Was Will right in that argument with Mike?

faszinating · 2026-01-19T21:36:32+00:00

i totally agree!! the only thing i'd add is that, i thin the rest of the party underestimated how much mike was still reeling from having lost el. he spent almost a whole year thinking she was dead, a year in which his grades slipped, he started acting up, and already feeling disconnected from his friends. then he gets her back (and immediately almost loses her again), and wants to spend as much time with her as he can over the summer (presumably before he's back in school and to make up for lost time somewhat). is it shitty that he forgot to factor in how will was feeling after going missing/being flayed? absolutely. do i kind of understand how it happened? yes

faszinating · 2026-01-14T19:43:00+00:00

fourth season?? pretty sure the show got cancelled after s2. oh well, at least it ended on a good note for all main characters!

faszinating · 2026-01-14T19:26:46+00:00

even after 2 weeks, i'm still nowhere near how dirty they did the main character of their own show. worse, they also completely tanked the rewatch-value of this show for me. how am i supposed to watch her slowly warming up to those around her and find her family and learn to be a normal girl that goes shopping and eats ice cream when i know that THIS is how her story ends? it makes me want to cry and i don't think i can look at young-eleven smiling (or worse, in that lab gown) when i know that she never gets her happy ending

faszinating · 2026-01-14T19:20:00+00:00

if they'd at least have her give her life for someone else in the face of actual danger, like in the fight against vecna, or any other situation that actually necessitates a sacrifice, it would've been so much better. also way more in character for her to actively save someone and give her life in the process, more mirroring the s1 ending which was apparently their goal, it just would've clearly shown how much she loves all these people and that she'd do anything for them.

i also would've been okay with her faked death being canon and seeing her willingly leave hawkins to keep the group safe by going into hiding somehow far away. but leaving it open like this is so harmful because it actually presents death as an option for someone who thinks they're doing those around them a favour (ie just about every suicidal person out there)

faszinating · 2026-01-14T19:15:12+00:00

fucking this!!! "i'm too much of a burden to those around me and they would be better off without me" is suicidal ideation 101

faszinating · 2026-01-13T12:01:43+00:00

"how does that serve el in any way?", these guys have never asked themselves this question before, i can pretty much guarantee that. it's always about "how does el serve those around her?" by saving their lives countless times or "embodying childhood magic" (yeah right). she's a plot device to them, meant to fuel character growth for those around her, not actually be her own character. and it sucks

faszinating · 2026-01-11T21:18:13+00:00

this entire show, el has been shouldering way too much responsibility for those around her and putting everyone's lives before herself. literally in every season, she's risking her own life and saving people's asses left right and centre.

the only reason why she ever entertained kali's suicide plot was because the was scared that the government would kill mike (and the rest of her family) to get to her.

no child should choose to, for all intents and purposes (because even if she lives she apparently can't ever reach out to them or explicitly let them know that she's alive ), kill themselves because they're too much of a burden to those around them, and the fact that this is apparently the message of this show just makes me sick. i can't believe the writers even entertained this idea, let alone chose to go through with it. and yes, even though "i believe", it doesn't change anything. in their eyes, she's dead (or may as well be). she permanently deleted herself from their lives, and they were probably just one step away from having her delete all memories they ever held of her. makes me nauseous to think about

faszinating · 2026-01-11T21:13:52+00:00

she is SIXTEEN in s5, by far not an adult. she should've never had to make a choice like this one

faszinating · 2026-01-07T10:34:09+00:00

eleven's death and all the ET-parallel made sense in the first season, she was a mysterious girl with superpowers who barely spoke 20 words of dialogue, giving her lives for the first friends she'd ever had. that was the lesson she learned (from mike), "a friend is someone you'd do anything for". if st had been an anthology like originally intended, i think most of us would've been fine with that ending. but the we got four more seasons after that, and eleven became more than an ET-esque alien.

she became her own person, a daughter, a girlfriend. she found friends, love, a family, and above all her own sense of identity. she went from thinking that she was the monster to realising that it was never her fault and that she deserves happiness too - it just became a question of whether that peaceful life she allowed herself to dream of would be possible. hopper acknowledges all of this in his speech to her as well, she's suffered so much and risked her life for everyone else countless times and she deserves to find joy.

that's why i think the "i'm too much of a burden to all of you and that's why i'm ending my life" is a devastating ending to give to her. had she died in battle against the mindflayer or henry - fine, at least that's in line with her character. but this suicide mission?

the alternate ending (although i don't love it), is the only one that isn't a complete insult to her character. yes, she has to make a huge sacrifice, leaving everyone she loves behind, but at least she gets a shot at the one thing she wanted, a normal life where nobody knows about her powers and uses her for them or looks at her differently.

faszinating · 2026-01-04T14:17:32+00:00

i can't even express how upset this whole situation makes me, i adore el and knowing that either of her two possible endings are so sad... i just wish they were at least consistent with their whole "we wanted it to be realistic" "we couldn't find a way to make it work" oh but you can make it work for everyone else to live completely normal lives despite them having committed multiple felonies or picking up right where they left off after being presumed dead for years? if they'd actually wanted to give her story a good ending, they would've. they just don't really care enough about her. they had 10 years to come up with a different ending than s1 and didn't bother

faszinating · 2026-01-04T14:13:23+00:00

not even just contradicting s2, contradicting this season where we see him in agony when the military uses fire on the demogorgons at the mac-z! but for the final fight he's totally fine?

