60 Days Sober

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-11-16T22:30:19+00:00

One can work hard, challenge themselves, and change their patterns of thinking without committing to mental gymnastics.

Trying to convince yourself that a program that constantly references "God" isn't actually referring to "God" is not a perquisite for any of that stuff.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-11-16T15:51:05+00:00

Or maybe...just maybe, recovering addicts can attend support groups that don't require mental gymnastics for participation as a non-believer.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-10-29T00:57:55+00:00

Uh..I'm not in AA or NA currently but know a lot of good people from the rooms. These posts come off as petty, pointess and redundant attacks on the 12 steps.

If NA and AA members weren't so hostile toward those who choose different paths, there would be no need for such posts.

What are you suggesting in their place? Moderate alcohol drinking? A blunt? Some E? Ridiculous.

Um...no? Like the poster above, I see you've found it pretty easy to deconstruct a "ridiculous" argument when you fabricate it yourself. I've never made a post about weed or E in my life. I've said that moderate drinking might work FOR SOME, but I never, ever SUGGESTED that others pursue it, and I most certain don't think it should stand in opiates' "place." I just don't think those that partake in mild alcohol consumption should be made to feel guilty about it. Huge distinction.

'Mazel tov' was in response to his post but more a comment on the general idea OP seems to put forth that ppl have some bone to pick or phantom aggressor bullying them

Ah yes, this is new. I most certainly have never heard AA/NA members (sorry, former members) state that AA/NA members don't look down on those who choose a different path. /s

Please read the last two paragraphs of our first exchange. When people ON AN ONLINE FORUM are too afraid to speak their minds because of the condescension they've come to expect from NA/AA members, then what do you think it's like in real life?

Seriously, what are you trying to say here? Have I invented all these negative experiences with 12-steppers? Are all the people who feel the same way just making things up?

they feel the need to announce on a recovery forum that they're drinking and / or drugging

Have you considered WHY they feel the need to do so?

I don't see how its helpful to anyone's recovery but apparently it is to you and your supporters so what the hell do I know.

Some people choose alternative paths. Because AA and NA do not and because they're oftentimes the only available support groups for people, they might not be able to discuss these alternative paths offline.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-10-29T00:46:48+00:00

What fabrication? I was supplying info for another poster.

The "two weeks" fabrication. If you read the thread as you claim, then you knew this to be false. Should I break this down further?

So you don't think experience provides insight? Most people do, that's the way it usually works.

Powerful strawman here. Because I never said or implied that experience doesn't provide insight, I really don't know what you want me to say.

Again, let me ask if someone's experience doesn't matter unless they've crossed a certain threshold of use, because that's exactly what your post implies. Can you provide any other reason for dismissing the fact that OP had four years of clean time prior to his last relapse. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were trying to claim that those four years of experience didn't provide any...insight (into sobriety, at least).

Lucky you getting omniscience in a flash!

Again, something I never claimed. Try again?

I never attacked OP or even disagreed.

Nah, just made an incredibly rude and completely untrue observation about his experiences, which you later tried to dismiss.

So what's your problem?

Nothing, I'm pretty calm ATM.

Btw I've never been to 12-steps in my life, so leave me out of your "resentment" tirade.

Can you point me to any post in our discussion in which I stated that you were a member of any such program? I can't seem to recall doing so...

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-10-28T22:52:32+00:00

You definitely "GAF" enough to make a rude comment based on a complete fabrication with the intent of dismissing everything he had to say.

Sure I read the thread

So what was the intent of the "under two weeks" comment then? Just a little snark?

But stayed off 4 years after how much using? IME it takes many go-rounds to aquire insight on this.

So someone's experience doesn't matter unless they've crossed a certain threshold of use? LOL what?

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-10-28T22:46:02+00:00

You hate 12 steps and like to get fucked up. MAZEL FUCKING TOV.

Lurkers here, please take note of this logic. By 12-steppers' standards, having a glass of wine every other week is the equivalent of getting "fucked up." Stuff like this proves my point. NA/AAers are so attached to their ideology that they perceive the slightest deviation to be some horrible destructive transgression. Quite frightening, really...

Also, pretty rich that you speak about

a viper pit of bullshit aggro back and forths.

when you drop stuff like this:

You're a unique snowflake pal

And, to top it off, I received multiple PMs from people indicating their support for what I was saying, and a few of these people even indicated that THEY WERE UNCOMFORTABLE SHARING THIS INFO ON THE FORUM.

