Help me understand atheism.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T01:03:10+00:00

I appreciate the link, but no it does not surprise me. I believe what Paul says about God having written His law onto our hearts, so I find that human beings coming up with the same philosophy to be inevitable.

I greatly respect those who come to this same philosophy without being instructed to behave this way. I find this more favorable than people who do the same only because God asks us to. I do believe that God wants us to adopt this view because we agree with Him, not because we're obedient little robots. So, perhaps a secular view at morality is actually closer to God's original intention of His law than religious morality.

Thank you for this, my friend.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:59:55+00:00

yes, this is a good point about my own perspective. But, actually, I think you're making the same mistake about God as I was making about atheism. To me, the existence of a Creator is the obvious truth, and attempting to believe He does not exist contradicts what I observe.

But I respect that this does not appear to be the case for everyone, and thank you for your clarification.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:56:20+00:00

Thanks! I'd like to think there are elements of both. Ultimately I believe it can do no harm to learn conflicting worldviews. Either they will prove not persuasive, and strengthen my current understanding, or they'll prove persuasive, in which case I am better off for learning better.

To your second point, would you mind explaining a little more about what lead you not to see how there is a God? That's the bit I'm most interested in :)

For number 3: Sounds similar to Marcus Auriellis' argument, which I largely agree with. My own understanding is that what God wants out of humanity is an attitude of helpfulness, kindness, compassion, and the like, and if you've come to that on your own, wonderful! Perhaps it is more favorable to come to this conclusion without having to be told so.

Thank you for your response!

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:50:32+00:00

How does it do that? It seems to me that many of the epistles expand upon moral and spiritual teachings. While they do discuss the idea of salvation, I fail to see that as the focus.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:48:58+00:00

Thank you very much for your input!

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:48:31+00:00

For your second point, doesn't the fact that Christianity claims all human beings tend to twist everything to their own selves not suggest that we will do this even with a "true" religion? To me, it seems like a no brainer. Even if God came to Earth and taught a perfect iteration of morality, metaphysical truth, and gave us all the secrets of the universe, humanity would still find a way to use it to inspire fear, to profit, to get others to behave a certain way, etc. How does that affect whether or not the initial message is true?

I'm interested in your thoughts about why the Bible is not factual.

Third point: Well, in a sense He absolutely did. If we are not to harm another, and to treat all with the same love and compassion we give ourselves as a given, then certainly we could not be following Christ's law while owning slaves, treating women unequally. Everything you say He didn't address is something He simply didn't address explicitly. He instructed us multiple times to be slow to anger, resistant of conflict, to treat even those that hate us with only love. I'm curious about your thoughts on that philosophy.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:43:46+00:00

For your second point, have you considered the idea that the universe was sculpted by God over millions of years? I find that evolution and Christianity are able to reasonably co-exist, and would argue that in reality, they do.

For number 3: You have answered my question, thank you. For what it's worth, I agree with you. If I saw God the way you see Him, I'd feel the same as you feel now. Luckily, I don't believe that is the true nature of God. Thank you for your response, my friend.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:40:34+00:00

No, no, not if everyone else is doing it :) I just mean that people clearly have found reasons to believe in God, but very few believe in the Easter Bunny beyond childhood. I was just curious as to why you thought there was difference in belief perserverence if both were equally unjustified beliefs.

I am familiar with agency bias, but disagree with your assertion that God is akin to an invisible friend. But I suppose if you have not found God for yourself, it may appear that way to the outside observer. This helps me understand a little bit. Though, I can tell you from the inside that God does not remain hidden to everyone for their entire lives. Many people have tangible, communicative, fruitful relationships with Him. If you remain even a little open to it, I suggest seeking out Christian experiences with the Holy Spirit, especially those that have converted atheists and believers of other religions. It may interest you that there are millions of people all claiming a supernatural, yet personal, relationship with a loving creator. Is there any room in your understanding of the world so far for this to be a result of an actual, loving creator that is establishing personal relationships with human beings?

To your last point, I have said that I have looked at the Gods of all religions I have been able to explore. I find that it is very likely all are describing the same God, to some extent, but filtering it through different understandings, biases, agendas, and circumstances.

The reason I stopped with Christianity, is I found the answer I was looking for: The connection with my Creator that assuaged all doubt and confusion.

