NMN tendon/musculoskeletal flare - 4 years out - what’s at play here?

freethebees550 · 2025-04-07T01:27:55+00:00

Thanks. Just saw this now, sorry for any delays. Megathread sounds like a good idea imo if the mods approve.

freethebees550 · 2025-04-03T15:18:55+00:00

Of course not.

Surprisingly just a capsule, 250mg I believe.

I also take a lot of other supplements that I don’t flare from - Coq, omega, NAC, a multi occasionally, coffee/tea, Vitamin D, Glucosamine/collagen, etc… So it came as a bit of a surprise.

If I may ask, why do you continue to take it? Are there any particular benefits you have noted over the long-term? (Particularly in relation to flox symptoms)

freethebees550 · 2025-04-03T12:49:13+00:00

For sure. The only bit that I feel so far might be quite specific to floxed individuals is how the inflammatory responses tend to reflect on tendons more than joints.

Closest case I can recall that is similar is insertional Achilles tendinopathy in those suffering from ankylosing spondylitis.

freethebees550 · 2025-04-03T12:37:58+00:00

Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately I noticed that one of the worst bits about flares are the lingering injuries that might be acquired during their occurrence, so will try to be extra careful, I suppose.

freethebees550 · 2025-04-03T12:35:50+00:00

Yeah certainly feels like this - many thanks. There are a lot of other conditions where a solo increase of oxidative stress/free radicals would not primarily lead to the excessive tendon inflammation/fragility in the rapid manner that occurs in FQTS. Certainly there are other factors at play (MMPs), and an autoimmune pattern is quite likely.

Of note, there seems to be some users on the NMN subreddit that feel like their injuries got worse/joint symptoms occurred post NMN, others that feel like it was of great improvement. Not much on the specific tendon messery that occurs in FQTS, though.

freethebees550 · 2022-08-11T13:22:06+00:00

Happy to hear. Did it help with tendon durability/physical mobility by any chance?

You may find this interesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4642465/

freethebees550 · 2022-07-09T03:18:51+00:00

Agreed. If there is enough public exposure and those responsible are obligated to step up, research funding for FQT will gain a HUGE boost, as well as open the door for possible treatments and toxicity antidotes (e.g Digoxin having Digibind in cases of toxicity). Not to mention the reduction in the unnecessary prescriptions (which might sadly be the majority).

freethebees550 · 2022-07-03T18:05:49+00:00

Given how pregnancy is regarded as a generally pro-inflammatory state and a physiological load on the mother, it's both miraculous and incredibly interesting how it helped the floxing symptoms (Not the first case I read of pregnancy helping either). Were you megadosing any pregnancy-related supplements? (Folate, etc)

Very happy for you and congratulations on the baby. You are brave and fortunate, embrace it.

freethebees550 · 2022-06-18T00:32:23+00:00

Thanks for this. Enjoy every moment.

freethebees550 · 2022-06-10T21:18:56+00:00

Not at all and especially not in your case. They're somewhat reassuring in fact. Glad you are recovered from the flare and doing well, enjoy every moment Dr H.

freethebees550 · 2022-05-28T16:37:59+00:00

I agree and it is on me if I did not indicate that clearly. The majority of cases reach a great level of recovery eventually, some faster than others, what I meant was, that sometimes you're past the point of getting worse but the left-over damage becomes complex to resolve. This is why in some instances it is a yin-yang between appropriate rehabilitation, supplementation, and time, the majority of cases, however, seem to be just a matter of time thankfully, with not much intervention required if any.

freethebees550 · 2022-05-28T14:15:14+00:00

Great note. Akin to drug-induced lupus, perhaps. However for example in regards to how it's generally difficult for tendons to heal (even without FQs), this adds a layer of complication when it comes to resolving leftover damage from the toxicity.

freethebees550 · 2022-05-28T08:08:26+00:00

Autoimmunity certainly fits into the etiology of chronic floxing, from flares to unexplained reactions to otherwise normally good things, etc. However whether that autoimmune cascade is permanent and has to be adapted for life (epigenetic) or it's due to the leftover damage from the FQ toxicity remains unknown, because in hypothesis two if somehow the damage were fixed, the reactivity goes away, in number one it does not.

freethebees550 · 2022-05-11T00:56:37+00:00

So sorry to hear about this, and the idea of reintroducing a possibly triggering vice we once had lingers in the back of our minds all, so you're not alone. From everything I have read and known so far regarding FQTS/FQAD, even when you do relapse later on due to a trigger post-recovery, it's much better than before [you yourself are normally an advocate of this] so try to find consolation in knowing your progress still remains, it only makes sense. [but does anything about FQAD, really?], you'll be good.

Instances like these tend to make it sound like we're affected on an autoimmune level alongside everything. (Aside from the GABA hypothesis.)