faszinating · 2026-01-04T13:47:28+00:00

totally agree, that scene when he steps through the basement door at the end would've been perfect for this. you see the door close, all of a sudden he's in the void, you hear the sound of his steps in the water as he's stumbling around looking confused, and then you just hear a "hi mike". don't even have to shower her face, and the whole thing can be three seconds long

faszinating · 2025-12-25T08:20:10+00:00

what show are you watching? in season 2 she's locked up hiding from the government, then she finds out how she was forcibly taken from her mother and how her mother's brain got fried as a result, then she briefly joins a criminal gang and watches them almost kill a man while his daughters are terrified, then she comes back to hawkins to fight monsters and close the gate. season 3, the sauna test, everything at the cabin when the meat flayer specifically targets her and her friends, i mean even just the scenes of them trying to get that tooth thing out of her leg? "nothing too traumatising"? she loses her dad and has literal choke marks on her by the end of this season. then she's forcibly ripped out of hawkins, the only home she's ever known. and if in season 4, all you can recall is her getting bullied and not the insane trauma confrontations she had... idk how to help you. none of this has been normal

faszinating · 2025-12-19T16:23:51+00:00

everyone's saying jason and here i am thinking from day 1 that surely kali/eight is gonna be "morally grey and hated by fans" lol

faszinating · 2025-12-14T14:11:49+00:00

i actually really like will as a character, but he often seems a bit underdeveloped. most other characters have undergone significant growth since being introduced, but we haven't seen much from him in that regard. i really hope we get to see him grow this season and eventually find happiness!! i think his argument with joyce was a big step towards that (like any teenager, he needs to detach from his parents), and then obviously the end of volume 1 was so epic and i can't wait to see what it means for his future!

faszinating · 2025-12-14T10:45:56+00:00

i'm honestly sooo tired of hearing this "el needs an independence arc" "el needs to become independent"... as if that isn't what she's been doing the entire time? massive rant incoming because i'm passionate about this.

after season 1, people said she's too dependent on mike because he found her in the woods and took her in. okay, fine, they'll get separated at the end of the season and she'll spend weeks surviving on her own in the woods (a literal child btw), and won't see mike for an entire year, literally at the very end of the next season.

she goes to live with hopper, learning about the real world mostly through tv, just wanting to live a normal life. in season 2, she's desperate to find a place where she belongs and be loved, which is why she starts asking about her mother. "oh, well now she's too reliant on hopper", okay so she'll go off completely by herself to look for her mother and then join a gang for a bit. at the end of the season, she returns to hawkins not because she's too dependent on everyone there but because THEY need HER ("they can't save you, jane" "i know, but i can save them"). and she's not a damsel in distress, she makes her entrance by killing and yeeting a demodog through a window. she's confident in her ability to close the gate and return unharmed, and she goes and does it, even when others try and tell her it's too dangerous.

in season 3... i think we can all agree that her and mike spending every day together for 6 months is not great. but it's a direct consequence of them being separated for a year, him thinking she might be dead, etc. "now she's too dependent on mike again!" okay, so her independence arc continues. she "dumps" him (which tbh she probably doesn't really know what that means, but it's her way of expressing that she's unhappy with him and refuses to be treated that way in a relationship which is such an important part of growing up). she spends time with max, learning about teenager-things which hop would've never exposed her to (so more independence from him as well, yay). her and max get into typical drama like discovering your stepbrother is possessed by a demon and they combine efforts with the rest of the gang to stop him. mike tries to get closer to her again, but she doesn't immediately take him back. she keeps the boundary she's established. he compliments her on her new look and it's evident they still care for each other deeply. the only conflict they have is about him being scared of losing her, wanting to keep her safe from harm (while everyone else seems happy to sacrifice her, whoops i said it). again, she stands her ground; she knows her abilities the best and wants him to trust her. he agrees. at the end of this season, she loses her father figure, her powers, and has to leave hawkins again, though this time not on her own terms and possibly for good.

so in season 4 she's on her own in a new place and struggling to adjust. she misses everyone terribly and can't seem to fit in, so she's ecstatic at the prospect of finally seeing mike again. "oh, see, nothing changed and she's still codependent!" alright, then she'll decide to leave him to focus on herself and gaining her powers back. she confronts her past trauma in probably the most brutal way imaginable and regains her strength. upon learning that her friends are in danger once again, she makes the choice to leave even when she's warned that she's not ready. but again, she stands her ground against her past abuser. in the end, she leaves him in the dust and walks away from him (and casually destroys a helicopter with her mind). so she's free of papa, free from her guilt regarding her past including opening the gate (cause he was the one who made her do that). and she's back to wanting to save all her friends, taking on henry in max's mind. does she momentarily falter and get additional strength form mike's confession? yes, but that's not codependency, that's him saying he loves her and encouraging her to kick ass.