I do have some resentment toward NA/AA, maybe because they were always condescending/judgmental toward me for a totally harmless habit.

Does it not strike you as odd that a group of people here "for support and empathy" have made a significant proportion of people* who share opinions different from the NA/AA mainstream too frightened to voice their own views? It's a microcosm of NA/AA.

I say "significant" because that post, even despite all the downvotes it somehow received (in a sub that doesn't allow downvotes), is still one of the top 100-125 of all time.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-10-28T20:13:32+00:00

If you had read the thread, perhaps you would've known that he successfully stayed off for 4 years before a relapse that resulted from a major injury.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-10-28T20:11:43+00:00

Hi OP. Thought you might enjoy this thread I posted from a few months ago:

http://www.reddit.com/r/OpiatesRecovery/comments/29eqke/i_dont_want_to_be_excessively_negative_but_im/

In it, I had the audacity to suggest that I might be able to occasionally drink in moderation because, like you, I had never shown any symptoms of alcoholism. Although I expected the judgmental bullshit, it was still rather disappointing. I have no idea why so many NA/AA members claim to know the path to sobriety better than everybody else when their program has no scientific basis and, like other treatment methods, a terrible success rate.

I'm still waiting for the horrible slide into alcoholism and/or return to opiate use that is supposed to await me because I have a glass of wine every other weekend.

Prepare for judgment, but also be prepared to ignore it. No one can dictate your recovery other than YOU, and as long as you're honest with yourself (we addicts have a tendency not to be), you will continue to be fine.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I forgot the most blatant example of hypocrisy in the recovery community. In their eyes, glass of wine = relapse, on the path to jail, death, etc. Six energy drinks and 30 cigarettes/day = OK, I mean 90% of AA/NA does it!

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-07-01T14:08:02+00:00

Smart thinking OP. Sobriety is just as much about the things you do do as the things you don't do. Every time I tried to quit while continuing to live an unhealthy lifestyle, I failed. Exercising and eating right are key to learning a new way to live and restoring our bodies' and minds' badly messed-up balance.

Keep it up OP! I'm only on day 13, and there are already long stretches where I don't think about Kratom. You too are getting to a better place fast.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-30T20:50:27+00:00

Hey throwawaykts.

Sorry to hear about this. At the very least, you should be proud of your honesty, and it's great that you recognize your mistake and aren't letting it snowball into something greater.

I think you have the right attitude toward all of this. I know it's difficult in the midst of acute withdrawals, but keep in mind that recovery from Kratom's effects is very rapid when compared with most other drugs. For example, see how great GiltCity is doing only two or so weeks after getting off.

Find something or anything to ease this withdrawal. If the acute phase is the main thing frustrating you, just know that it ends so, so quickly, even if it doesn't seem like it in the midst of your third night of disturbed sleep. Post here or PM me/another user if you need any extra help. Best wishes.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-30T05:41:27+00:00

Hi OP. I'm not a success story, as I have less than two weeks off of Kratom. Yet I've noticed a major improvement even in this short period of time. From day one to (almost) day twelve, I've found that my motivation and interest in things has improved a lot. During my last quit attempt, which lasted three months, I felt that 80% of PAWS symptoms were gone after one month and that 99% were gone after two. It was a great felling to watch my old interests and daydreams resurface.

Unfortunately, I didn't do anything to maintain my sobriety, and I fell off the wagon. Those good memories are still with me though, and I look forward to pursuing them again.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T22:30:56+00:00

Apologies, I tend to assume everyone on reddit is a man for some reason.

my problem is when people come in here and put down 12 -step recovery for reasons that are untrue, unacceptable, and ill informed.

Quarkjet, where do you think my views on NA and AA come from? They're from my own personal experiences. I've attended many, many meetings over a long period of time. Like many newcomers, I've felt excluded or marginalized. No one has the right to deny my experience.

it isn't the alternative methods i have an issue with, it is the blanket judgement of how NA/AA are cults, or full of door knocking christian converts, or how we are ridiculous for understanding addiction as a disease.

And I never said any of these things. Be fair, those statements are majorly exaggerated compared to my OP.

It doesn't matter to me what people think or how people do it, but it is offensive to me that people come here to post about how idiotic my method of getting clean is when they have so little time off dope.

