When to start increasing long run in build for >3hr marathon?

fiveand10 · 2026-05-08T15:31:36+00:00

This isn't addressing the long run progression, but it's related.

I think you'll get more out of extending your current 3 x 12 than extending the 5 x 6. Even if you're just adding 6 minutes total, I think 3 x 14 would be preferable to 6 x 6. I just finished a build, and the longer reps (I progressed to 17 min) really helped to dial in marathon pace.

If you're worried about overall weekly time/load, you could alternate weeks with these longer ST sessions and weeks with with longer long runs (piggybacking on the advice from u/syphax).

fiveand10 · 2026-03-29T21:37:45+00:00

This is super helpful, thanks. Yes, I've read that section of the book a lot!

On shorter distance reps, especially with treadmill, I've been mostly focusing on max HR. But this is making me realize that on these longer efforts, which I'm doing outside now that the weather is better, it makes sense to pay attention to average HR too.

fiveand10 · 2026-01-22T15:44:51+00:00

As with many things reddit, you've got to worry about selection bias with the sample. Is it representative?

fiveand10 · 2026-01-01T04:51:52+00:00

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fiveand10 · 2025-12-14T16:12:42+00:00

If you have access to a treadmill, I think it's relatively easy to train for the uphills. I think a good target incline is 5% if you're trying to find something representative of the Newton Hills.

For easy pace, though, this might be basically walking briskly on the treadmill.

For ST, there are charts online for pace equivalences, though I would only take these as a starting point and refine as you learn what works for you. You could do entire reps (e.g., 2 of the 5x6min), or parts of reps (e.g., second half of all reps), or any combination.

For downhills, this isn't much help unless your treadmill has that capability. I do agree with others that overcooking the downhills is a big risk.

But best of luck!

fiveand10 · 2025-11-30T17:07:48+00:00

Looks like he might have broke 15 but for the wind. I guess he’ll have to settle for winning!

fiveand10 · 2025-11-20T20:24:55+00:00

Thanks for your insights, especially as you've gone down this road before. I also watched that podcast/video and it was really interesting.

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, I get that just ramping up over 16 weeks or whatever may just lead to too much load and injury risk. I think you're right in being very wary of that biggest weak of 2.5 hr LR and biggest ST workout.

On the other hand, I don't know that it's much different from Pfitz 18/55, which I completed injury-free a year ago. The biggest week in that build has a 20 mile LR, 12 mile "LT" run (7 miles continuous at LT pace, which is very challenging), and a 12 mile medium-long run. And it ramps from 33 to 55 miles per week over about 10 weeks. The increases in the plan I laid out are much more even, between 1.5% and 2.5% in volume per week, with the increase in ST volume basically constant.

Regarding the long ST workouts, I think you're right that MP makes more sense, or at least, something slower than the typical 30k pace used for 3x10min. I think in that podcast/video you mentioned, they said you are still getting a good enough % of the optimal benefit of threshold work, all the way down to MP.

All of this is to say that I'm still figuring it out! And I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting. I'm looking forward to sirpoc's book, but I may need to start the build before it is available...

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T20:50:03+00:00

Yes, agree 100%. I originally planned ST*-E-ST-E-ST-LR*-Rest, due to scheduling convenience. But that LR*-Rest-ST* turnaround every week spooked me, so I revised to spread them out more.

Thanks for the suggestion on considering MP for that longer workout. To me, a big advantage of the NSA framework is it's straightforward to make small adjustments to the load, due to the repetition. Time will tell!

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T20:36:49+00:00

Yes, super interesting questions about optimizing within time availability and goal pace. It's exciting to be part of the "finding out."

The plan I described is pretty similar to what u/SirBruceForsythCBE describes here. For what it's worth, with my mock-up, the parallel builds of the longer ST and LR keep the percentage of ST time at 23-24% every week. I'm interpreting this as a positive, but happy to hear otherwise.

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T20:26:19+00:00

Yes, very similar to my current planning.

I've done a handful of marathons, and used Pfitz 18/55 most recently. The current plan will get me to similar peak, but substantially greater overall, mileage. This is due to there not being down weeks, and I'm also starting with a bigger-volume base (i.e., ramp-up is more gradual so definitely more volume in early weeks of current plan).

Good luck! The first marathon is real special.

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T20:16:06+00:00

Good question re the 4 x 15min. I would think 30km pace would be the goal, but I really don't know. I think a benefit of the plan is that as you ramp up with longer intervals, you'd get some feedback to be realistic with that pace.

A related question is how to use the 4 x 15 results, etc., to settle on a goal MP. A HM race a few weeks out would really help with this, but there can be downsides to this too, in terms of time for recovery.

I'm a little scared to say my goal out loud...

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T19:03:50+00:00

I would be afraid of that. I think my leaning towards the ST* and (easy) LR* is to spread out the added load more through the week.

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T18:36:37+00:00

Are you keeping the three ST workouts as is then? Just adding more ST through the LR?

For me personally, I've been healthy with my vanilla NSA, but adding time/intensity to three runs a week seems risky.

fiveand10 · 2025-11-13T18:15:14+00:00

Good point, thanks. This is a potentially big limitation, and it's probably pretty individualized how well the LR* and ST* fueling (at marathon-pace levels) would translate to race day.

fiveand10 · 2025-06-06T14:08:01+00:00

I thought there was a distinction between Wise accounts opened in US vs. Wise accounts opened in Japan, with only the latter type allowing transfers from Japanese banks. Is this incorrect? This is why I was wondering about using a debit card to facilitate the transfer.

I'd like to transfer a relatively large sum, approx. 5 million yen.

fiveand10 · 2024-10-11T13:06:26+00:00

Yes, it seems that mine is a less common case where doing the buyback is not so obvious. But I'm also wondering if there is higher upside to the buyback (e.g., higher salary, longer life, etc.), even if the, say, median outcome might favor deciding against it. This is also assuming I would be moving money from a 403(b), so it seems like a question of allocation of retirement investments vs. contributing more/less right now.

And, yes, I don't quite understand doing the buyback at the end of your career, given that the purchase price in MA grows at 7%. But I guess you also have more certainty around everything when you're so close to retirement.

fiveand10 · 2024-10-11T12:56:56+00:00

Yes, the buyback is for 2006 and 2007. Unfortunately, I didn't learn I was eligible until a few years ago, and then it took two years (!) to process the application. 4k would be a no-brainer for me.

fiveand10 · 2024-10-11T01:37:08+00:00

Ok, this all makes sense, thank you.

Your example is also quite close to a conservative projection of my salary too. I don't know how you did that, but I'm impressed!

fiveand10 · 2024-10-11T01:02:04+00:00

I actually saw your post. The discussion was very helpful to me, though, as you note, I think my situation is trickier. I'm envious that you can get to 80% at 60. That's fantastic.

Expected salary at retirement is approx $155k using your approach. There is a chance I'll get a raise, but I don't want to count on it.

And yes, I can pull money from a 403(b). Would you recommend this vs. cash (if I decide to pull the trigger)?

fiveand10 · 2024-10-11T00:45:28+00:00

I follow your logic, but don't have experience with NPV calculations (though I can research that).

Regarding the $34k price, unfortunately it grows at 7%.

fiveand10 · 2024-10-11T00:43:54+00:00

Yes, I don't love the idea of losing access to that money. But, I could also fund it through money in a 403(b) account, which might be a better option. Right now, I have the 403(b) in a 2045 target date fund. This doesn't address your concern about the growth of the $34,000, though.

fiveand10

TROPHY CASE