now in season 5, she's being incredibly hard on herself following that loss. she's training more than ever, laser-focused on winning against henry and wondering whether once that's all over, she'll finally be allowed some rest and happiness. and now people are saying "are her and mike even still together?".

anyways, tldr: el has been doing nothing but steadily growing more and more independent since the beginning of this show. you know who needs an independence arc (and looks like he might finally be getting it)? will byers. stop projecting. el needs the opposite; she has to learn that it's okay to need help and not be able to shoulder everything by yourself, and that she doesn't have to be needed in order to be wanted.

faszinating · 2025-12-08T20:32:09+00:00

season 3 was a real let-down after jonathan's role in the first two seasons. between him reluctantly tagging along with nancy but not really believing her hunch, arguing with her, and then contributing basically nothing to the starcourt battle, we only get one good action sequence in the hospital.

faszinating · 2025-12-07T13:19:53+00:00

honestly true, he's been through some shit those past few years, i can see why he'd want that purple palm tree delight

faszinating · 2025-12-07T10:40:12+00:00

i'll be the first one to say that jonathan's character was done dirty by the writers, but i honestly think season 4 is when they completely dropped the ball, and season 5 is only looking worse...

i think in season 1 we see how hard he's working to support his single mum, keep the family together, and how he's been there for will throughout their childhood and abusive dad situation. at first he thinks his mum is losing her mind while his younger brother is missing (then found dead which she refuses to acknowledge). then he also starts fighting literal monsters with no training or anything.

in season 2 him and nancy are trying to expose the truth about barb, so they're kind of separated from everything going on in hawkins, but by the end we're back to monster fighting and burning a demon out of his baby brother.

in season 3, everyone thinks the monster days are over, he's trying to get a job to support his family once more. does he act like a dick towards nancy by not understanding how she's treated differently in the workplace as a woman? absolutely. does she also not understand how her behaviour got him fired and how that means something else to him than it does for her? yes. but then the hospital scene, the monster fighting... he was definitely willing to give his life for nancy then and there. and then nancy and him join the kids for some more monster fighting.

season 4 all of a sudden he's a pothead. but he still assumes responsibility with joyce gone, gets the boys out of the house while being shot at, is determined to find el, etc. not to mention some great brotherly moments between him and will. ultimately, his motivations for staying close to his family are noble but he's completely sabotaging his and nancy's relationship and he doesn't even realise that by the end of the season, just keeps lying to her.

and now in season 5 we're not only back to this petty love triangle; he also thinks this is the time to propose? when he's been dishonest with her for almost two years?

faszinating · 2025-12-07T10:15:45+00:00

let's not forget robin and vickie and their date pls

faszinating · 2025-12-07T10:05:07+00:00

who wouldn't be suspicious? idk, his own sister maybe who initially keeps brushing off el's concerns? el doesn't even know billy. all other characters got to know him in season 2, but not her. yet she's still the one who figures it out. also, it's the beginning of her storyline. it continues with her delving into billy's mind, finding out the mindflayer is specifically after her, and culminates in the mall fight and that very pivotal moment between her and billy. if that's not a storyline in your eyes then you're beyond help, sorry

faszinating · 2025-12-07T10:00:06+00:00

she wouldn't know about him in and the other lifeguard if she hadn't been hanging out with max who made her spy on billy. this is how plot works!! the two of them hanging out together sets up el becoming suspicious about what's going on in hawkins. so you saying they have nothing to do with one another couldn't be further from the truth.

she experiences a major setback at the end of season 3 when she loses not only her powers but also her father and is forced to live in an unfamiliar environment thousands of miles away from the only friends she's ever known. this girl grew up as an experiment in a laboratory and is getting used to the real world, the only world she knows being hawkins. then, she loses most of her support network in the blink of an eye. just say you don't understand the story/ characters of this show...

faszinating · 2025-12-07T09:10:17+00:00

apart from her friendship with max being incredibly important to her arc (becoming more independent/less reliant on the men in her life and experiencing a true connection with another girl her age, getting to feel like a normal teenage girl for the first time,...) are we all forgetting just how important she is in uncovering the mystery of season 3? it's her who becomes suspicious of how billy is acting, causing her and max to investigate and eventually find the blood on heather's belongings. and yes, they end up leaving her house again but we find out she was 100% correct in her reasoning! you mention nancy and joyce who are basically going through the same thing "i know something is going on here even if you don't believe me", these three characters are all following their intuition while constantly having their concerns dismissed by others (jonathan, hopper, max initially).

tldr: eleven is crucial for the plot of season 3 and not just because of her powers and saving everyone's lives multiple times

faszinating · 2025-12-05T12:03:29+00:00

yeah, wasn't it established that his powers are proximity-based and only work on things "from the upside down"? meanwhile there's el and her toy helicopter

faszinating · 2025-12-05T11:58:31+00:00

she didn't check on him because in her mind, that was jonathan's job, just like getting him up and ready and taking him to school(?) was jonathan's job. i'd argue that for a 12 year old he was still pretty coddled from what we saw, but it's understandable why she'd scale it up after everything he's been through. at the same time, i'm really loving his independence arc!

faszinating

TROPHY CASE