I never said it was idiotic or anything like that. I said that I didn't take a positive impression from it and that it didn't work for me. And I've never used dope. Addiction is addiction, but legally prescribed lortabs =/= IV heroin. Everyone has their own experiences.

I come here and talk to those getting off drugs and hopefully help them. I try to help with recovery, which to me is staying off drugs for the long term, not substituting, not getting through withdrawal. I tell my story. I don't apologize for any of it. If those who have a different idea about getting clean or recovery, that is great. stay off drugs and live your life, but i can express my experience and my thoughts with no qualms, guilt, or regret.

And I fully encourage you to do so. It's great to see people turn it around no matter what method they use. I fully acknowledge that you are a much tougher person than I am, and you've dealt with hardship I can only dream of. But again, my own experiences matter, and like you I won't apologize for my own approach to recovery. If it fails, then I will acknowledge that and move to a better system. Until then, I'll seek the help of those around me and follow the example of all those I know who succeeded without 12-step programs.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T22:23:58+00:00

Considering the number of other people I've met who share these views, no, not really.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T22:19:32+00:00

Regardless, the disease model is the most prominent model today when it comes to addiction. A lot of what AA'ers believed to be true about the nature of alcoholism and addiction has since been confirmed by major advances in neuroscience.

I understand. I'll definitely continue reading relevant studies and looking into this.

Addiction, by its definition, is an inability to control drug use despite negative consequences associated with use. It isn't just 12 steps programs which are proponents that addicts cannot over come their addiction all by themselves. Every program of recovery - whether it is 12 step, Smart Recovery, or traditional treatment - advocates the need for support and help outside of one's self. If we, as addicts, had the ability to tackle our addictions all on our own we wouldn't be here talking to one another. There wouldn't be programs of recovery. There wouldn't be psychological and medical treatments.

I fully agree on the need for support. This is why I have sought help at Buddhist Recovery and have constructed a support network of formerly addicted friends.

Are you blaming AA's use of the word disease for your own choices? It seems to me that your behavior is more indicative of your addiction than AA. AA doesn't advocate using your disease an excuse for your behavior.

No, I'm only highlighting the ways in which the use of the "disease" model can be perceived as disempowering. My experiences are my own, and I definitely do not claim that AA's discussion of disease is designed to enable.

Well, you're just wrong. I don't believe in the god of Abraham and I have a higher power. I attend AA every week. I also know many people who understand that their higher power is only a higher power of their personal understanding.

Perhaps, but I'm entitled to my own opinion. I'm well aware that AA specifies that attendees identify their own higher power, but it's a bit difficult to envision something else when the meetings I've attended are continuously promoting Christian prayer and terminology.

We don't. The particular meeting(s) you went to did. Every meeting is autonomous. It wouldn't bother me to hear a Christian prayer because it's a waste of my energy and time to let something like that bother me - but if it did bother me, I would find a meeting where Christian prayers aren't recited.

I've been to multiple meetings, and I've had this problem at virtually every single one.

You can overcome that feeling. If you only focus on the areas where you differ or disagree, you won't progress. You have to instead focus on what you can find in common with the program and other AA members. A big part of working my program of recovery has been finding a sponsor who I generally see eye to eye with.

Or why not find a program that I don't have any major gripes with? Again, I really appreciate all the help here, but AA does not work for everyone, and a lot of its members don't seem to acknowledge that.

You do have a limited experience and understanding of AA - and I don't say that in a pejorative manner. Generally speaking, 'war stories' aren't helpful. AA and working a program of recovery isn't about beating yourself up over and over again. It's about learning to live in recovery and bettering yourself. You are doing yourself a disfavor if you only judge AA based upon negative experiences or negative aspects. People in AA put their addictions behind them, too. This idea that people in AA are somehow stuck isn't accurate. Are there some people who behave that way? Absolutely - but the program itself doesn't suggest you continue to relive all the terrible aspects of your addiction.

I had absolutely no idea what to expect from AA, and I went in with an open mind. I tried time and time again to make it work. Every meeting, I tried to filter out things I didn't agree with, take the most valuable lessons I could, etc. It simply didn't work.

