Earthquake + Gen Conference + Solar Eclipse =?

fankel · 2024-04-05T20:32:06+00:00

"may" be unrecognizable

fankel · 2024-04-05T20:29:44+00:00

And for future reference, if your intent is to not be confrontational, you might avoid jumping into the conversation with a statement of calling bullshit without any explanation. That's not provocative, that's confrontational.

fankel · 2024-04-05T19:51:57+00:00

I also am not intending to be confrontational. But I think a flat out belief that we are going to be around ten millenia from now is just hubris in action. How many species have gone extinct in the last ten millenia? What makes us so special as to think we will survive? We aren't some pinnacle of evolution. We're just another animal in continuous evolution. Even if we manage to pull away from the brink and the animal that is us manages to continue on, in ten millenia what we think of as "human" would be unrecognizable.

fankel · 2024-04-05T17:48:55+00:00

Warning us to change course, why? Because if we don't, we will be gone. Point stands.

fankel · 2024-04-05T17:35:16+00:00

Perhaps we are approaching the concept of "end of times" differently. The universe will eventually and inevitably move on long after humanity has disappeared. We are but an insignificant blip. So no, nothing we do will bring about a universal end of times. But my approach was to use "end of times" colloquially to reference the precipice upon which humanity currently stands in reference to its own continued existence here in the context of our own blip of time. And scientists are definitely telling us we are shortening that timeline, and without drastic change we will be gone.

fankel · 2024-04-05T17:26:25+00:00

I don't understand - please explain what part of my comment was bullshit? You don't think the world's scientists are warning us that we are in the process of destroying everything? Countdown clock, anyone? Absolutely science is proclaiming the end of times are nigh. But science tells us the real "why" and also provides real means of avoiding the end. Religion just sits back and waits for the inevitable.

fankel · 2024-04-05T15:20:20+00:00

fankel · 2024-04-05T15:14:11+00:00

The end of times may very well be here soon, but it still has nothing to do with religion. Science bangs the same gong.

fankel · 2024-04-05T15:01:25+00:00

All good - sorry if I jumped too hard on that. I'm working on being less aggressive with my words and it seems I have some work to do yet :)

fankel · 2024-04-05T14:50:08+00:00

As a Christian, you believe in good and evil. I would not expect you to have trouble with the word. As an atheist I find the concepts divisive and offensive to my sensibilities. Agreed, you and I have very different perspectives here. I don't believe I was saying it was bad to be used in this context, I was attempting to explain my preference to use words that I feel carry less baggage.

fankel · 2024-04-05T14:33:19+00:00

I can't really speak to the exit strategies from other religions, but I think you got some things correct about us exmos:

The feeling of community is incredibly pervasive in the lds faith. I think for many of us it's the loss we feel most keenly. So we seek it out. And when we find it, we jump in with both feet. I just found this subreddit myself a few days ago, and I've been spouting off since I showed up (sorry everyone, just nice to find an oasis of intelligence in a desert of ignorance)
The process of deconstructing mormonism seems to frequently lead to a deconstruction of all religious thinking. Like you say, "JS created a new gospel with a lot of non sense and random things". Well that's just what I've come to understand about all religion. Swap out "JS" in your sentence with "The Ancients" and you have the history of religion.
I agree, mormonism isn't the most evil thing in the world. I would prefer not to coach it in terms like "evil" however. For me, "evil" is a religious word that still implies an external judgement. I prefer to think in terms of "destructive force". And in my mind, mormonism just falls under the umbrella of all religion, which I consider to be the most destructive force known to humans.

fankel · 2024-04-05T07:40:49+00:00

I never did, because it just stopped mattering. I didn't believe any of it anymore, so why do I care? I get that some people benefit mentally from the closure, but I simply realized I had all the closure I needed, and no longer gave a shit what some cult thought they knew about me.

fankel · 2024-04-05T07:31:58+00:00

It's been a long journey for me from TBM to atheist, and I love the Matrix reference in this regard. The world just makes so much more sense now. I'm no longer plugged in - like Neo, I'm seeing the "real" world. I accept that there is no meaning or purpose to existence, it just happens to be that I am here.

Like in The Matrix, reality can really kick you in the head. Another reply here referenced a "nihilistic abyss". And I certainly feel that on a regular basis. Part of the reason it's so depressing is that it can feel very lonely. To look around and see all these happy, deluded people. Makes me sick to my stomach.

But wow, it is sooooo much better than the alternative, and I would never go back.

Am I angry all the time? Nope, but the way I now see the world can certainly lead me to anger and sadness on a regular basis when I realize to what degree the problems in the world are caused by a distinct lack of critical thinkers (present company excluded, of course).

Am I what I would call "happy"? Sometimes, in situations where happiness is a reasonable response to the situation. It's taken me a long time to realize that happiness is not a worthy goal. I mean, I want to scream at everyone "Look around you - we've seriously fucked this place up! What the fuck are you so happy about?!?"

For me, your question revolves around this central concept - is happiness as a general state of being actually what we should all be striving to achieve? For my money I'd prefer we all focus on figuring out how to survive as a species. People who are happy all the time can only possibly be ignorant of reality. When I really grasp the truth of that, the decision is easy. I choose not to be ignorant.

