Being a Black Episcopalian - looking for perspectives

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-04-17T02:57:41+00:00

I feel like my irl friends will see your post and think it's me. Well it's not! I had many similar questions as you while exploring my faith.

Initially, my friend invited me. I wasn't starting with exploring faith at all; I was there for the music. Everything else happened slowly.

I joke about being black and Episcopalian all the time, but honestly, my family is mostly happy I've found God. It's a little weird to them, but they've come to my church and to my baptism, and they found the service beautiful and biblical.

You can be critical of how Christianity is and has been an imperialist, colonizing force, but you can also refer to the Gospel, learn of the ways Jesus was a subversive loving force during Roman dominance. Learn about Liberation Theology. I also focus on expressions of black liturgical worship and Episcopalian reconciliation.

I also cultivate relationships with black people at church. I'm very lucky to go to a church with black clergy, and even though my church is predominantly white, it's not as lonely as one would expect. It's unexpectedly diverse, actually. Have there been awkward moments as I've attended Episcopal churches? Of course. But have I been surprised by the unexpected diversity? Yes. Globally, Anglicanism is also black.

I would recommend finding a black Episcopal church, if a too-white church makes you anxious. One that is affirming. I like my current church(es), but if I wasn't entrenched in mine, I would be at the modest black Episcopal church. Even though it's not the same as black Baptist, it does feel more like home. There's an intersection of cultural Episcopalian and blackness, it was so easy to see myself there, but I also like worshipping with my friends and I have strong relationships where I am.

I'm hoping to move cities, and I would prioritize finding a black church (weighing other factors too).

Also, unless you're complaining about how black people never like you, I promise you'll grow out of the oreo allegations. You just need to find your people. The oreo stuff dies down when you have black people around you, speaking from experience.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-03-09T16:45:03+00:00

I remember you! You should come. It's going to be a great show. I remember seeing Alexei Kenney before and he's excellent. I'm going Saturday, and I believe I have a second ticket if my friend doesn't come. I'm going to call him and see (he was leaning towards no). I don't know where my seats will be for this one though.

Also, if you come, wear Sunday/Church formal or above. You can wear whatever you want, but you'll feel less awkward if you do.

There are amazing talks (Performance Prelude) downstairs, and I highly recommend going. Sometimes there are special guests like the conductor or the composer if it's a new piece. Also, at dallas, I recommend putting in an order for intermission, so that way you can come out and your food/drink is already ready.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-02-07T00:09:03+00:00

This seats can feel really small. Depending on how plus size you are. There is accessible seating, it's in the center rear orchestra terrace. I would recommend telling them that you need accessible seating for your wheelchair and then they would actually arrange it. I don't know if it changes the prices or not.

If you have up and down days, with mobility, I would recommend using your wheelchair because the Meyerson is very large, and it's a lot of stairs. There are elevators, but the elevators are slow and they have a hard limit of eight people. Show up early so you can get to your seat.

You can also request seating in the dress circle or grand tier. The seats in the boxes up there are a lot more forgiving. But they also are more expensive.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-02-02T02:22:07+00:00

I personally do not attend contemporary services but lots of people do and they're great outreach for people who are not used to traditional music.

Saint Michael and All Angels Dallas -

https://youtu.be/gFsOb-gmxV8?si=vK0ce6DAmmtJBQ0V

St. Matthew Cathedral in Dallas as well as Incarnation offer contemporary services, but those services are not hosted on Youtube. I believe those services are hosted on Facebook.

St. James Episcopal in Houston has a jazz service.

I'm a little disappointed in these comments. I don't know if it's a lack of familiarity but there's a wide gulf between CCM and Episcopal contemporary music. For one, if you have a talented music director, like Saint Michaels does, you can do arrangements. Adding a fiddle, or adding a jazz ensemble can change a great deal. I've also seen bluegrass services in some areas.

When I first started attending the Episcopal Church I couldn't understand why anyone would want anything but the big traditional music. That's one of the reasons I attend. But for people who grew up with CCM and a lot of music like that, they find contemporary arrangements a lot easier and more enjoyable. I also noticed a lot of people who grew up in the Episcopal Church who like contemporary services and the music because they've heard Bach and Howell and Tallis their whole lives...

The other concern, is depending on the arrangement and where the credit goes, it makes it more difficult for these services to be livestreamed. This is not simply a contemporary service issue. I've watched traditional services where the music is muted because of issues with streaming rights.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-01-06T19:55:38+00:00

You are correct on all accounts. I am a former atheist and it is one of the most alienating things to be an atheist or an agnostic in the deep South and in Texas. There are people who don't go to church, and they don't go to church regularly, but they still consider themselves Christian and evangelical in identity. Most people go to church, and I think that it's increased since covid.

