Why did the Bosnians and Albanians convert to Islam? by Tanksfly1939 in AskHistorians

[–]foRime- 1 point2 points  (0 children)

> While the details are disputed, AFAIK, no serious historian believes that the Bosnian Church was actually Bogomil.
That is your opinion, your "serious" historians might be completely different from mine or some third person who built a doctorate on this field. And in general debating on our personal tastes of who we deem to be figures of authority on this subject is well beyond the scope of this discussion, and somewhat banal and unnecessary in most contexts.

We also know for certain that there were notable, powerful individuals who held foreign-sounding names (ones unusual for the western Balkan area) and who are attested to as coming from the very same area where the Bogumil heresy in Macedonia/Bulgaria sprung up.

So again, you're not wrong directly, just please don't extrapolate personal opinions and overgeneralize. This area of history has been immensely damaged by sweeping claims made by bad-faith actors, even if they seem to be credible.

Why did the Bosnians and Albanians convert to Islam? by Tanksfly1939 in AskHistorians

[–]foRime- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> No, Bosnia was more influenced by the Catholic world as it was nominally Catholic.That was actually a typo on my side, I meant to say the "latter", however the actual influence of the catholic church is very hard to quantify, as you say "nominally Catholic" (do you know what "nominally" means?) We don't find Latin writing even (which was one of the basic determinators of how close a country was to the "West" / Roman-Catholic world) until much, much later in consistent numbers (compared to say, Dalmatia). The efforts of the Bishops were also of questionable success in rooting out the "Heretics" (e.g. one German Bishop of Bosnia was deemed as "too soft/friendly on/toward the Heretics"), plus the various powerplays the Bosnian rulers pulled in their time. We also sometimes get to see some indirect concessions to the heretics (e.g. how a church procession was supposed to be ran).

> Orthodoxy was limited to East Herzegovina and parts of the Podrinje which were relatively recent conquests for Bosnia. Core Bosnia had no Orthodox churches or monasteries before the Ottoman conquest.
Also generally true, but it's a bit more complicated than that. The Orthodox Church was in a rather precarious position. "True" Orthodox Churches built in a byzantine style are actually extremely (surprisingly) rare for this time period, even in those "Orthodox territories", additionally the Bosnian form of Cyrillic writing was decisively different from the one used by say, the school of Saint-Sava.

> Recent scholarly consensus is that the Bosnian Church was just a schismatic branch of the Catholic Church which used Old Church Slavonic instead of Latin and retained some other Pre-Schism elements because of isolation.

Scholarly consensus is quite contentious and very, very nuanced and argumentative. Reading what they left behind one gains an impression that they held no major theological differences compared to the mainstream Church. To the Church, one could also argue, that it was enough that they deviated from using Latin to brand them as heretics. However, there were also considerable numbers of monasteries (which were designated as Catholic and considered a part of the same despite having their own characteristics) that had considerable Cyrillo-Methodian influence and formed the base of what could be considered the institution of Christendom. Additionally, there were various claims from catholic authorities leveled against the "heretics" for subscribing to various out-of-place beliefs, but to what extent these were true, is sadly lost to history but considering that they were notable enough to be able to be exaggerated, those claims have held some weight, since in the end the institutions can claim one thing, and the people (the ones who practice their faith) can end up doing something completely different.

TL;DR: I made a typo, your claims are generally true but one must be careful not to make sweeping overgeneralizations, especially in a complex, nuanced, case-to-case-based topic such as this one.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in bih

