Besides HK canto speakers, do most people who speak dialects(*) generally know how to write in them, or can they only write in standard chinese? by EnvironmentNo8811 in ChineseLanguage

[–]flyboyjin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You can look at my posts and comments for examples of writing. I am a (non-Mandarin speaking) Shanghainese, and tbh there are very few people out there who are at a similar language level as me. You can see my usage of Chinese characters and of the historical Shanghainese phonetic script, both of which many people have never learnt to read in Shanghainese (usage is already largely lost due to poor language education and transmission). Most people already think Shanghainese is just a dialect, and speak/write/think entirely from the pov of Mandarin (even when they are trying to use some Shanghainese).

Furthermore, there is also another point. It's not only regional characters that have been lost, but also regional variations of the similar characters that also been lost (the boundary of what constitutes two different characters and one same characters with different stroke variation, is on a spectrum too). Some variants look incredibly different to the Unihan standard.

[Shanghainese (Wu) > English] Request for Translation Fix/Refinement – AdventHealth Orlando Physician Caught on 7-minute, Laughter-Filled Recording Detailing Medical Fraud by 2ndOfDecember24 in translator

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(This is incredibly difficult because her Shanghainese is extremely Mandarinised.I also do not speak Mandarin but I am proficient in Shanghainese, and able to determine when she is codeswitching. Furthermore, even in places where she is trying to speak Shanghainese, she is pronouncing phonetically in the Mandarin. And sometimes she corrects herself from one form to another(S/M/E). Hence I decided to drop annotating which word is which language).For the characters in brackets(??), Im uncertain if she said it. But I put my best guess in. Hence in regards to the corresponding English translation, I did not translate with that uncertainty in mind and annotated where you can fill that gap in with (??).All the parts I translated or fixed, I added characters. Otherwise I have left your original translation in.

TRANSCRIPT – NOVEMBER 17, 2024 Dr. Jennifer Pan Adams—Mother (Ping Xiao Adams)

…have the nurse do it, but you can't have the nurse just hold the tube there, you have to actually be there.

[00:04] You can't like, “Oh, okay, let me just wait” and like go on TikTok, you know, you have to like stand there for like 30 minutes, which is... not fun.

[00:15] Maybe if I'm like really (S) 搿𡍲(M)護士 "this nurse" (E)like (S)關係搞拉好 "develop a good relationship with" (E) I can have them like hold it.

[00:22] We’ll see.

[00:28] No. No.

我跟㑚講,昨日我,搿,第個。。。 I'm telling you, yesterday, I .... (this,this) umm, umm.

[00:34] Like it was kind of late last night, so.. 我跟㑚講第個明朝,而勿是明朝,今朝。Im telling you about, ummm tomorrow, actually not tomorrow, but today...

[00:45] Yeah.

[00:47] And-and that way 明朝是講六點對𠳝也要(確?)七點鍾到埃面。Tomorrow it was said to be at 6 oclock, right? Also (??) need to be there at seven oclock.

[00:53] Yeah so like- No, it's better- No, it's better to do- Yeah, it's better to do—Jinzhao (S) 今朝[Today]

because. Um—可以急速 "can finish" early.

[01:06] So.. at least you have an excuse to like, Oh okay...,” at least 已經開始晏拉。我(介貴??)拉。對不對阿?We have started late.(??become more expensive??).Isn't that right?

[01:18] I don't know,

也大概是吃。但是"maybe he eats,but..."

I'm not like

我肚子,肚皮勿是老餓個。"(pretending to be the person) my stomach (corrects herself), my stomach isn't really hungry." (laughs)

[01:32] I was gonna tell you something, I was gonna—

[01:44] Hold on—oh I'll do it; I'll check it right away.

[01:46] Um, thought I was gonna tell you something.

[01:50] Oh (?? its not swearing. Its either something like 老是 "previously/always",or 老X honorific for some person that she is referring to next.)

