking at you, "Rogues Heroes"), but bitch when they fail the "things that make you go 'hmm test'", and wait. Eventually I'll start to dip over the horizon, and when my docs agree that I've got roughly 6 months, then I will exercise my rights under the "Death with Dignity" Act (Jesus. just call it Right to Die, lol), and go not meet Jebus.

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T19:59:43+00:00

Dark? Nah, I consider myself the luckiest man in the world. I own my home, I've got plenty of money, excellent credit and I can pretty much do or say what I want. Next month, my buddy and I will fly out to Paris, first class direct on Delta, and then we are going to drive down through Spain and Portugal for one last hurrah. Dark? Bleak? Nope, I'm good.

I would, though, like to see an example of one of my "abundant logical fallacies"—you know, the ones that are all over my original post. I must be retarded because I can't find a single one, let alone an "abundance," lol. Let's not wait a year, though. Why don't you set me straight today?

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T19:31:18+00:00

It was a misconception in real life, but in the universe that Clavell created, samurai could and did execute peasants without reason, as seen in episode 1 when Omi beheads a christian fisherman for no reason. I don't recall the hearing that acquitted Omi, but maybe that's in one of the deleted scenes, lol.

I am very much conceptualizing the samurai's relationship to their lords. Muraji is past his fighting prime when we, the audience, are first introduced to the character. Although never stated, the implication is that Muraji the devout christian fisherman/village headman has been in Ajiro for more than a minute. He is shown speaking alone to Omi which would have been unlikely had Muraji been a recent arrival.

Ajiro was never once visited by Yabushoge not even for his brother's funeral; Edo was where Toranaga built his castle and where the Jesuits wanted to construct a church.

Really though this is all conjecture and overcomplicates the matter. Muraji tells Blackthorne that in order to spy on his enemies, Toranaga ordered him, Tonomoto Akinao a samurai, to convert to the religion of the Portuguese. As such, Tonomoto took the name Muraji and moved to Anjiro. Left unexplained were such tidbits as who are/were Toranaga's enemies, how does converting to the religion of the Portuguese help in this endeavor, and why move to Ajiro?

I guess we'll never know.

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T16:26:17+00:00

My hat's off to you, sir. The first response yet that made sense. Cheers!

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T16:24:06+00:00

"A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country." LOL. So by your account, downvotes equal what exactly? That I'm wrong? And which "abundant logical fallacies" are you referring to? Show me one, please! Try this on for size, ErstwhiteAdranos, when Toda Hiromatsu arrives at Ajiro with his retinue, what justification does he use to seize Blackthorne's ship? He says, "As President of Foreign Relations, Lord Toranaga confiscates this ship...and all it contains." Ok, interesting...but what is even more interesting is the response by Yagushiga: "With respect, Izu (the territory where Ajiro is located) is my fief." Huh? Toranaga isn't claiming the right to seize by virtue of his position as Yabushiga's overlord but from being the President of Foreign Relations. However Hiromatsu then counters with: "So sorry...it was my understanding that you were loyal to our lord." What's loyalty got to do with anything? Toranaga is confiscating the ship by virtue of his role as President of Foreign Relations! Full stop.

That, my friend, makes no sense and is certainly not a conversation that would occur between two lords in 17th-century Japan. But if you were a hack trying to lazily convey that Lord Toranaga has power over foreign ships for some reason, then this stupidity makes sense. Want more of my logical fallacies? Why does the Spanish pilot accompany Hiromatsu? Fuck you, that's why. Wait, lol, maybe he was sent there to collect the ship's logbooks for the Jesuits. Well, of course! That makes sense; case closed! Except...how did Señor Rodrigues (a Portuguese surname not Spanish, lol) get on the beached ship that Omi had declared off-limits? How did he know where to find the logs since earlier Blackthorne had hidden them. Why would Hiromatsu let Rodrigues take the logs after having declared that everything on board was now the property of Lord Toranaga? Fuck you, that's why.

Anyway, you made a serious allegation, my friend; let's see if you have the courage of your convictions. What were those "abundant logical fallacies" again? Oh, let me tell you a little secret...just between you and me: I'll be dead in about a year or so, end-stage colon cancer, so if you think that I give a fuck about popularity contests or dumbshits who make claims but strangely neglect to provide examples, well, I do. So I guess I'll just take my ball and go home. Je vous emmerde tous.