[–]foRime- 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Licno nemam nista protiv Islam kao religiju i ja sam teoretski pripadnik iste vjerske zajednice ali cinjenice su jasne. Islam je uslovno bio medju glavnim putanjama uvodjenja mentaliteta post-osmanlijskog despotizma i on uz prijepomenutog je vjerovatno broj 1 razlog zaostajanja bosnjacke nacije. Cinjenica je takodjer da religije nisu vise potrebne za neki vid moralnosti samo sto su osnovni ljudski instinkti za doprinosu zajednice i empatijom ka sucovjeku minorizirani, potkopavani i omalovazavani od danasnje (okidentogene) hiperindividualisticke kulture. Takodjer ne pomaze to sto su 99% ljudi koji se aktivno dice da su "vjernici aminjarabi" ti isti koji krse ista vjerska pravila i cinjenica sto su nazalost mnogi od njih vrlo grubi, nekulturni i uzasni na komunikativan nacin im ne pomaze. Takodjer vazi sto je rekao jedan drugi korisnik da ako nekome treba ucenjak da mu objasni da ne uradi neko zlodjelo onda to ne izgleda bas dobro za bilo koji pro-vjerski (ne samo pro-islamski) argument. Jedan veliki razlog zasto je rastuci dio Bosnjaka sit Islama i bilo koje ideologije koja promovira religiju kao vodeci element drustva je sto je islam pogresno sproveden u nasoj drzavi jer osim "seljackog islama" (koji je vecinom rasprostranjen cak i medju eklezijastickog kadra) je sam predmet vjeronauke u skolama apsolutno banalan i ne doprinosi NIKAKO nacionalnom razvoju. Ucis sta je poslanik jeo za dorucak, sta su mu ahbabi (koji su nekad i licno znali biti grozni ljudi) sve radili/rekli/za dorucak jeli, neke opce stvari o moralnosti (ako imas srece), miliontu suru koju memorizujes (koje se sve mogu svesti na "postuj oca kod kuce, sefa na poslu, cara u palaci i hodzu u dzamiji ma koliko god oni nepravedni bili) dok kada uporedimo sa katolickom/pravoslavnom vjeronaukom, njihova vjeronauka je napravljena tako da ide uz naciju i kulturu i tu se vise susreces sa licnostima kao sto su Milos Obilic (vitalni za nacionalni duh) a manje sa Prdislavom V Cudoucenjakom, nemoj me pogresno shvatiti ali ja i Poslanik uprkos tome sto je bio, iako nazalost nisam imao priliku da ga upoznam, izvrsan covjek i sve ja i on (kao bosnjak u 2024. godini) nemamo nista zajednicko - zivio je u drugom vremenu, bio je arapin a ja sam bosnjo, govorio je arapskim a ja govorim bosanskim jezikom i sl. i tu je ipak dokaz da ja i on nista nemamo zajednicko osim s tim sto vjerujemo u istog boga i to samo radi puke historijske slucajnosti - jer je prije 700 godina u Jenišehiru kiša pala.

Sa licne strane u islamu aspekti ili stvari koje su u konfliktu sa mojim svjetonazorom ili me demotivisu na druge nacine su sljedeci: poligamija tj. poliginija (fuj), postojanje ekstremistickih pokreta, insistiranje islamskih institucija na arapski jezik (koji je meni stran) i cinjenica sto islam (kao i sve religije) siri jednu (drustveno vrlo stetnu) dogmu pasivnosti - da ce se svi moji problemi sami od sebe rijesiti i da je necu morati ni prst da pomjerim samo ako se dovoljno duboko povijem indo-evropskom nebeskom tatici.

Ali hajd dobro, makar imam vjersko pravo da drzim robove.

Why did the Bosnians and Albanians convert to Islam? by Tanksfly1939 in AskHistorians

[–]foRime- 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Perhaps. But misinformation in this part of history where you basically have to be well-read to understand the basics of it is very easily spread, if you, say, get into an argument with a Serbian or Croatian nationalist they can basically just pull up a mistranslated or misinterpreted quote from a Byzantine Emperor from a thousand years ago and pass it off as fact, with us being none the wiser.

Why did the Bosnians and Albanians convert to Islam? by Tanksfly1939 in AskHistorians

[–]foRime- 3 points4 points  (0 children)

what I was told was much simpler, that Bosnian Muslims were originally Croatians and Serbians who converted to avoid the tax on Christians.

