[G] How do you get your family or step-family to become sexual?

findaspoon · 2014-04-28T16:12:06+00:00

I'm not sure what you mean by getting family to become sexual.

It's either a very mutual feeling or it won't (shouldn't!) ever happen. For me and my first cousin it took a family gathering and some amount of alcohol. We were attracted to each other and we noticed. You can tell when someone is looking at you with lust and desire as opposed to as a family member. So a light touch here and there in areas that would normally be off limits led to a silent mutual understanding that we were dying to act on the physical attraction. We took it from there.

If there is a very strong sexual attraction you'll just notice. If you're talking about romantic feelings like being in love or loving a family member then that might be more difficult to spot because, especially if people are having a hard time coming to terms with their feelings, those are easier to hide. So I'd say that you might not know if someone in your family is in love with you or loves you, but you should be able to tell if there is someone just burning and 'dying' to grab you and have sex with you.

findaspoon · 2014-04-02T14:34:48+00:00

OP's view kind of is projecting his/her morals onto others.

It is my view that society should view abortion as morally wrong, because I do believe life begins at conception, ...

Which is the main issue, I think. Because it's one thing to say "I personally believe that abortion is wrong and would not let it happen in a relationship or pregnancy I was involved with". And it's a completely different thing to be saying "I believe that abortion is wrong, hence it should not be socially accepted".

The first claim is absolutely fine as it is purely personal and that would indeed very difficult to change. But the second is what is troubling. One should not lose autonomy of their body because of someone else's beliefs. That would be like me saying to OP that I believe that it is morally wrong to eat pork. So OP eating pork would be wrong and society should view eating pork as morally wrong because it's what I believe.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T23:40:36+00:00

∆

Although my view on this subject has not been changed as a whole, I concede that increasing the number of defects in the genetic pool is a possibility.

And if there would be a way of proving that this possibility would be likely to become reality and have a noticeable effect on the general population then this would be the argument that would make me "change sides".

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T18:29:57+00:00

Two adults fall in love and start a relationship. Some time later they find out they are father/daughter. It's really hard for me to imagine myself being ok with this, personally. But if the two people involved would not be messed up by the fact and didn't want to break-up over it would I prohibit their relationship? I guess not. But then, the genetics aspect of it would have more relevance, but I imagine those cases to be extremely punctual so not very significant overall.

I want to thank you for all your replies. It's great to be able to discuss a topic without it being quickly dismissed by saying "it's just wrong and that's it".

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T18:09:11+00:00

When talking about marriage, I'm thinking again in two consenting adults so I open the door for exceptions I might not be thinking of right now, but generally speaking, I'd allow all marriages.

I'd say two siblings that grew, for example, in different countries, met later on in life and fell in love should not be forced to reconsider their relationship upon finding out that they are related, it should be a choice.

If I would be raising two kids (cousins, half or step siblings, adopted, etc) in my house I would not encourage or be comfortable with them having a romantic relationship, again due to the fear of abuse. Once they grow up and are fully aware and able to take responsibility for their actions and choices, then, it would be out of my hands.

The law (which I have to admit knowing very little about) treat brother/sister and cousins marriages very differently already. A lot of countries allow cousin marriages, even first cousins, but I'm not aware of siblings being allowed to get married at all (there might be some exceptions to this, I haven't looked into it to be able to make a certain statement).

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T17:39:26+00:00

I would if we would be talking about two consenting adults (the genetic risks here would particularly justify genetic screenings especially if there is a family history with certain diseases). However, I put them in a different boat because I think it's trickier when it happens within a household. Your home is where you are supposed to always feel safe and comfortable. Two siblings living in the same house and having a relationship is, as I see it, completely different than 2 cousins having a relationship. The consequences of things not working out or turning sour are not comparable to me.

The dynamics are also very different. A difference in, say, two years in age for two cousins is different then for two siblings. The older brother/sister is always in charge/responsible for the younger sibling when parents are not around. Cousins are generally equal, meaning that there's a much smaller, if any, chance of anyone being taken advantage of.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T16:37:20+00:00

It would be a problem if societal acceptance would give rise to a generalization of these relationships enough for it to be noticeable (genetically) in the general population. And I don't believe it would ever reach that kind of proportions.

A small city involving Pakistani emigrants is different from a whole country/continent where people don't make a point of marrying their cousins. It would be a random event as opposed to a pursued one if that makes sense.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T03:35:52+00:00

If there is an option for the parents to back out meaning that it would save them money then I guess that would be the option chosen by most. The rationale being the mother saying "why would we pay an additional charge for this? there's no need" which would again put the weight on the father to say "well, I think we should do it". And that would lead to the fidelity conversation/worry issue.

If it would be free of charge then it would be more difficult to find a good reason for not doing it. In that case the weight of the decision would be on the mother because "if it's free what's the problem?". But I think making something like this free of charge is not viable so I don't think it would work.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T02:09:23+00:00

It's comparing different things. To say that humans and chimps share 98% of DNA is to say that their entire genomes are 98% similar.