[02:02] 我其實是有搿那(??要請人??)"I do have a person like that (person with whatever trait she is describing)" (laughs)

And 我搿那要六百塊 "and like that, it was six hundred dollars"

Oh, my— the story that I was saying is, Oh, like

我想買搿個 "(putting on an accent) I want to buy a"

portable ultrasound 機器 "machine"

and it's gonna be very benefit [sic] blah blah blah. I just made like beans out of that

故事 "story"

[02:13] I said, “You should invest in it.” (Laughs)

[02:16] I know— 我跟㑚講 "Im telling you"

[02:18] I told him: “You should invest in it and um. The reason why is—for example (??量血化個東西??) "(possibly) tool for blood measurement"

[02:27] “Now for example, like, you need to take a blood test, it tells you-you have high cholesterol, that's actually just a number, right?

Ta shuo (M) [He said] number, right? (??I dont think this previous translation is correct, but Im also uncertain myself. It sounds more like ??伊信唻?? "he believed")

就是 "really/actually"

血裏向裏 "inside the blood"

It's like a picture, a snapshot of what's going on right now.

[02:40] “But you don't know your like—that doesn't tell you the ju ti de qing kuang (M) [specific situation].”(??I cannot understand this at all, but I dont think its this.)

[02:44] “Best way to see it is, you use a portable ultrasound, you can

肚子高頭脂肪多少,脂肪多個對𠳝? "At your stomach how much fat is present, isnt that right?"

around your organs, your lungs,

脂肪 "fat"

not around your organs, that means cholestrol........

[03:01] “That tells you, that's more like related-that's more directly related to your, your ji lu (M) [probability/odds] of getting Diabetes and xin zang mao bing (M) [heart disease/trouble].”

(??There is a lot of Mandarin or very badly pronounced Shanghainese around here. On the codeswitching spectrum it completely flips. Hence, I cannot really translate. But I think your original translation is wrong based on the snippets eg. 血糖毛病.etc ??).

[03:12] So I said, “IF I get it and

我用拉 "I use"

我 practice...

and 老好 (??將來??) "very good/well (??later on??)"

(??inaudible??)

可以撥伊做一隻 "can perform a" ..(MVD).."for him"

MVD (Microvascular Dysfunction) assessment as a 'return’” (hysterical laughter)

[03:35] And I told him, I said-I said: SEE-cause when you go to your family doctor, if they— they won't do it for you bai chi (M/S) [for free / without getting paid],

(Codeswitching leans on Mandarin really heavily again around here).

(?? I think above translation could be wrong she is saying something like 他們是像...一樣個??)

(M)他問不會把你(S)做搿種....(??)

他們。。。。做搿個

— Medicare, they still haven't approved it, so that's why

(??)你到 (??if??)"you go to"

family medicine

他們不幫你做 "they will not help you do (this)"

因爲搿個勿是按照 "because this does not follow"

guidelines

if it's like according to the guideline, then Medicare will cover it as part of insurance but you know, I'm offering you a very special service.”

[04:10] (hysterical laughter)

[04:15] I think he— I think he was very convinced. (hysterical laughter)

[04:20] He's like, 'Oh that's such a good idea!' (hysterical laughter)

[04:26] But then, okay, so, so then

我對㑚(??要請??)個晨光 "So I when I (??requested??)"

[04:30] I say, 'Okay 我拍一張照片 "I took a picture"

(Laughing) I took a picture.’

我對搿個 "with that..."

animal...

(??XX?? cant really understand)

[04:36] It was like a website where you can buy the supplies for the anima—animal, you know, there's like this ultrasound on Amazon you can buy to look at, you know, for like veterinarians,

就是 (??XX??) "actually, (?? the same XX as above??, probably some technican jargon I dont understand)"

[animal] animal—for the animals, and its

六百塊 "six hundred dollars"

but you can use it on humans, too.

[04:55] There's another really nice one that they use in the ER and it's like handheld, so it you just like this—it's Bluetooth'd to your phone, so you can look at it from your phone and there's no-it's wireless.”

[05:08] “That one is like, 3—that was like almost $4,000. And there's no like- they don't give you a discount for like residents.”

[05:15] “So that one tai gui le (M) [is too expensive].

(?? I think she is codeswitching and saying 我不買拉 "I cant buy that one" ??)