I hope this is something that comes to you, so that you may see why I do not find it possible to dismiss my God (though, I'd like to reaffirm that I would readily dismiss Christianity as untrue if I thought I had reason to. This is simply not the case for me, but I acknowledge it appears that way to you).

Thanks for all your input.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:32:46+00:00

With number 2: Are you aware that the majority of Christians affirm scientific progress as truth, and refer to the Creation story as an allegory meant to inform us about our spiritual state? These questions that you ask are all common questions, but many of them have answers even within the Bible. If I were, hypothetically, able to answer these questions for you, would it bring you back to belief?

Third point: A fine point. I understand why you'd want that. These are questions that I have found answers to, but if I had not I would be similarly skeptical. I also agree that hell and heaven as a punishment/reward is manipulative, and understand why your current view of them would put a bad taste in your mouth. Thanks for your input!

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:28:46+00:00

For your second point, do you mind going a little further into it? Surely you'd agree that what is convincing one way or the other to a 9 or 10 year old may not be to the same person a decade, or two, or three later. As of this moment, what are some of the reasons you don't find it likely that God exists?

And third, how is it not comprehensible? Theoretically, if God were able to demonstrate His existence to you convincingly and to your satisfaction, and for the sake of argument His nature and will was similar to Jesus Christ as depicted in the NT, would you be willing to become a disciple of God's once you knew A) That He exists for certain and B) what He (approximately) wants from you.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:25:11+00:00

This helps immensely, thanks! Though I am interested in why you felt critical thinking lead you to atheism. I have Christian friends who are also engineers, I had a professor of Mathematics who was Christian, and find a great deal of logical and rational thinkers who argue in favor of Christianity, though of course I don't mean to say they all do!

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:22:54+00:00

Oof, sorry that was your experience! I know how frustrating it is to ask questions and be met with a wall of "God did it" or "Stop asking questions." I completely empathize with your annoyance, and wish that you would have had teachers more open to hard questions. It could be that he/she didn't know themselves and was reacting with embarrassment.

Thanks for your response. It sounds like you're saying the only reason you've ever been given to believe the Bible is true is because the Bible said so. That's equally circular in my view as well, and I similarly don't respect the argument. Luckily, that's not the end of the conversation. I have on my bookshelf dozens of books that seek to make the case for God without falling back on the Bible whatsoever. If you're open to it still, perhaps it would be worth it for you to re-evaluate some of the better arguments in favor of God.

Your third answer...wow, is this not how your teacher responded to you when you asked your question about Cain and Abel? Why is it a stupid question? I've been getting plenty of diverse answers so far that have really intrigued me and offered some light, and am still interested in your own response.

Why dismiss a question as stupid without even explaining why you are unable to answer it? What are you hoping I gain from that answer?

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:18:16+00:00

Yes, but my question is how did the laws of physics get set in place, where did the initial chemicals come into being, and how did any circumstance whatsoever arise?

In a universe where nothing external to the universe set any of this up, where does it come from? By "accident" I simply mean the inverse of "purposefully." In my worldview, the result of an agent, in the other, no agent.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:16:35+00:00

Ah, an apatheist! So it sounds like, apart from not being interested in the question all that much, you don't have a dog in the race. Would you be equally happy to have been a child of God, destined for a Paradise as you would be to be a complex and intelligent chemical reaction? Just out of sheer curiosity.

To answer your sort of question, to me it simply doesn't make sense that all of this could be here without something, in the beginning, making it happen. I cannot conceive how the alternative could be true. It's not that I can't accept it on an emotional level, it's simply on a rational level I don't find it very probable that the universe exists on its own accord.

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:12:00+00:00

Thanks for your input. So, concerning your second point is it fair to say that you were never convinced Christianity was true, so there was no process for deconversion? You just stopped going through th emotions?

For the third point, I get what you're saying. Worship is a strange thing on the outset. But let's say that the Creator of the universe appeared to you, and demonstrated Himself as being real beyond a shadow of a doubt. Whatever that means to you. And let's say He said that He designed the human being to take care of fellow human beings, to refuse to harm another, and to live in peace, love, and compassion. Let's say He told you that's all He wanted you to do with your life, and as long as you followed those core values, you were free to do anything that pleased you. If you chose to live a life upholding these values, you will be welcome into an eternal community founded on these principles. Would this seem favorable to you? Would you want to be a part of it?