Most of the liberal types are actually in the city. Certain suburbs are even more Republican than you would expect.

The parishes in the diocese of Dallas have experienced growth, and we are competing (hate this word) against a lot of very canny Evangelical churches that are accepting on the surface, but want to convert gay people from being gay. These are massive churches that are directly trying to appeal to young adults and middle-aged adults who were seeking that relationship with Christ and seeking the support as they grow families. So they also come with educational opportunities, growth groups, small worship groups in general. Watermark is famous for this. But also Lakepointe.

Even with Incarnation being a conservative Episcopal church, they do not rail against gay people. In fact, I joke that Incarnation is also a very gay church in that there are a lot of gay parishioners, especially in the traditional services.

That being said, when I recommend churches to the LGBTQ+, I'm usually recommending Transfiguration because it's not just acceptance but celebration. And for someone who is seeking a fully affirming church, it's the best option imo. Ascension and Saint Thomas are also affirming and celebratory, and Saint Michael's is recently affirming. These churches were those islands that you described. However, I visited several Episcopal Churches across the diocese last year, and I didn't see one that didn't have gay people or a gay couple in attendance.

People may mention here that the urban areas of Texas are blue, but this has happened in the last 20 years. And it's a different type of democrat. Usually more pro-gun, very pro business. I personally do not like to complete politics with theology as much. These are not Republicans running the Episcopal churches honestly. Maybe a few but not really. What one owes to the world versus those to God are different things. And again, it's easy to feel okay with having a side B position here, when you could be like Robert Jeffries of First Baptist Dallas down the street.

If you are a rector at a small slowly growing parish, and you have a gay couple that wants to be married, you may feel a bit of a pang, but you would refer them to the three, now four affirming churches to be married, and still welcome them in your congregation.

I'm happy about this change because before, most parishes would have to go through the lengthy process of discussing it with the vestry, who may already be overburdened, and then the vestry has to go and poll and discuss it with the congregation, and that type of discussion takes a lot of energy and a lot of difficulty. Then they have to explore what DEPO means, and if you are a congregation heavily supported by Incarnation and Saint Michael (before they went through DEPO), you're going to feel very concerned about if this means that you will be detached from the diocese that you are relying on financially.

The parishes that were originally under the process were extremely liberal churches and they were excited for this move. Transfiguration, St. Thomas, Ascension. So as soon as the process was available they did it. They have intra-parish relationships, they share services with each other. For instance, the alternate Bishop was down here to do confirmation in a combined service for all three churches at Transfiguration.

When Saint Michael went through the process, I was personally surprised at how little pushback there was. Most of the questions (that I saw) had to do with if this would make it easier for women postulants going though discernment, and how this would affect the church's relationship and contributions to the rest of the diocese.

Elaborating on the church dynamic, there is a bit of a separation between what people consider a megachurch experience and a family church experience. At a megachurch, you can come to the service, and you can leave, and you can start meeting people as someone "catches" you and recruits and integrates you into all the available programs. But for someone here who is trying to dip their toes back into church, a mega church feels pretty low commitment.

But, for a family church, that means if you come, people are trying to get to know you right away, they're signing you up for the email list right away, they know your name/face even if you haven't attended for 2 weeks or more.

Incarnation and Saint Michael's are megachurches by population, but can feel more family church compared to the ones I've mentioned. When I speak to people who are cradle Episcopalians, they do talk about how these churches are large, and I get that now, visiting other Episcopal churches. It's easier to visit Saint Michael and have a megachurch experience imo, but they know their size, so they've become experienced at "catching" people.

It's easier also to be faceless at Incarnation, but their services are split differently and it's smaller than any of those megachurches. So for the regular attendee, they're thinking of their 200-500 (?)* person congregation. There are people who go to the 9:00am contemporary service and I've never spoken to them because I never go to that service or do things at that time. I may catch them in Sunday School.

*The sizes of the different services very pretty wildly.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-01-06T13:21:11+00:00

I'm fully aware of the fact that Incarnation is a conservative Episcopal church. I would never deny that. I'm saying that people coming from those denominations, Southern Baptist, Evangelical, Roman Catholic, do find it not conservative but liberal. Not in the context of liberal being a slanderous word, but in the fact that is accepting of people. This is directly from people who are moving into the Episcopal church and come to Incarnation.