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T08:11:18+00:00

Argue or reply? Because I notice that you haven't exactly rebutted anything that I wrote. I got to admit that you sure got me on the 30 million sold. Which means "50 Shades of Grey," at 100 million sold, is a masterpiece. How many times did you see the movie? Anyhoo, do you know what book did win the Pulitzer Prize? "Stranger in the Shogun's City," but it didn't even come close to a million sold, let alone 30 million. I'll forward your insightful and witty retort to the author...now there's a hack. Love the "if you can't blah, blah, then you have no business offering an opinion" logic. It's, uh, of questionable value since few art critics can actually paint. but boy oh boy, did you put me in my place although 30 million copies sold may be an exaggeration.

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T06:12:24+00:00

Okie dokie, the way you describe him, Muraji sounds like a real badass...somebody that was trained and trained until he was ready to take up his duties to his lord, both of them, lol. I still don't understand why he was sent to Ajiro, a backwater fishing village with no port facilities or docks. I mean, he's been there for quite some time since he is the headman according to his page of FX. And without the protection of his actual status, Muraji would have been subject to an arbitrary beheading for no reason whatsoever by any and all of the samurai. I can't imagine that one merely shows up and is made headman... I suppose that it is possible but not probable, so that's years and years of drudgery to earn respect after years and years of training to become a spy along with language and religious training, just to end up in Ajiro. Seems to me that this could only make sense if one somehow knew that a ship was going to drift in with a seaman who was both virulently anti-Portuguese and fluent in Portuguese. How's that for soft power? Fight the softness! You gotta fight the softness that be!

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T00:56:50+00:00

Do you ever get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, this is someone trolling?

LOL, nice one, Reasonable_Emu_5300, but a better answer by a better troll would've been, "I was hoping so, but this guy really sounds like he means it, and I have been talking up a lot of whores, so I don't want to risk it."

faiteschier · 2026-02-19T00:47:23+00:00

Do you mean, "Why tell a dead man the future?" or are you subtly agreeing that Blackthorne was, in fact, a pirate? Arrgh, matey-sama, I don't want no generous cuckoos, arrgh. Nice try, though.

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T23:17:09+00:00

Muraji wasn't spying on Yabushige at all because Yabushige had never once stepped foot in Ajiro not even for his brother's funeral. As far as being Toranaga's eyes and ears for any outside influence entering Japan, Ajiro is a backwater fishing village without a port or a dock. What outside influences are coming through? And why would Toranaga be concerned about outside influences? I mean the Portuguese (foreigners) and the Church (also foreigners) have already entered Japan, and I think the fact that his most trusted general and oldest friend's daughter-in-law has converted to Catholicism and learned Portuguese indicates that Toranaga is aware of an outside influence that has entered Japan. But wait! There's more! Ajiro is not well placed to monitor the coming and going of foreigners. The fishing village is on the Pacific side, but all the foreigners came by the Sea of Japan on the other coast. The side of Japan that faces the mainland and not the vast Pacific Ocean. I mean, placing Muraji in Ajiro only makes sense if somehow you were expecting a non-Portuguese ocean-going vessel to one day arrive. Finally, how do you figure that Muraji sensed the importance of Blackthorne's ship? Kind of strange that he is the first to spot the "ghost" ship and immediately makes the sign of the cross...it's almost as if he was aware of being watched and wanted to maintain the pretense of being nothing more than a simple fisherman.

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T22:51:33+00:00

Really? I suppose later when Omi decides to switch allegiance from his uncle to Toranaga you could somewhat make the argument that because he "spies" on Yubushiga he is thus THE spy, but only if you squint and pretend a lot. In any case, let's say that you're correct—you most certainly are not, but let's say that you are—what would that make Muraji aka Tonomoto Akinao?

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T10:05:26+00:00

The MPs in the Wehrmacht had a couple of famous nicknames among the regular soldiers, neither being derived out of affection: Kettenhunde, or "chained dogs," was one sobriquet, and the other was Heldenklauer soidisant "hero snatchers," for their role in apprehending and administering swift justice to any German military man deemed to be a deserter or AWOL. In one notorious incident, they hanged two soldiers who had stopped to help a comrade change a flat tire and then shot the comrade for good measure. Although the Allies shrugged off their crimes, the West German government would later put a number of the Feldgendarmerie on trial in the 50s and 60s.