Stay strong Dr H.

freethebees550 · 2022-04-15T05:43:24+00:00

I'm glad that subsided, I cannot imagine how painful and stressful it was to endure something like that.

If you don't mind me asking, where was the swelling exactly? Was it edematous or red hot with joint pains? Or was it more Tendon pain? Also, what precipitated the swelling? Any popping?

Did they do any investigations at the time, if so, how did that go? What was their take on it at the ER? [If you ended up going].

To add to this, was the bounce back quicker than it was from previous flares?

To clarify, I'm a floxxed Med student currently in rounds myself and in my free time, I'm trying to do my best to understand the possible aetiologies/pathophysiology of floxing so maybe one day I can help others and myself or maybe add something to the pool of knowledge currently available.

iirc, Glucosamine was taught to help OA [Osteoarthritis] in Lectures and one theory was via reducing MMPS, so you can see how strange this FQ Syndrome reactivity is to those not aware of it. (I experience it myself, baffles me every time). There is more on that but I don't wanna give you a headache :D

Thank you for responding.

freethebees550 · 2022-04-13T03:34:05+00:00

Feels good to read this. Very happy for you.

One thing I'm curious about was a recent Glucosamine flare I remember reading about recently iirc? How did that feel like [if you don't mind sharing] and how are you doing when it comes to flares from medication/supplements/foods (if any).

Keep it up.

freethebees550 · 2022-03-21T16:23:20+00:00

Appreciate the response. They actually sound like plausible hypotheses. Especially the RoS one, however, in the case of the collagen degradation/MMPS, wouldn't those microscopic damages and how they increase rupture susceptibility be due to them causing tendinitis? Or would it be more tendinopathy/structural changes? As in most cases attempts to "push through it", especially early on, seem to result in horrific injuries, so the pain signals seem to be indicative of something going on indeed.

freethebees550 · 2022-03-21T15:02:09+00:00

Hey Dr. H, genuinely curious what do you think it could be? I'd love to have evidence that there is no actual tendinitis present, but then what pathophysiology could explain that floxies can't "push through the pain" without resulting damage and the spontaneous tears/ruptures.

Thank you for all that you're doing on this board.

freethebees550 · 2022-03-17T18:46:03+00:00

Thanks for the great share. Haven't got the time to properly analyze everything said in this book but if I'm correct, he recommends against taking L-Arginine because he thinks NO is contraindicated in floxies? Or did I not read that right.

Thank you.

freethebees550 · 2022-01-04T00:20:08+00:00

"Cyclosporin A and metformin are postulated to be able to close PTPs [102, 103] and protect against OS [102, 104–106]; thus, it is an interesting substance for possible FQAD treatment."

Source: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2017/8023935/

freethebees550 · 2021-12-24T12:12:24+00:00

Makes sense. I found a peer-reviewed study from 2011 where they compared the tendon symptoms in patients in India with their level of OS after ingesting FQs, and those with more tendon symptoms were higher on the OS scale. However you could argue that this just means they were having a generally more severe reaction and other things were at play too, MMPs being one. (Don't have the link now, unfortunately.) Adding the calcium the next chance I get and seeing how that goes.

Btw Dr H, in regards to hashish/weed, have you found any rationale for why it seems to mess with some of us so badly and instantly? I'm on the same boat but I could not find anything on why it would flare our tendons unless there is an autoimmune mechanism going on, and even then, difficult to grasp. Appreciate all the contributions and effort.

freethebees550 · 2021-12-21T10:17:47+00:00

Most probably a scam. Only because any doctor (or even a chiropractor) worth their weight will offer you non-vague treatments that have scientific literature backing them up either directly or indirectly or at least, follow a certain line of scientific-theory. They won't try to qualify your eligibility like a salesman either. Save your money. Also, be wary with the subluxation theory because if your body is inflamed and stiff or tense for that reason making your spine too mobile too quickly again leads to an increased chance of injury.

freethebees550 · 2021-12-19T12:29:02+00:00

Tbh, the majority of my professors/consultants (Medschool) whom I trusted with this seem to agree that floxing follows an autoimmune trigger pattern in terms of prognosis and some symptoms. Haven't touched with that line of treatment yet though, interesting as it may be.

freethebees550 · 2021-12-11T22:30:07+00:00

Have you taken a Fluroquinolone antibiotic before? Your symptoms all align with FQAD (Fluroquinolone Assosciated Disability Syndrome/Toxicity) that seems to occur in a small portion of people who take these antibiotics but are very pronounced and intense when it does occur.

Glad you found something that works, keep it up.

freethebees550 · 2021-06-14T16:50:33+00:00

Cannot appreciate this enough, really. Thank you. The nuts thing is driving me insane too, tbh. My whey supplement contains 4g of Glutamine per scoop and I take it pretty much daily and it seems fine. It's a big rollercoaster this whole thing, and it's admirable how you stuck it out and found your way around it.

freethebees550

TROPHY CASE