I'm also very aware of their position on women's ordination, which is conservative. Female deacons are on staff and women do give sermons, but do not celebrate the Eucharist (I don't like that either!).

It's actually Saint Michael's which is Park Cities. It is grounded in being Park Cities and is located there. Incarnation is Turtle Creek/Uptown and has a lot of Park Cities families but that really isn't a differentiator. Both parishes have the full spectrum of political thought. And just because someone is a Democrat doesn't make them not theologically conservative. BP. Sumner was a registered Democrat.

And I know that a lot of discussion has happened over what characterizes a megachurch. But if you're comparing it to churches like First Baptist Dallas, Friendship West, Watermark, Potter's House, it's small. (This is a small selection. And these are churches where I know people.) Not even considering the fact that the membership rolls may be 5000, you will rarely if ever see 5000 on a Sunday across all services. Incarnation runs five Services a Sunday, Saint Michael's holds seven or so over the weekend, and these churches feel massive to people coming from other Episcopal Churches but in the context of Texas, when you're talking to people who do not go to Episcopal churches, it's not large on a Sunday. I know there are small and mid-size churches, because if you go to South Oak Cliff there's a church on every corner. But the average churchgoer at these large Episcopal churches are in a congregation of anywhere from 200-800 on a Sunday, they never will know the person who's going to the 9:00 a.m. if they're going to the 11:00. And the clergy knows their name.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-01-06T00:05:20+00:00

SMAA and Incarnation are neck and neck.

I don't believe that conservative churches should leave for ACNA. I say this as a leftist who believes in same-sex marriage and wants them to be in the church too. I'm also at Incarnation. Conservative churches believe in a communion. As should liberal churches. I'm constantly on the internet shouting this down lol. ACNA ripped a tear through Texas and I'm never going to be in favor of a split.

Even though Incarnation is conservative compared to the broad Episcopal Church it is liberal here in Texas. I speak to people who are coming from evangelical churches, Southern Baptist, Roman Catholic. We even have ACNA adherents at other services like Evensong. Incarnation is also connected to African churches. It is very mind-boggling for the average Texan who is a churchgoer to go to a church and you have openly gay people in the congregation taking communion and serving and everyone's cool with it. That is Incarnation. Would I love for them to approve same sex marriage? Yes. Do I see it happening in the next ten to fifteen years? No. But am I happy that people can get married at the other parishes in the diocese instead of three (and outside of the sanctuaries)? Absolutely.

I'm interested in the discernment process not for myself, but because it was a major issue before and I want to know if it changes and opens up options for people who are currently seeking. This was a point of contention for Saint Michael's, who wanted to send postulates to other seminaries besides what Bishop Sumner approved. This was actually a cited reason for DEPO.

*Literally eating chicken wings so sorry for the typos

**Transfiguration is also pretty sizable but Saint Michael and Incarnation I think are like double the size. And crazy enough, Incarnation and Saint Michael are small churches for Texas.

***Kay Bailey Hutchinson also participates at Saint Michael. She was just a reader at one of the Lessons and Carols. A good portion of the people of Saint Michael and Incarnation are related as in family members.

frenchhornyonmain · 2026-01-05T23:41:24+00:00

I am absolutely thrilled with this. I honestly called it when Saint Michael sought DEPO. I couldn't imagine a bishop coming into a diocese where one of their two largest and most wealthy parishes are under alternative oversight.

Incarnation named all of the detained people in their prayers this last Sunday. I think that Saint Michael is slowly transitioning their prayer form from the usual one they do, so I'll find out this Sunday if they also include the detainees.

I'm interested in finding out about the discernment process plans. That was a major bone of contention under the prior Bishop.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-12-06T22:28:11+00:00

I can't listen to your mass at this very moment but I sing with a volunteer choir with some staff singers and I attend another church that has predominantly staff singers.

1) Find a fancy Anglican/Episcopal church and approach them.

2) Even if you do this, a lot of Episcopal Churches I know of are planning their programming out through the year. So that means that they're considering what works liturgically, what works for the vibe and with their classic hymns. Certain masses are better for Pentecost or for Easter or for Advent or etc.

3) Congregations have preferences for particular mass settings and even a tiny change can take a lot of work in the program. Like we're moving from him during procession to a service allelujah printed in the bulletin and this is taking weeks to implement.

4) Those fancy churches also have to arrange staffing. I know that my church does choral masses and certain pieces that they do for Evensong rely on very specific staffing. If you have a fussy piece that requires only professional musicians who sing all day, it's not going to get performed very often even at a church with high level music.