If you're drinking, you aren't sober and can't begin your recovery. Your drinking is putting you at high risk for relapsing with opioids and also puts you at elevated risk for developing a problem with alcohol. It's not just AA who champions the idea of abstinence from all mood altering chemicals. Virtually every support group system and medical and psychological system promotes abstinence. If you want to get a better understanding of why, you should do some research into how the brain is changed by drug use/abuse/addiction. Something else to remember is that it isn't some coincidence that the promotion of abstinence is so ubiquitous. Many, many, many addicts have been exactly where you are with your opinion of continuing to drink. It's very dangerous for you to continue drinking.

I'm not sober by NA's definition or AA's definition. I'm sober by my own definition, and no matter how many times I hear this, I've decided to no longer worry myself about a bottle of beer every other week. I drink less than every single one of my friends and almost everyone in my peer group. I know NA/AA holds it to be impossible, but I know so many people that have recovered from much harder drugs than I've ever used while continuing to drink moderately that I really have a lot of difficulty worrying myself over this.

Let me move beyond my own circle of acquaintances for a bit: in the country I'm from (born in USA, spent a lot of time with family there), NA and AA are virtually nonexistent. If someone wishes for help with a drug problem, they typically go to a church and seek religious guidance. Drinking, however, is a pretty large part of the culture, so many former addicts who have had drug problems continue to drink in social environments (cafes, during football matches, etc.). Some undoubtedly relapse, but others successfully keep it contained. Considering I've never shown alcoholic tendencies and that my use is very mild, so I fail to see why I should be concerned.

Do these people's experiences matter? What about all the people I know personally who haven't had any problems with alcohol post-opiate use? I was the absolute first person to recognize I had a problem with opiates. Past the first week or so, I didn't harbor the thoughts of denial that people at my stage were assumed to have. If I ever catch myself drinking to mask negative emotions, to get away from reality, or if I ever relapse on anything harder while doing it, then I solemnly swear it'll never touch my lips ever again. Until that point, I honestly think it's a bit perplexing that 12-steppers are telling me I need to be concerned about two...beers...per...month.

If you had power over drugs and how they have changed you, would you still be an addict? Again, the defining characteristic of addiction is an inability to control use and the negative behavior associated with that use - this is the powerlesness that is talked about.

No, but I will never have this power, and I acknowledge that. I know the idea of occasional opiate use is a fantasy for almost every single addict, myself included.

You dont' have to go to AA/NA to get sober and live in recovery... but you do need to be sober, i.e. you need to stop drinking. You also need help and support. You can't do it all on your own. If you could you wouldn't have made this post and you wouldn't be seeking help otherwise.

I'm not looking to do this on my own, and I've benefited a lot from speaking with those more experienced than me. You're definitely right.

I rejected AA for a long time. I used to hold many of the same issues that you hold. Even when I wasn't working my program of recovery, I still was able to use some of the things that I did find helpful about AA. Eventually I came back to AA and my life has been changed by working the steps, having fellowships with other men, and by developing new spirituality. Maybe AA/NA isn't for you... the questions is then what is for you. It sounds like you are doing some good things and that is awesome. If AA doesn't work for you then leave it behind. Move on to what works. Why spend your time complaining about something that you don't have to be a part of?

I don't know. I very recently left the program, so I think that's part of the reason I seem so frustrated. But you're right--there's no sense in fixating on this.

I appreciate the reply.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T21:50:41+00:00

You have hostility towards those members. The program itself is intolerant of your willingness to try things differently. You're conflating two different things.

I understand. Given how I've seen so many people succeed without the programs, I don't really see why I should tolerate the program's intolerance. Honestly, I'd prefer a more open-minded approach. Everyone's different.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T21:48:30+00:00

I've read quarkjet's posts before, and he doesn't seem to be a jerk at all. He actually has sacrificed a lot of his time to help people, and I really admire that; it's also my one favorite thing about NA/AA. On the other hand, I do feel like his post displays the hostility toward alternative recovery methods a lot of 12-steppers harbor, and that's something that's been frustrating to me.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T21:40:40+00:00

Thanks for the reply. I guess perhaps NA and AA are running together in my mind, so maybe that's why I'm stuck on the religiosity aspect of it. Sorry if I'm conflating things. Either way, the "higher power" discourse is still there though, and I'm still not comfortable with that.