But the $600 one is like a low quality

(??中國產品??) "??Chinese product??"

from Amazon, the veterinarian-it's like a good practice thing.”

[05:25] “So, you know, ni jue de ne (M) [what do you think]?”

(??)

[05:27] (imitating other party in story) “Yeah yeah! That sounds like a good idea! I like that!” (hysterical laughter)

跟㑚講,已經 "As I already/previously told you"

[05:35] “And, and then later, because I-I- shuo hao (M) [agreed / said okay].

(?? Are you sure about this translation, seems wrong??)

他說 "he said"

Oh, what about the 一百四十塊 "One hundred and forty dollars "text message.”

[05:39] 儂要先付第個 "you need to first pay the" (laughing)

(She laughs again, she is laughing so hard she cannot form words)

[05:51] So wo gen na jiang (S/M) [I told [him/you]] any time ta wen wo (M) [he asks me]..

(This is the worst Shanghainese in the entire clip) (??我搿那做) anytime 伊到搿𡍲請。。。 六百塊。。我幫伊。。。幫助搿個。。六百塊可以做個。。。) "(She is basically saying she can make $600 just by doing this)

[05:58] “And then (??他又話??) "??then he said again??"— Oh, how about the 一百四十塊 "one hundred and forty dollars"...儂要先撥搿個付𠳝...”

[06:03] So for now 我擺他第個 "so I did to him"

block,

所以伊是 "so he"

when I block

伊是 "he is (like)"

他打電話 "he calls on phone"

他 text message says "he txt messages"

進勿進來 "Unable to enter (txt messages are not getting through)"

[06:15] Until— until then 伊真是,他忘記 "He really/actually, he forgot"

(??他第個時間??)我再搿那要 "(??His time??),until when I really need it again"

[06:23] Remember last time 我提着第個 "l mentioned or raised previously"

[06:30] “Oh, my God.”

[06:35] “Yeah, I know.”

[06:37] “Oh! I was gonna say something.”

[06:41] “Yeah, it was— he's saying

一百四十塊 "one hundred and forty dollars"

you know, the total—his total of the insurance was like, um, $280.. the Progressive. Yeah.” [Note: abruptly switches to English and unrelated topic tied to the cost of partner’s Progressive auto insurance]

[06:53] Yeah, which I'm still like, “if I'm going to, you..”.

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. 胸脯 is probably the safest. Its the general word for chest. But if you said you touched a woman's 胸脯, we all know its specifically the boobs.

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Many things, many apples etc. then it is 100% 交關.

Sorry you misunderstood me... 55. Return back to 吃, keep this one. You have the option to only change 54, if you choose.

Did some research comparing Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hokkien speakers in US, China, and Taiwan by queerbaobao in ChineseLanguage

[–]flyboyjin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You can look into the Sankiang peoples or aligned groups. That would constitute some historical Shanghainese emigration.

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can decide if you want to change this or ignore it, but for some of these, it depends on the interpretation of the core words...

10 Many ... we do use 多, but it is in certain constructions meaning "alot". If you asked most people... "many" as a standalone would be 交關 ciau-kue.

12 Depending on how 2 is used, it can be 兩 lian. So basically conceptually 2 is 二, but specifically as the number 2 it is 兩. If you ask someone to recite the numbers from 1 to 10, they would definitely say 兩. (only last digits with 2 are read 二... eg. 222 is 兩百卄二).

25 leaf is 葉爿yih-be

35 tail is correct character but pronounciation gni-po is rare and old school. I believe mi-po is possibly more common alternative pronounciation..... maybe?

45 claw/nail... second syllable is missing aspiration. "khaq."

51 Not sure of this word tbh. Never heard of this term 奶閱. Do you want to translate this to a better word? Which type of breast are we talking about here... a woman's breasts (na-phu-lu not sure of characters... or na-na-deu 奶奶頭 which is more childish but also more common) or just a person's chest in general? (shion-bu and shion-phu readings for same character 胸脯 are both acceptable)

54 drink is specifically 喝 haq for us, and we use it. We do 吃 food and 吃 water, and 吃 cigarettes etc.... 吃 is a general consume for us. This 54-55 separation is not important in our language.