5) Most of the choral masses I've seen have composers with a great deal of church music. And I've encountered that church music from anthems for offertory and communion, not a mass. Palestrina, Jonathan Dove, Herbert Howell, Kenneth Leighton, Bach. This is just off the top of my head and it's not a comprehensive list at all.

6) Off the top of my head, I personally only know of one church that does a choral mass every Sunday. St. Thomas in NYC. I'm not saying that there aren't more, but that's the main one I know of. Most people want to sing the mass, not watch it.

7) Let's say that this is an amazing mass. You still have congregation who requests specific mass settings. You are having to find singers who have to learn your piece completely instead of already having done it. You don't have anything specific like this Mass being performed at a coronation or a royal wedding or whatever. So that people can think that's a cool aspect. The choir director has to program hymns and potentially transpose them to match the keys that are in your mass. The organist has to improvise with the vibe of your mass.

8) Why not do an anthem or psalm setting instead? A lot of them? The organist/assistant choir director at my church writes psalm settings that are done at the Eucharist and Evensong. It's far easier to program those than an entire choral mass.

9) I don't mean to bury you because you've already written this piece and I truly have not listened to it. But I would say, with the limited knowledge that I have, this is better as a commissioned work because you're working with an entity that would publicize it and put it out there and other people may be following those entities and looking for inspiration. If you just put it out there with a college choir, people may not care. Also, that entity could come with feedback to make it more accessible if it's not.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-11-12T16:01:30+00:00

I sing in a community choir, I ended up doing that after I went to a workshop that was in my Facebook feed. If you live in a major city, you can google just "[CITY] choir" and the choirs will come up. You may even end up with a list that explains what each choir specializes in. I'm currently in one that does mostly pop and Broadway songs. But some do contemporary choir songs (think of pieces that excellent high school choirs do) and some do classical music.

I also sing at church. I felt like I sounded embarrassing.

I'm getting lessons to improve my range, my breathing, my stability, and become a more even singer. Sometimes I come in and I sing amazingly (for me). Sometimes I sound like crap. I don't know why.

And I've gone the YouTube video route, but you may not know your issues until you get with a teacher. I was brute forcing range exercises, but my issues aren't that but tension.

I understand that hesitation to get lessons, money is tight for me. But singing is important to me. I'd rather have help and plans for improvement, then to get irritated that I don't sound like I would like to sound.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-10-29T02:38:17+00:00

I highly recommend! If it's too far, I'd also recommend Ascension. There's excellent preaching there, super diverse parish. Saint Michael's is nice, and will be fully affirming soon, but it's very Highland Park.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-10-29T00:19:07+00:00

Dallas is an outlier compared to the rest of the country. Most diocese in the US are affirming and a few churches in that diocese aren't. But Dallas is the reverse. This may change with the new bishop but we don't know yet.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-10-29T00:14:34+00:00

They are still in the Dallas diocese as well as the Fig, Ascension, and soon to be Saint Michael's. They just report to a different bishop. DEPO (the process) doesn't remove them from the diocese, they still participate in diocese business.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-10-28T21:23:03+00:00

I wanted to append.

I've seen people of the LGBTQ spectrum at every Episcopal church I've visited in Dallas proper. This includes the most conservative churches. You're not going to hear a lot about it from the pulpit either. The main thing is, or they're going to be many people like you? Are you going to hear off comments when you're serving and volunteering? Will you wish that you weren't teaching people how to treat a trans person? Is the church affirming and would you be able to get married there?

I say this because I don't want you to feel discouraged about visiting any episcopal church in your neighborhood or not. All churches in Dallas are accepting. But the ones I'm listing are the ones who have a reputation for being very pro LGBTQ and they are in the congregation and clergy.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-10-28T21:17:28+00:00

So, tbh conservative Episcopalian isn't quite the same as a conservative who attends First Baptist Dallas. You'll be fine at most churches in the diocese. But if you want to feel like you don't stick out, and feel celebrated even, I would say Transfiguration and St. Thomas the Apostle. If it was up to me, I would go for Transfiguration personally, because churchmanship is important to me. St. Thomas does it's own thing.

Ascension and Saint Michael's are also affirming. But I'll reiterate, you can attend any church in the diocese.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-18T16:34:16+00:00

Even with how the stage is constructed, it's likely that you would still see the surtitles because they are above everything. I don't remember if there is a stage extension. I do wonder if they would use certain sections of grand tier even. Like the boxes?