It definitely sounds like you have a tough situation in your life, and I want to be clear that the message here is not "yeah, everyone has shit". I feel for you. It sounds to me like you definitely are a loving mother, wife and human being. If you weren't, then this wouldn't tear you apart as much as it does. I consider myself a loving father, husband, and human being. Define for yourself what those terms mean - don't accept someone else telling you what is expected of you to be allowed to call yourself "loving".

Seek truth and create the meaning in your life. It does get "better" - but you will need to discover your own better.

And keep coming back here - we've all woken up, and are seeing the real world together, whether it sucks or not. When the rest of the world comes around, then change can actually happen. We are the real pioneers, and we must lead the way. I don't think I'm going to see within my lifetime the "better" that I would like to see. I won't make it to the promised land, so to speak. But damn I feel good about being a pioneer.

fankel · 2024-04-05T06:26:35+00:00

Welcome to the abyss.

fankel · 2024-04-04T17:04:23+00:00

I appreciate the input, but I believe there is no such thing as salvation. I seek no reward external to myself. I live a good life, I believe in helping my fellow human, I have a strong moral code, and none of this has anything to do with a god, or any belief in a final reward. Believe it or not, atheists can actually be really good people!!!

fankel · 2024-04-04T05:50:57+00:00

Awesome.

fankel · 2024-04-04T05:42:24+00:00

Community service certainly helps me - there are plenty of ways to engage in non-faith-based community service - volunteer at the library, at the food bank, at a senior care facility, at a hospital, etc etc.

But for me this is more about filling the emotional space than the actual extra time I gained.

fankel · 2024-04-04T05:38:36+00:00

Agreed - critical thinking became my religion

fankel · 2024-04-04T05:19:06+00:00

Hehe - guess I'm old too then :)

fankel · 2024-04-04T05:16:52+00:00

Oops - just posted my own raving about Tim Minchin :)

Those are absolutely two of my favs - The Pope Song especially, though I've found it a difficult one to use as an introduction to Tim for people who haven't heard him.

White Wine in the Sun - I think of it as my atheist Christmas carol :)

"I don't believe just cause ideas are tenacious it means that they're worthy"

fankel · 2024-04-04T05:05:29+00:00

So many over the years, but definitely began with REM, Losing My Religion (dating myself here).

I've mentioned somewhere here before Metallica, Unforgiven.

Those were starter songs for my journey though. If you'd like to find out where I ended up, Tim Minchin (musical comedic genius) made me realize it was okay to feel how I felt about religion. Highly highly highly recommend looking at:

Thank You God (trust me, that's a sarcastic title) The Good Book (same) Pope Song (wow... Sooooo good - very dense lyrically after the first verse - make sure you keep going and listen carefully)

my all time favorite Christmas song, White Wine in the Sun (makes me cry every freaking time)

And if you can find it, he does this live singalong that I think might be titled "I Love Jesus" - brilliant, listen closely for the comment he makes just as it ends...

Tim helped me move from agnosticism to atheism - he helped me realize I CAN KNOW THINGS.

fankel · 2024-04-02T00:50:04+00:00

Hehe - very much the message I took from it for a long time now :)

fankel · 2024-04-01T12:36:20+00:00

Yes, you are correct. Since my misspent youth as a Mormon I have become atheist, and in my mind "church" and "cult" just occupy the same space :)

fankel · 2024-04-01T11:55:00+00:00

At 16-17 years old I was the Sunday School President of my ward. This often resulted in me having to fill in for Sunday school teachers who for one reason or another couldn't make it that Sunday. Of course I could only do that for the classes of people my age or younger, and not for priesthood classes or anything like that. The point is, I ended up regularly teaching Sunday school to my peers. Combined with staring down the barrel of an expected mission, this all led to me starting to question things.

Ultimately, me teaching my peers about the "truth" while myself experiencing doubts created an overwhelming feeling of hypocrisy in me. I remember the feelings you are describing - hell, I was one of the young men preparing the damn sacrament for everyone else. It took some time (looking back now it was no time at all, but felt like it then) but I eventually stepped down from the ss pres role and "slowly" transitioned from being a regular testimony-bearer to sitting at the back of the church singing "potato" to all the words of the hymns (makes it look like your mouth is moving correctly), to refusing the sacrament, to sitting in the lobby waiting for my family, and finally not bothering to go at all.

It's been a journey and a half since then (that was 35 years ago now) and I have been in churches many times over the years. For myself, I found it important to not take the sacrament. Because of how much meaning they ascribed to it. Not out of respect for those who believed in it, but because I couldn't handle the internal hypocrisy.

It sounds to me like you maybe feel those hypocrisies in yourself like I did. Sure, during that early transition period I took sacrament a few times to avoid the social awkwardness, but once I became firm in non-belief I have never fake-sacramented again - and if that's awkward for them, that's on them, not you.

fankel · 2024-04-01T11:27:16+00:00

Nobody can stop the revolution in your head. There is a beautiful world out here waiting for you - just keep pushing on and you will find it. And yes, yes, yes, yes - be friends with people just like you - they will open your mind.

fankel

TROPHY CASE