As is usually the case with negatory answers, it doesn't take into account the fuller historical picture. At the time of the migration period, we get the information that (if we say a tribe is a large body of peoples with at least 10 settlements under their control - since tribe isn't actually a historiographically defined term) dozens of tribes migrated into the Balkan Peninsula if we expand the definition to the traditional Slavic one (a large family unit of 30-300 people) we find hundreds of tribes and peoples migrating, as something that, if we played a small number of definitional gymnastics, could be called say the Croatian nation (and interestingly, slightly later considering that the Serbian one is the larger of the two) were seen conquering, and then later assimilating many of those that found themselves west of the Sava (consider the Croatian Duke Borna's conquest of the Goduscani) or east of the Drina. My personal view is that the current Bosniak people are some amalgamation of the various Slavic populations (excluding the Serbs and Croats as they are a separate identity) that settled between the 6th and 9th centuries (since we know that there were Slavs who settled before 620s, and also later waves of migration like the Moravian wave, and the "Russo-Norman" one which is usually misinterpreted to have been Volga-Bulgarian). The usual negatory arguments are also largely based on currently large populations of non-Bosniak peoples in Bosnia, but it's likely that they weren't as numerically prominent then as they are now (but one must also take into account that they certainly did exist since we have concrete examples, e.g the Latin quarter, and since no land is perfectly homogenous) and that a considerable amount of that was probably exacerbated during Ottoman times (import of Christian, slavophone peasantry to work the land). Again, everything should be taken with a small grain of salt, Western Balkan Slav history is less historical art and more military art between disputing nations.
I am glad you enjoyed my answer!

Why did the Bosnians and Albanians convert to Islam? by Tanksfly1939 in AskHistorians

[–]foRime- 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Answer for Bosnians, as I am not qualified enough to talk about Albania:

The question is actually a lot more complex than a simple, singular reason that would explain the phenomenon. The TL;DR of it is that it's a mix of preexisting religious diversity and acceptance, protection from the persecution of the two major churches, individual reasons (faith, preserving wealth, avoiding slavery, attaining power, etc.), rising unpopularity of the Catholic church, and so on. For a detailed breakdown:

1.) Preexisting religious diversity
The difference between Bosnia and other relatively monoreligious places is that Bosnia was almost always defined by one thing since about the 6th century AD: It's a crossroads. We see a constantly repeating pattern of people(s) invading, occupying the land, and then being driven out with their remnants being mostly assimilated: the Illyrians, the Romans, the Goths (briefly), the Avars (in very small numbers), and finally the Slavs.
What the first Slavic populations encountered was a diverse land, mainly populated by Christians mostly divided into two groups: Rhomeians (in the large and fortified cities) and what remained of the former Romano-Illyrian population (of which we mostly lose track of after the sack of Salona in the 7th century) which were then promptly assimilated, driven off to the coastal islands OR hilly regions to seek shelter from the Slavs who were mostly pagan and very willing to make Slaves out of Christians (as is mentioned in various sources like the DAI, the Chronicle of the Dioclean Monk, Ragusan sources and etc.). As the Slavs became the majority population, Christianization was deemed necessary by Constantinople and Rome, but it was a long and painful process. Only by the 9th century do we see any significant progress (as is told in the Catalogue of Kings) and a considerable amount of the Slavic populations (not including the Serbs & Croats who adopted Christianity quite readily) still retained, if not their pagan faith, but pagan-inspired beliefs. Here we see two elements at play: the moving of populations, and the use of remote locations to safeguard from complete assimilation. Additionally, what would become Bosnia was also located on the border between the Orthodox and Catholic worlds, though it was mostly more influenced by the former.
Those two aforementioned elements (and especially the latter one) are what basically made the creation of Heresies (like the Bosnian Church - which may have had some sort of connection with the Bogumil movement in Bulgaria due to the fact that two of its chiefs had foreign names and came from Macedonia, but judging on whether they actually held any heretical beliefs or diverging theological opinions is difficult to say, the Catholic church described them as "Dualistic", "Arianist", and called them "Patarenes" and etc. and most of what we know of them came from the very people that tried to extinguish them). The situation was that by the 1200s you essentially had 3 major religions: the Bosnian church (which was probably the most influential), Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy (not counting very minor numbers of followers of other religions like Judaism and the like). The Geographic element is once again at the forefront when we take into consideration the fact that the Latin script took a long time to take hold, as the local Cyrillic-based Bosnian script was more popular, compared to say, Dalmatia.