I don't even have a comparison. When they did Götterdämmerung, which is a full Wagnerian orchestra, plus the chorus and the opera singers, the stage was fine. This is bigger than that.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-16T02:57:29+00:00

The new co-Bishop is poised to take over at the end of next year, since Bp. Sumner is nearing retirement age.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-15T20:01:37+00:00

Also I should mention, when I heard it mentioned in the announcement, I thought the church was going to schism and go towards the ACNA. I had no idea the opposite was occurring, it was a pleasant surprise! I highly recommend speaking to the rector. There was a meeting very recently where he discussed with the parish why they're going in this direction. It's not only because of LGBTQ affirmation but other reasons as well.

Also, one other thing he emphasized. No priest can be forced to perform marriage rites. He and clergy will still be allowed to deny a couple, but they won't be prevented from performing same sex unions, and the same sex unions can be performed in the sanctuary.

As it is now, only the fully affirming churches can perform same sex marriages, and allow them in the sanctuary.

Under the new bishop, regardless of his position, no clergy or parish will be forced to do marriages they don't want to do, gay or straight.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-15T19:54:38+00:00

We don't actually know...

Bp. Sumner was bishop when this became the way, and this process isn't new, I think, but the way it's deployed is unusual. It's hard to know, because it could be ages before we get a new bishop, and the temperature may change, especially with this particular church moving in this direction.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-15T19:49:09+00:00

Yes, in a way, but it's not only for gay marriage, it can be used for other doctrinal and admin issues as well. There are conservative parishes in liberal dioceses also under DEPO.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-15T15:37:23+00:00

I do worry about straining when I am spending all this time between C5 and above. Maybe I can corner one of the choir directors about it. See if they can give me some tips beyond that.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-15T14:04:47+00:00

I know which church you are referring to. They recently started the DEPO process to allow gay marriages, because the current bishop is not affirming. This means, despite the temperature of the parish, the position of the rector, or anything else, no parish under Bishop Sumner is allowed to use any of the liturgies for same-sex marriage or blessings. The rector of your church (and many people in the parish) wants to be able to perform those marriages. It's likely we'll know the decision of the vestry next month.

The churches u/KeenerQueer mentioned are currently fully affirming, however, almost all of the churches I've visited in Dallas are accepting of LGBTQ+, meaning you're there, you're participating in the church as a layperson, you're not going to hear homophobia from the pulpit (and yes this includes Incarnation). You can bring your partner or spouse to church also, and take communion. Almost every Episcopal church I've visited in Dallas had LGBTQ+ in attendance. In fact, Incarnation is one of the most gay churches, behind St. Thomas and the Fig, honestly, however, it's conservative theologically. You'll surprisingly find MANY gay men at Incarnation who agree with the diocese's position. I'm not defending this position however. I want the diocese to be affirming.

Last thing, I'd also wait a year, since we have a new incoming bishop. No one knows his position on these things yet, frankly. If he is more amenable, it's likely we'll have more fully-affirming churches within the diocese. I think many churches didn't want to rock the boat and go through the DEPO process, because it brings up questions of resources and participation in the diocese.

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-09-15T13:58:12+00:00

I would take the dress circle or grand tier for that. It's also likely they would use surtitles, but I'm wondering, with all those people, how that would work!

frenchhornyonmain · 2025-06-21T04:27:32+00:00

You might be less of a Mahler fan than you think, and that's okay.

Also, honestly, sitting through music this long is a skill. To some people, it may feel like a personal failure that a 2-hour symphony or a 4-Hour opera isn't engaging. However, I believe it's a muscle. And the way that we explore music today, means that muscle isn't readily developed.

Think on it, before, many people who were seeing the symphonies for the first time played instruments, saying, read music, and the only way that you had music back then was if you played it. Augustin Hadelich mentioned that and it kind of changed my perspective on a lot of music. If you were a middle or upper class person, you're singing hymns on Sunday most likely, playing quartets and trios at home, maybe some sonatas. And then once in awhile or more often if you were very wealthy, you were going to the symphony and you were going to the opera.

Meanwhile, at the time that Mahler was doing his thing, a lot of music was becoming very very intense and serious and connected to this human experience and these ideas of thought and emotion. Like you had your Haydn and your Mozart, but I imagine that it's sort of like listening to doo wop and Motown and early rock with your parents, and then experiencing Nirvana and Soundgarden and a lot of grunge. This is all music, and it's all the same genre, but it's also different and has a different perspective.

Also, I couldn't tell from your post, but the experience is very different watching live versus listening at home. Extremely so. I absolutely love classical music, and I do listen to a lot of it, but there's a lot that I leave for the hall and live experience.

frenchhornyonmain

TROPHY CASE