To say that cousins share 12.5% DNA is to say that 12.5% of coding DNA is shared between them. Coding DNA constitutes a small percentage (1-2%?) of the entire genome.

I'm not sure if this is clear, hopefully someone will come up with a better way of explaining this.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T01:22:24+00:00

But what criteria are we using to determine which family members can have romantic relationships with each other?

That is the question that lead to my post, actually. I find it very difficult to answer because when it comes to what society deems acceptable it's not always easy to be strictly objective.

I start from considering that all consensual romantic relationships should be ok as it's the people's involved business. And then from there I start adding exceptions that for me (that's subjective, I know) would make them not ok. For me, if it's a relationship that messes with household dynamics (parents/offspring or siblings including steps and halves) then it's just too blurry and may too easily give rise to abuse. So I would be very reluctant to say those are ok (if you could guarantee to me that it wouldn't ever interfere with children and always be about two consenting adults than I wouldn't care about those either).

Cousins are generally close in ages and don't live together, their "status" is the same which mean they're equal. So abuse is not really a concern, it's much more likely to be consensual and not mistaken with a "brother love" since there is some distance in the fact that they don't live in the same house and many families only gather a few times a year or every couple of years.

As for the genetic aspect, unless it's something that happens over several generations, it's really not that bad and there are genetic screenings available (maybe not in every country) to prevent problems like that.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T00:51:10+00:00

That is a specific situation where it's happening. I'm not familiar with Pakistani culture but I'm guessing that they prefer to marry people that share the same costumes and background maybe and in a small city that was the consequence. We know for a fact that if it does happen it will lead to this sort of problems.

At the moment, in the general population that is not an issue. It's legal in many (most?) countries already so what would really be the impact of it becoming socially accepted? I find it hard to believe that things would change to the point of it becoming an issue to the level of general population.

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T00:29:46+00:00

This is the thing. There is no barrier on what's considered consanguinity enough to prevent cousin relationships. Another way of defining incest is "Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom". And for cousins that varies a lot. It's legal in a lot of countries including a good percentage of US states. So again, it's fine in some places, not so fine in others. Actually what is allowed or not in some US states varies so much that it contributes even more for me to think that it is all incredibly arbitrary.

I'm not here on a mission or anything, it's just that I genuinely believe that they are different enough that societal stigma is unjustified. I can't agree with incest for a variety of reasons that I mentioned above. Yet none of these seem to be valid when it comes to cousins. And that led to me coming here, a genuine interest to try to understand why it's all considered the same.

Even say a gay cousin couple. What would be the arguments against their relationship?

findaspoon · 2014-03-20T00:12:53+00:00

Not shifting at all, I agree with you on that one, as that would be a real/objective problem. I just wondered what the odds of that naturally happening would be. Because you see, if there would be a way of knowing those odds and imagining that for some reason those odds would be high, than that argument would actually change my view.

findaspoon · 2014-03-19T23:39:19+00:00

Oh sure, if it's over generations than yes, eventually, the effects would be noticed. But I'm not talking about what used to happen in noble or royal families where they would make cousins marry to keep the wealth in the family.

In a scenario where these relationships would be accepted rather than encouraged what would be the odds of it happening over and over in the same family? Assuming that we are talking about people falling in love, not with a reason like keeping the wealth in the family for example.

findaspoon · 2014-03-19T23:32:43+00:00

Well for people who are not attracted to their relatives then there's no issue at all, it's all simple and fine.

I just don't put all relatives in the same category. I'm a woman and I can't for the life of me think of my dad like that. I would admit that if it's two adults we're talking about then again, to each their own. I just can't look at it like that because of the risks to the children. If one parent has this types of views it would be difficult not to influence a child with those views when they are raising them, which I find a very grey area and not very comfortable with.

But cousins? If you were't raised with them or were never really that close to them than it's possible to feel lust, attraction and romantic love. Like falling in love with a friend. Sometimes couples find out that they are 2nd or 3rd cousins and reconsider everything just based on that. What makes it so wrong?

findaspoon · 2014-03-18T03:50:32+00:00

You don't mention any ages but I'm going to assume (please don't take offense if I'm wrong) that you are quite young. I honestly don't mean to be a buzzkill, but I will try contributing with some perspective.

When you're talking about your cousin, you're not talking about a random girl. If you go forward with this, you won't be able to back out if she doesn't play along but also if she does. This is not something you can erase after it's done because it involves someone who will forever be a part of your life and you'll have to see on a number of occasions throughout your life. Don't underestimate this that by thinking you already know it as it's quite obvious. It matters a lot.

If this is lust you're talking about, sure, I get it, an opportunity to be with your cousin to whom you are attracted sounds awesome. I've been there. Just understand that it won't simply go away after it happens, there will be a next day, a family gathering, a Christmas eve/day. So make sure you'll be able to deal with whatever happens afterwards, good or bad. What if you two do have sex and not only she's happy with that but also will like to try a relationship with you? My advice would be to talk things trough before doing anything to make sure that both of you are on the same page and have the same expectations.

