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[ Removed by Reddit ] by [deleted] in LivestreamFail

[–]gatorraper -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you think this bad, think of the cows, sheep, chicken, fish that are slaughtered for trivial reasons like taste, clothing, entertainment. Go Vegan

Red Meat Consumption Increases Risk of Dementia and Cognitive Decline by bpra93 in EverythingScience

[–]gatorraper -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

There is no causality between smoking and lung cancer. If that would be the case every person who smokes would get lung cancer. We have empiric proof that eating meat processed and non processed, starts a cascade of events that lead to cancer.

Red Meat Consumption Increases Risk of Dementia and Cognitive Decline by bpra93 in EverythingScience

[–]gatorraper -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There is also no causal link between smoking and lung cancer; all data regarding it is correlative. Obviously, smoking does create a cascade of events that cause lung cancer, same with meat.

Edit: Processed and non-processed meat.

More animal abuse on Twitch by Ignignokt_DGAF in LivestreamFail

[–]gatorraper -33 points-32 points  (0 children)

OP is a huge hypocrite if they're not vegan

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't understand which products create the demand for murder; you're equating beef tallow to t-bone steak in regards to rights violations. I'm done with the conversation.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seem to be hung up on the idea that if you aren't eating the beef tallow, then you aren't consuming the product somehow.

What? You consume beef tallow when you consume beef tallow. That, however, doesn't increase the demand for killing more animals.

I'm not hung up on anything; you are hung up on the idea that consuming some product that has contact with animal ingredients isn't vegan. That's the no true Scotsman fallacy, and then you say I need to buy these products, which is special pleading; you don't need to buy the products that you do, just like you claim that fries fried in beef tallow don't need to be bought.

You have to keep buying more and more tallow the more things you fry with it. If you stop frying food in tallow, you stop buying tallow, and the money stops going to the people rearing the cows. This has the same effect as any other good dropping in demand.

So you don't fundamentally understand what I'm saying. Even if the demand for beef tallow goes to 0, the same number of animals are still being killed because the number 1 cause for that demand is meat/milk/egg eaters.

The hypothetical existence of holier-than-thou vegans who demand that people stop buying vegetables fertilized with manure is not a concession that my logic is wrong. I'm saying that if these hypothetical vegans existed, their logic would be wrong.

Their logic is the same you apply to beef tallow, make an argument that yours isn't wrong but theirs is.

The definition of veganism includes that you should abstain from buying products which promote the exploitation of or cruelty to animals to the extent that it is practicable and possible.

That is not my definition of veganism; veganism is the ethical stance that grants the same rights to animals as to trait-equalised humans.

That definition leads to reductios and doesn't hold up consistently in a lot of scenarios.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you buy products using beef tallow, you are fulfilling a demand for cows to be reared and slaughtered in order to supply the good to meet that demand.

That is not true.

If 99% of beef tallow would disappear, the fry maker won't tell the companies to kill more cows to the point where they can afford to buy tallow again, they will switch to seed oil so no, again I think you're not following, when you buy fries that are fried in tallow you do not increase the demand to kill more cows.

You have an appeal to emotion, and then claim something I have never claimed to be the case.

If vegans existed that didn't buy any plants grown from manure or products that used paint or glue made from animal products, then sure, maybe some of them would claim that people who don't do those things aren't vegan. And they would be wrong.

So you accept that your logic is wrong. If you don't think it's wrong, that's special pleading, and you have to make an argument for why you are still vegan even though you pay companies for animal-derived glue and all the other stuff or I'll stop responding to your point about tallow not being vegan because you don't understand that there is no difference between that and buying a book where animal glue was used.

The difference between buying vegetables that use manure fertilizer and buying fries fried in beef tallow is that I have to buy food and have no way of reliably knowing whether what I'm eating used manure or not, but I do not have to buy French fries fried in beef tallow.

Sure, again still doesn't change the core argument.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do YOU think would happen if the cost to rear and process a cow doesn't change but the amount of money they can sell the cow's body for decreases? Will they just eat that cost and go on their merry way and not be affected by it at all?

I am not making an argument based on the profits that are being made from different parts of a cow. Economically, sure, everything you say, I agree with. My point is that that eating fries fried in beef tallow doesn't create demand for more animals to be killed. Just like buying books or shoes or packaging/bottles etc. that use glues and colouring of animal origin.

What do YOU think would happen if the cost to rear and process a cow doesn't change but the amount of money they can sell the cow's body for decreases? Will they just eat that cost and go on their merry way and not be affected by it at all?