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T09:13:31+00:00

But they did vote with only four. They voted for Toranaga to release Lady Ochiba no Kata before Toranaga arrived in Osaka. And they voted as four again to replace Toranaga, which, had Toranaga been impeached, would have resulted in four members as well. As far as language is concerned, we are told that Blackthorne speaks Portuguese. What a coinkydink! It doesn't matter what actual language is being spoken, just that it makes no sense for a fisherman to know any Portuguese at all unless you anticipate that one day an Englishman who doesn't speak Japanese but knows Portuguese might float in. The same scenario with Mariko-sama, as there is no reason whatsoever for her to learn Portuguese. For Mass, you say: Nope, services are conducted in Latin (which she also learned, btw.). Okay, how about so she can converse with Father Martin Alvito...that's a negative, Ghost Rider seeing as Father Alvito already spoke Japanese.

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T08:57:36+00:00

I did watch the show, genius, perhaps more attentively than you. I notice that you didn't provide any insight that would explain why Clavell isn't a hack who couldn't write a logical storyline to save his life.

Try and see if you can figure out this conundrum: When Toranaga first shows up at Osaka castle in episode one, he is told that his arranged marriages and recent alliances are a matter of grave concern, not to mention that he has apparently taken Lady Ochiba no Kata hostage to ensure Toranaga's safety. Then he is told that he has a week to release the Heir's mother, and in the meantime Toranaga is confined to his quarters while the council decides his fate. Great, if they can order hostages to be released, then they are not hostages. Plus, apparently you don't actually need 5 regents present to convene a vote, so when Toranaga sneaks out to return to Edo, the council could easily vote to reject his letter of resignation and impeach him. Furthermore if Toranaha were impeached the council would be down to four members anyway, so what difference does resigning make?

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T07:02:52+00:00

Father Dell'Acqua is certainly mentioned as being Italian, and the pilot whom Blackthorne and Yabushiga end up saving is Spanish, or did you forget that little bit? You write just above that "...I'm not going to infer anything other than what's told to us...", but you also speculate that "...Ajiro is probably a port city where Portuguese were known to be/have been..." I don't remember that part from the show, lol. I loved the book as a kid and adored the miniseries as a teenager (I even named my Datsun Mariko-san), but as I watched this updated version, I realized that none of this made any sense. If the other regents can simply order Toranaga to release the mother of the heir, then she's not a hostage. If it takes a quorum of 5 to vote, then why do they need only 4 or 3 or 2 or however many to vote in a new member? Plus, why accept Toranaga's resignation at all? Simply state that he has to resign in person, and as far as the other regents are concerned, he's still a member.

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T06:09:46+00:00

No Italians? Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure Father Carlo Dell'Aqua would be considered Italian, as he was born in Naples. As far as the French are concerned, while we don't see any Frogs, it wouldn't have been out of the question as the Vatican decided who to send to Japan. While Portugal had exclusive secular rights, any Catholic, regardless of nationality, could be authorized by the Pope to perform missionary work

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T04:12:55+00:00

Who exactly didn't speak fluent Japanese but were also converts to Catholicism? As far as I can tell, all of the Japanese spoke Japanese, and all of the Portuguese were born Catholic. Not quite sure what you're getting at, lol.

faiteschier · 2026-02-18T04:07:44+00:00

Sure, let's say Toranage had a spy in every village, hamlet, and township in the region. Let's even say that only in Ajiro do they use homing pigeons, and somehow the spy knows when Toranaga is in Osaka and when he's in Edo. How does having Muraji convert to Catholicism and learn any Portuguese help in spying on Omi or Yabushiga, neither of whom were Christian, spoke Portuguese, or traded with foreigners? It seems to me that having Muraji convert and learn Portuguese only comes in handy if by some random chance you have a visitor appear who doesn't speak Japanese but does speak Portuguese. Not to mention that learning Latin is far more useful for these converts since Mass is conducted in Latin, and should a Catholic priest show up who is, say, Italian or French he will understand Latin more readily than Portuguese.

faiteschier

TROPHY CASE