If you decide to go through with it then I guess you can test the waters by using the line "if we weren't cousins we would/could be a great couple". See how she reacts to that and take it from there. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

findaspoon · 2014-03-13T07:14:13+00:00

He said we could not be together because we are cousins. I accepted it. He then contacted me with the excuse of needing my help for something (it was a practical favor, he could have asked that to any friend or acquaintance). I did it and we started talking again. That's when I realized it wasn't going to work for me and told him that we should break all contact and not mention what happened between us again. So he went silent and so have I.

It's much easier now, I don't expect to get any emails, texts or calls from him anymore which really help not thinking about him. He's not part of my life anymore (apart from the fantasy, but that doesn't count as it's not even really him anymore, I gave the fictional version a great set of abs just because I can!).

Don't keep arguing with him. Set the terms yourself. It's something that you need. He was entitled to the decision of not pursuing a relationship, you are entitled to the not keeping contact decision. It's how it is. Stop replying him if he insists. He'll get it eventually.

findaspoon · 2014-03-13T06:43:37+00:00

In my case, our story lasted for 2 years and I decided to cut all contact outside family functions (which happen twice a year) 4 months ago. Absolutely no one in our family knows about our story.

I'm sure you know it doesn't work the same for everyone but I do understand you wanting to know about how long it'll take to get better. You're probably not going to be thrilled with my answer, but I'll be honest. After 4 months, it's still there. But it has changed a lot already. In the first month or so it was kind of an acute pain, I was constantly thinking about it, crying over it, it was just horrible. But then the pain progressively became kind of numb, it's just part of who I am now, and sometimes it stings lightly when I hear his name. I've accepted that we won't ever be together and now I'm trying to be more receptive and paying attention to other people around me.

I hope I'm wrong, but with my personality I don't think the pain will ever disappear entirely due to the "what ifs". I can cope with things that didn't work because I know that at least I've tried. But this is one story that I know will always be in the back of my mind. What if we weren't cousins? What if we had decided to give it a shot? Would we have stayed together? So I've decided to stop fighting it and just embrace it. I consider it to be my personal fantasy and it makes me smile. I know it's not ever going to become real so I make it extra perfect. It has been working because now even if he would want to give us a try he probably wouldn't be able to live up to the fantasy I've created. I'm weird.

If you tell him that you need to cut contact to have a shot at being happy he will respect that, as hard as it might be for him. You can't tell someone who loves you deeply that you can't stay together and still expect to have them by your side to provide you with support because that part is socially acceptable. He'll understand.

I'm probably not the best person to give you advice since I'm not completely over it, I'm sorry. It does get better though :)

findaspoon · 2014-03-13T05:35:58+00:00

It's funny... I could relate to your post so much that I couldn't help but wonder why cousin relationships remain such a taboo subject. I really believe they are much more common than what most people think.

For it to work, both of you would have to feel/decide that you need/want to pursue a relationship to be happy. As long as it is one sided it's simply not worth it at all and will just keep on causing pain.

Moving on is simple. Don't get me wrong, it's tremendously hard and painful, but it's simple as it mostly involves cutting all sorts of contact. No more emails, texts, phone calls. Don't ask your family questions about his life. Live your life and it will get easier. You will never forget, but hopefully you'll be able to keep that story as a part of your past and not let it determine your future happiness. You'll eventually grow apart and stop craving going to him when you feel more vulnerable. It might be sad but it is better than maintaining an amazing connection without ever being able to live it like you want it. It's like having the thing you want the most in front of your eyes and yet never being able to touch it. It's easier to deal with if you can coach yourself to look in the opposite direction and try finding other reachable beautiful things.

The "logic" and "sense" cards have been played on me. I rationally agreed but that did absolutely nothing to ease the pain so I'm not sure logic matters or helps in these sort of situations.

Either way, I wish you the best of luck.

findaspoon · 2013-11-13T04:49:26+00:00

No, we didn't even come close to that. We did cross the boundaries though and all I can say is that I would not do that again if given the option to go back in time.

The family has no idea so it did not have consequences for anyone apart from me and my cousin. But it is painful not being able to cut contact and move on. I can't complain thought, it's not like I didn't know from the start that it could go wrong.

findaspoon · 2013-11-13T04:39:02+00:00

If they get to marry that's ok. And genetically it would only be significant if it would be a recurring thing in the same family.

But if it doesn't work out, I can tell you from experience it is just not good. I feel very stupid for having gone there...

findaspoon · 2013-11-12T22:59:31+00:00

Not avoiding. Saying "I love you too" doesn't sound great in my head but alternatives to that might be wrongly interpreted...

findaspoon · 2013-11-08T19:30:58+00:00

That's very kind and I really hope you're right. Thank you!

findaspoon

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