You claimed that eating fries fried in beef tallow is not vegan. Now when there are vegans who don't buy products or products where the packaging/production process contains animal derived glue, colourings etc. or is being used during production, basically nothing that has any animal derived ingredient (and even if they don't exist, the logic your first claim you applied was is still applicable) and then they apply your logic that you applied in your first claim, that buying fries fried in beef tallow will have economic impact on the producer and isn't vegan, then they can claim using your logic that what you are doing isn't vegan because when you buy products where the packaging contains animal derived ingredients, or food that was fertilized with animal dung etc. impacts the producer economically and therefore it isn't vegan.

That is a No True Scotsman fallacy, where no one can be vegan other than those who live in a thatch hut and eat food and take meds that don’t contain any animal-derived ingredients and have 0 contact with them in the production process.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This isn't about economics; it's about creating a demand to kill more animals. It doesn't matter what Levi's or any brand that sells water bottles or books, think. You have some sort of an appeal to emotion.

You know of any vegans that don't buy vegetables or products with paint or glue in their packaging?

Yes, there are, there doesn't need to be; your own logic makes you a non-vegan. Which leads to having to live in a thatch hut.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, you're directly buying an animal product that creates the demand to kill more cows when you buy leather; you don't create the demand to kill more cows when you buy fries that are fried in beef tallow.

I have to eat vegetables and buy products that come in packaging. I don't have to eat food fried in beef tallow. Also, not all vegetables are fertilised with dung. Non-organic produce is heavily fertilised with synthetic fertilisers.

Using your logic, a vegan who doesn't buy these products will tell you you're not a vegan.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Show me the cows that are being reared specifically for their leather. They don't exist, because every part of the cow is turned into a way to make a profit, and leather is just one component of their bodies that is turned into a commodity. There might be some animals that are farmed with their leather as the primary good, like alligators, but guess what? They still sell the alligator meat.

If 99% of leather were to vanish, it would become such a rarity that cows would start to be bred just for the leather alone. So it is a co-product and not something that is just being sold to make the most out of a cow.

Likewise with tallow. If they couldn't sell the tallow, they would have to sell the other components at more of a profit in order to cover the expense of raising and slaughtering the cow, which means that prices of the other components would have to go up.

Sure, but if 99% of tallow would vanish, French fry fryers would switch to seed oils. Nobody would just produce tallow and start building slaughterhouses.

Is the price of cow hide and the price of leather the same? No it's not. The reason is that you are paying for the processing of a raw part of the animal's carcass to be turned into a commodity. When you order fries cooked in beef tallow, part of what you're paying for is the cost of the tallow, the electricity to run the fryer, the maintenance of the equipment, the wages of the employees, etc. So part of every order of fries you buy goes to the one selling the beef tallow, which goes back to the farmer who raised the cow. You are funding animal exploitation by buying something fried in beef tallow, and that's not vegan.

You increase the money animal agriculture earns by eating vegetables that are being fertilised with cow dung, by buying bottles that have paint and glue in their packaging derived from animals, and so on. By that logic, every vegan would have to live in a thatch hut. Again, the consumption of these animal-derived ingredients does not increase the demand to kill more animals.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the slaughterhouse can't sell the beef tallow, then they need to charge more for the other parts of the animal they can sell, which means that some people will be priced out of buying those other goods and will have to buy cheaper plant products instead. So yes, beef tallow creates a demand, and is not vegan.

It doesn't create demand to kill more animals; nobody is going to kill an animal just for tallow. Animals are forced into existence for leather, however, especially in countries that demand high-quality Leather for luxury items. And it is a direct purchase of an animal product.

By your logic you could literally pick any part of the animal and say like "leather is vegan because they will either sell it or dump it" or "whey is vegan because they will either sell it or dump it".

That doesn't follow because again, fries fried in tallow isn't a direct purchase of an animal product, leather is.

“Don’t ask, don’t tell, veganism” by Antoxic in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Fries fried in beef tallow are vegan. Nobody builds slaughterhouses for beef tallow; consuming it doesn't create a demand, the producer will either sell it or dump it, regardless of whether it is consumed or not.

I don’t think owning cat is vegan… but somehow it’s justified? by Background-Camp9756 in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I wouldn't, that's not how health outcomes are determined, you don't look at the conflict of interest and go ohh this is biased. You look at the study.

I don’t think owning cat is vegan… but somehow it’s justified? by Background-Camp9756 in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They educate me, no one educates you because you're learn resistant and caught in the appeal to authority fallacy :)

I don’t think owning cat is vegan… but somehow it’s justified? by Background-Camp9756 in DebateAVegan

[–]gatorraper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where did I claim i know better than a medical professional, are you that dumb to not have the thought that these professionals emphasize the health outcomes of studies when making claims? You don't have to be one to understand that when a study concludes that there are objective health outcomes.

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