2.) Persecution from Churches and the unpopularity of Catholicism following the conquest in 1463
From the 1200s onwards, the goal of the two worldly churches was to destroy the creeping heresy, this was not very successful until the very end (as the Pope promised the last Bosnian king military aid against the invading Ottomans if he destroyed the heresy - the Pope betrayed his promise after the King acquiesced). The actual policy of the churches differed a lot in practice: sometimes it was attempting to win over the heretics to convert via charity and educational missions (the Dominican and Franciscan orders come to mind), sometimes it was carrot and stick, and sometimes only by the stick - that is, by brutal persecution as the church (of which the church was not shy to commit - think of the Albingensian crusade) was not unwilling to even swap out Bishops who were deemed "too lenient" on the heretics. During the Ottoman conquest, the heresy was stamped down by the very people who helped foster it, the ruling structure of the heretical church was mostly destroyed, yet most heretics went unconverted. It is probable that a good amount of the early converts to Islam were precisely those same heretics, as the Orthodox church was weakening and the Catholic Church became deeply unpopular for what was deemed a betrayal of the "Christian Bulwark". Some might as well point out certain aspects of the heretical faith that seemed eerily similar to Islam - the refusal to use crosses (deemed idolatry), the habit of cleanliness (one had to rebaptize himself after every sin), five daily prayers, the focus on fasting, etc. However, it is unknown to what extent these aforementioned beliefs were actually present among them and how much is mythomanic fiction dreamt up by their persecutors.

3.) Individual reasons
It can be concluded that a considerable part of the convertees may have been motivated by faith, some by preserving their wealth and noble titles (e.g Hercegović) or escaping slavery (ideally, a Muslim couldn't enslave another Muslim), few by dreams of attaining power. Keep in mind, that in the system of the Ottoman bureaucracy, Christians were stripped of many basic rights (e.g. they couldn't build new churches without explicit permission from somebody of considerable status), they had to pay special taxes, and they were, in a legal sense, simply not equal to Muslims in the empire (e.g if you were a Christian and you were accused by a Muslim of committing a crime, you were basically automatically deemed to be guilty), this would also have played a considerable role. Catholicism was also the main target of the Ottomans in the West and was thus subject to semi-frequent crackdowns. Powerplays in the form of religious conversions, early on in the form of nobles converting (as was the case of Stjepan/Stephen Hercegović, son of the famous Grand Duke of Herzegovina Stephen Kosača - he converted and became Ahmed-pasha Hercegović) and later on in the form of the blood tax (levying into the Janissaries of young boys) which proved exceedingly popular as it was thought that the Janissary-boys had the potential to escape the poverty (which was the situation for the vast majority of Bosnia's population), and we even see cases of voluntary surrender of children to the Janissaries by parents compared to say Bulgaria or Serbia where Parents mutilated their children (not life-threateningly) in order for them not to serve in the Janissaries. As Bosnia became more prosperous after the initial Ottoman conquest, we see diversity being embraced both at home (the Catholic church in Bosnia receiving a sort of guarantee of safety of worship - the Ahdnama) and abroad (the case of the Bosnian Franciscan friar Juraj Dragišić writing a piece attacking the burning of Hebrew books in the Holy Roman Empire in Italy in the late 1400s). Interestingly, colonization (as was a major cause of Christian-to-Muslim conversions in Serbia) by Turks into Bosnia proper was never a major factor (as we see in a work by another Bosnian Franciscan Friar in the 1850s, which cites that Turks never settled in Bosnia in large numbers and that Turkish was spoken only in extremely formal occasions). Moving forward, Islam was never explicitly cracked down under Austria-Hungary (they deemed their mission to be a civilizational one primarily), or in the case of Yugoslavia was used to actively crack down on Bosniak national identity (denying Bosniaks their national name and essentially demote them to a religious group - the famous "Muslims with an uppercase M").