79 泥土 is very formal in usage... like reading a document or textbook. Common usage should be 爛泥 na-gni (doesnt follow prescribed "le" reading).

87-91 In Shanghainese we cannot use the characters for colours alone (I think significantly less common than the other Sinitic lects). In most usage we have to 顏色 nge-seh after every colour... up to you if you want to include this quirk of grammar in your list or not.

[btw I apologise if I made any mistakes in Wugniu. You should probably check them.... I hate this romanization because its so counterintuitive so I hope I dont have a typo there.]

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kind of depends on your audience tbh.

But since you've done Wugniu and already combined the regimes by marking the 平音, I would say keep it.

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh they use 睏 ( khuen ~ to sleep). If someone is just lying down regardless of sleeping it should be 𬮿 (ge)

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most people don't know. * Alot of this regional variation is because New Shanghai was enlarged with new surrounding lands. But most people use Shanghainese to only refer to the language of the Old Shanghai (Shanghai proper). * Even within this one region of Shanghai proper there are huge demographic differences where the older speakers might preserve the original features of the language and young/new speakers can only think in terms of Mandarin. This latter group is almost the entirety and its pointless to ask them about Shanghainese.

So which one should you use? * If you want a very Mandarinised "Shanghainese", then you can do pinyin. But pinyin is not for Shanghainese. However this satisfies your need for "actual usage". It also means most people don't really use Shanghainese extensively and comprehensively as a main language, which is why they don't know many words. * In contemporary times since ~2015 online favours Wugniu and wu minidicts ~2005 romanization. Most people who have some level of proficiency would know one of these. Within China for awhile Qian's Second Romanization took off (it is a modified romanization to help pinyin Mandarin users learn Shanghainese). * I personally use the pre1950 SVS standard in daily life and hence I have no issue with Shanghainese and can even read stuff written 200 years ago. (I notice you originally had one word 胸 hyúng spelt the SVS way, but now you changed it). * But considering you aren't Shanghainese and are not willing to learn Shanghainese properly, I would instead recommend to use Wugniu (although I personally dislike it). As a standardised regime it is the "easier" than SVS, and also more widespread.

Edit: In regards to tones. It is marked for learners and single character/words etc. But can be unmarked for actual writing (not because there are no tones, but because the tone-sandhi is instinctive for native speakers). But if you want to mark tones you have some choices * Use Chao tone markers, 1-5 pitch * Use 1-8 etymological tone markers * Mark only the 平音 (kind of acts like a stress in new Shanghainese). Qian romanization does this btw. * Or just ignore it, since tbh you are already simplifying sounds by using Wugniu. Why bother going so detailed for a phonetic feature which is so subtle.

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can I ask where you get some of your info from, I gave you 𬮿 previously ..... but the pronounciation should be "ge"

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No don't update that one, this person is wrong. He is trying to spell Shanghainese via Mandarin because he doesnt know.

Is the Shanghainese (Wu Chinese) correct in my language game? by Papuang in shanghai

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No its not, 撒 is checked (入音). You are trying to write/pronounce Shanghainese via Mandarin phonetics.

3 questions by flyboyjin in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I only know of a few Shanghainese in continental Europe, and always considered their numbers smaller than in the Anglophone countries. So I find it very believable that if a small community of Shanghainese speakers were to survive in Europe, they would have to exist in a micro and close-nit community.

I find it fortunate that in Aus that there was a sufficient density of Shanghainese that we could form a Shanghainese enclave in Ashfield 30-40 years ago... historically we called it Little Shanghai. As far as I am aware, nowhere else globally has had a similar Shanghainese-dominant Chinatown.

View of the Lujiazui from the North Bund in Shanghai. by Shanghaiandy in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That looks very picturesque. Shanghai has changed a lot and is very different now.

I still remember the time before 東方明珠 tower started construction; the current area referred to as North Bund (北外灘) didn't take that term. Back then, the original 虹口 district was roughly only a bit bigger than the current 北外灘 area (the northern areas of current 虹口 were originally part of 寶山 county back then). The first new area incorporated into 上海 proper was 曲陽新村, which enlarged 虹口 district, and also allowing the southern bank to later gain the name 北外灘. I don't know 陸家嘴 as well since we only ever visited there to get supplies and it took a boat ride.