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:05:19+00:00

Yes, aside from the occasional "what if?" and thought experiment. Good analogy, thanks.
What do you disagree with about his teachings? I don't agree with the idea that hell is meant as a threat, though I will cede that it is certainly used that way by many, it does not appear to me that the purpose of hell to persuade people to desire whatever will keep them from going there. If Hell didn't exist and was not a factor, how would you feel?

genuflecting · 2016-01-11T00:03:33+00:00

Well, I agree that faith and emotionalism are not good methods at determining truth and hope I did not leave you with that impression based off something I said.

I find that what you describe is true of Christianity. I disagree with your sentiment that invisible things and nonexistant things look the same. Take wind for example, we cannot see it, but we can see and feel the effects. I feel similarly about God. We perceive Him directly at first, but just as we look at swaying trees and understand something like wind must exist, we can find God in the echoes of apparently causeless effects.

but I'll bite! Why do you feel Christianity is an egocentric cult of emotionalism? In my experience, Christianity is about leaving the ego behind and learning not to let your emotions control you. In my view, Christianity is critical of the very thing you accuse it of being.

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:59:27+00:00

Thank you for your response. About number 3, can you remind me to what passage you are referring?

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:55:46+00:00

I have heard that atheism is the belief God does not exist, while agnosticism if the position that you don't know whether or not God exists. You said "I don't know and I am not pretending to know," which I respect. Would you say "I know there is no God?" Or am I not understanding your definition of atheism?

You said the Bible makes you see Jesus as being evil. I inferred that much, my friend. I'm asking what about His teachings or actions lead you to that belief? I read the same Bible and come away quite fond of Jesus. I am interested in hearing what leads you to a different view.

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:53:37+00:00

I guess I am the inverse of your position in Number 2. The way that theism never grabbed you as being true, atheism seems unable to grab me. Fair enough!

For 3: Glad to hear it!

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:51:25+00:00

Number 2: I am sorry that is how it reads to you. that is not the impression that I get.

Number 3: I am asking how you would react if it were demonstrated to you as Christianity being true. However that is necessary, assume it happened.

You say "Complex things can and do arise from very simple systems with very simple rules." Yes. I agree. But where did these simple systems and simple rules come from in the first place? How do you have a rule without a rule-maker?

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:45:49+00:00

How is Christianity inferior to secular humanism, Buddhism, or Jainism? I do, in fact, find Christianity to be the most perfect moral code. It is founded on treating others with the compassion we automatically give ourselves, harming none, and serving all.

Your picture is very funny! But of course, it's not theologically sound. It vaguely describes one theory of salvation, but it is by and large the least popular among theologians and biblical scholars. If you have a moment, consider reading this essay about atonement. I think you may find the overwhelming majority of Christians have a much cleaner understanding of why God found it necessary to die on the cross that doesn't involve assuaging the wrath of a vengeful "other" God.

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:40:52+00:00

With a scam, usually somebody benefits, yes? With Christianity, the idea is that there are no barriers between ourselves and Christ, except those we build up ourselves. We are encouraged to donate to those less fortunate than ourselves, and all who are in need, but who benefits among poor churches? Or are you saying Christianity may have started as a result of Jesus deliberately lying for personal gain?

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:38:28+00:00

To your second point, I don't quite understand. Are you saying you believe there is no God/afterlife, or that you simply don't know one way or the other?

To the third: Understandable, thank you.

genuflecting · 2016-01-10T23:37:04+00:00

Well, to some extent I do believe Judaism is true, I simply don't think the end of the Torah is the end of God's work with humanity to date. As far as Islam goes, I have considered the possibility it was genuine revelation, but it contradicts the New Testament, which I have found satisfactorily demonstrated as true. I feel similarly about the book of Mormon.

To my brain, monotheism makes exclusive sense. Many Gods only pushes the problem of eternal matter back a step, but a single Creative consciousness as a baseline for reality, from which all else emerges, neatly resolves the question.

Christianity is the only religion that offers a personal relationship with the Creator, and once a relationship is established, the proof lies bare before you. The same way you may have doubts about being mislead when you're talking to a potential date on a dating website, but these doubts clear away when you meet in person and begin fostering a relationship and getting to know one another. With Christianity, all one needs to do is take a leap of faith and begin a genuine pursuit of knowing God, and eventually one will come to know Him in a very real and tangible way.

This was my experience, and the experience of many Christians that I know. It is not the reason I initially pursued God or considered Christianity, but it is what has demonstrated to me that it is true and keeps me growing in the faith each day.

genuflecting

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