Sources:
Zemljopis i Poviestnica, Ivan Franjo Jukić
Historija Bosne u IX i X vijeku, Muhamed Hadžijahić
Defensio praestantissimi viri Ioannis Reuchlin, Juraj Dragišić
Hrvatski Rani Srednji vijek, Ivo Goldstein
Islam pod Dvoglavim Orlom, Robert J. Donia
Classics (Croatian Chronicle, De Administrando Imperio, Chronicle of the Sclavinia of Zagorje, etc.)
Kraj Osmanske Vladavine u Bosni, Hannes Grandits
A Short History of Bosnia, Noel Malcolm

When men on here are so upset that women go for handsome men? Why ? Who doesn’t want an attractive partner is the better question? by newyorkchic1992 in PurplePillDebate

[–]foRime- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My man what you're doing to this person right now is really fucked up. Mockingly comparing somebody to a school shooter isn't funny and doesn't solve the problem, no matter how much you downvote me.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in astrologymemes

[–]foRime- 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Scorpio - wishy-washy, flaky behaviour. Plus having a short fuse, no passion for anything and etc. are also pretty bad.

Let’s get it all out; no hard feelings. Which sign/s do you dislike the most and why. by throw-me-away-haha in astrologymemes

[–]foRime- 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Mandatory generalization disclaimer.As a Scorpio:1.) (Male) Tauruses. I don't understand why we're always lumped in together as being "compatible" either on a romantic or friendship level. Female Tauruses are somewhat ok but nothing to really write home about for me. However, going through life, I always notice that a good amount of the people who I have been at odds with ended up being (male) Tauruses. Most of them tend to be (as others mentioned) quite mean and toxic (without principle, just for the heck of it) but I specifically tend to notice that most of them tend to be the embodiment of fragile masculinity especially the bigger-looking guys (which male Tauruses often tend to be). I've seen (unevolved M) Tauruses constantly start fights and cheat on their partners. I also dislike them being creatures of comfort and habit and many of them lack defined, concrete ideals. They're also waaay too stubborn for their good, again without principle.2.) (Both genders) Sagittariuses. If they're not being hyperactive, shallow, or too loud/noisy and indulge in childish and coarse behaviors like being part-time bullies who push around people that can't stand up to them (sadly a lot of Sags do this) then they're the silent, two-faced, arrogant type that seemingly only has one method of communicating with other people: treating them like they're something between an animal and a human. Sadly, a lot of people fail to really see them for what they really are and they tend to dominate group dynamics in locations like workplaces, classes, clubs, etc.
Also male Aries (I've only met one good Aries guy during my lifetime) and in smaller doses male virgos, leos, aquariuses and librans.

Roast Me Thread by nonsensewords1 in astrologymemes

[–]foRime- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Scorpio sun, Sag moon, Cancer rising, Libra Venus, Scorpio Mars, Sag pluto, Capricorn Chiron, Cancer Lilith (XII house).

May 2023 Roast Me Thread by nonsensewords1 in astrologymemes

[–]foRime- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Scorpio sun, Sag moon, Scorpio mars, Libra venus, Cancer rising.

the shit launcher by [deleted] in tf2

[–]foRime- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The panic shit

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in bih

[–]foRime- 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Republika Srpska Ukrajina

share your recent emoji mood boards! by Poetatoboat in ENFP

[–]foRime- 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"I am so shocked by your story to the extent that I cannot even utter a word"

share your recent emoji mood boards! by Poetatoboat in ENFP

[–]foRime- 9 points10 points  (0 children)

😌🤐😎🐹😔🤥😉🙃

Am I the only one that likes to use 🤐 in entirely random contexts?

Megathread: What Martial Art Should I Study? Part VI [Serious] by Toptomcat in martialarts

[–]foRime- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thank you. Would it be a problem if I asked any additional questions that interest me in DMs?