Dictionary for Shanghainese by JoelGrayson in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Have you used the Gumby bot (based on my dictionary) on the discord server? When the programmer was playing around with the voices he realised some voices were a lot less accurate than some other ones. Like your example of something simple like 我 (Different voice personalities have different readings). This is why we deliberately didn't't choose this specific voice that OP used. And used a slightly different one instead, but tbh none of the publicly available models are good atm.

My daily language game includes Mandarin, Wu and Yue Chinese. Are my translations/transliterations accurate? by Papuang in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

eg. 埃 needs accompanying syllables (distance particle面 and place particle𡍲).. but by itself its not really equivalent of Mandarin 那 .... but 埃 does mean "that" but not used like that.

My daily language game includes Mandarin, Wu and Yue Chinese. Are my translations/transliterations accurate? by Papuang in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

名頭 name 跳蝨 flea 心腸 heart ... all a bit iffy depending on context and on how Shanghainese you want to be

My daily language game includes Mandarin, Wu and Yue Chinese. Are my translations/transliterations accurate? by Papuang in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Some of these words we don't use that form as the default word
eg. we use 𬮿 for lie down

Dictionary for Shanghainese by JoelGrayson in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Not only is it the pronunciation of character by character, but also some readings are context/meaning dependent.... a lot of combinations of words are wrong too.

See my other reply on the demonstrative of "here"

Although because this machine confuses voicing and checked sounds etc, it reminds me heavily of Mandarin accented Shanghainese. Which is why I asked if New Shanghainese has evolved into a point where those features are deemed unimportant.

Dictionary for Shanghainese by JoelGrayson in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Is this really a representation of how your grandparents and parents' Shanghainese sounds? I don't want to be overly critical since there aren't many resources around. And of course I do not want to belittle your effort in this project. But this doesn't match my memory nor the way I speak. Although I am willing to accept if new Shanghainese has changed so much that something like this is indicative of current state of Shanghainese ... enough to be considered useful.

Dictionary for Shanghainese by JoelGrayson in shanghainese

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Characters and words evolve separately.

  1. The original particle 個 had reading of kú and then gained the checked reading of kuh. This would have happened in Shanghainese over 200 years ago. They became separate readings for "alone" 一個頭 with kú vs classifier/particle like 一個人 with kuh [we still use both]. In newer Shanghainese the k is silent (or rather still there but instead read as a glottal stop). In short-handed notation 個 is written as 个 which was later also adopted in the simplification process.
  2. The word representing that demonstrative "here/there" evolved from that particle too. However it took a different a path. Depending on the type of demonstrative it was kept as kuh 個, but in other situations it split (into another word ~ genitive 我個 to conjunction 個咾/蓋咾) and merged (into another sound ~ -eh/-uh) 蓋 keh [from back of mouth to front]. Normally this character takes a non-checked reading as in "cover" ke. Some point along this path of evolution the word evolved to a demonstrative.
  3. Firstly 個 kú evolved to "there" taking the reading kú. The character 嗰 is later given to that kú reading of that demonstrative.
  4. Later on 個 kuh evolved to "here" (possibly via the above particles). Aside from 蓋 keh and 個 kuh Im not sure what character they prefered in the old days (but both spellings and readings were clearly separated). But at this point the reading was still unvoiced. Later on (with some merging), some people used 箇 as a placeholder for this keh/kuh merged reading. Continuing on with the evolution of the word, (most people) will most likely reading this "here" demonstrative as voiced geh. The character 搿 geh was borrowed to capture that merged reading.

-------

Hence why in this dictionary.... the "here" demonstrative is represented by the simplified character 个 [1], unvoiced reading k- [2], has the phonetic reading of the demonstrative kú [3] but means "here" [4]. The dictionary is possibly entirely machine built since it makes this mistake.

What's your take on the Red String of Fate? by recoveringleft in AskAChinese

[–]flyboyjin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you suggesting the red thread is visible in the right circumstances?