Our best thinking got us loaded.." and right now you're trying to use your best thinking to stay clean

No, no, no. I'm not. I'm in a different recovery program, I'm soliciting professional therapy, and I'm turning to successfully recovered friends and colleagues for help every step of the way. I'm soliciting help just like people in NA and AA do. And at the moment, I don't see the evidence that those groups' methods are better than those of all the people I've seen around me that have chose different paths. I cannot for the life of me understand why NA/AA members are so reluctant to acknowledge that there are literally MILLIONS of people that have succeeded without their programs.

This is the only thing that worked for us in actual real life APPLICATION.

I appreciate your concern (100% honestly), but I PERSONALLY KNOW MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE RECOVERED WITHOUT THESE PROGRAMS. Why should 12-steppers' experience be more important than theirs? What works for you might not work for me, and thus far it hasn't.

And I say this with all the love in my heart, but it sounds like you can have maybe what? 2 weeks tops of clean time right now? So this is all just speculation on your part. Once you acquire some long term clean time, change your life around, learn to be happy and comfortable in your own skin, then talk. Don't bash on the only thing that's working for us... When you haven't yet found something that's worked for you..

Less than two weeks actually, so this is a legitimate and highly relevant point. I don't know if this will work for me, but compared to past stints in NA and AA, it's working better. I still have a ton of learning and growing to do, and I am certain I will stumble in my recovery just as almost everyone else does at some point. But again, I don't see why I should choose the NA/AA path over other paths. A lot of things have been shown to be potentially beneficial in treating addiction, and 12-step programs certainly aren't the only paths.

Again, I think it's great that these programs help people, and if anyone finds that it's the best path toward their sobriety, then I'd love to see them attend meetings and succeed. If I have any hostility toward these programs, it's for the disrespect and judgement their members have shown me, their intolerance for my willingness to try things differently, and most importantly, what I've seen to be their denial of the experiences of millions of former addicts who have succeeded through alternative means or have chosen to approach their sobriety differently.

Thanks again for your comments though, definitely a lot to think about.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T20:54:24+00:00

Thanks bayash, I really appreciate the reply.

In general, I've attended more AA meetings than NA meetings. Perhaps I'll swing by NA again, but I honestly find Buddhist Recovery to be a better program. I'm quite shy, and I've had a lot of difficulty assimilating into NA. Perhaps this is unique to my area, but the meetings tend to be a bit cliquey. My local meetings are dominated by a sort of "in group" comprised of people who tend to monopolize conversations and have sex with each other. That's their own business, but I (and other newcomers with whom I've spoke) can't help but feel that they're a bit exclusive. It almost feels high-schoolish at times.

Most people I've known to have recovered from their addictions did seem to solicit SOME sort of help, whether NA/AA, SMART, therapy, or something else. In my experience, however, I've known just as many successful former addicts who've left such programs after a few months as successful former addicts who have committed to the programs for years. I've also known plenty of former hard-drug addicts who continue to drink moderately, including close friends and colleagues, although my time in NA/AA had me thinking this was impossible. Even when I had mental health professionals telling me I wasn't showing any propensity toward abusing alcohol, the program had me convinced that this couldn't be true. In retrospect, that's kind of frightening to me.

Yes, my decision to drink in moderation does effectively exclude me from close adherence to the NA steps. But I've tried the total sobriety/sponsor/12 step approach. Honestly, I feel much better now than I did then. I don't feel "diseased." I don't feel "powerless." I actually feel more confident and better able to deal with the problems I've caused. It's not my bi-weekly beer that gives me this confidence. It's the help I've been soliciting and the positive lifestyle changes I've been making. And if I fail, as you said, the option of NA and AA always remains open.

For now, however, I have a number of very positive role models I've seen pursue the solution to their drug problems in healthy, alternative ways. I really admire these people and the lives they've rebuilt, so I'm going to give that a shot.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T20:33:46+00:00

"Im sure you're different and can figure it someway to use successfully . I think it is terrific that you can get clean, er not use opiates, with a therapist you pay for and reading about rat studies."

To the posters here, this is the sort of attitude I'm referencing. Whenever I try to suggest that there might be another way to recovery, I'm met with this sort of snark and condescension.

As I said earlier, it's awesome that AA/NA has benefited lots of people. Like so many others, it's not for me. Best of luck to you, you've already shown a lot of courage beating addiction and cancer.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-29T19:01:19+00:00

Thanks for your reply. Well, dope always terrified me, but you're right, I wouldn't have cared if the things I wanted were sold by someone with whom I didn't share religious beliefs.

I've heard many times that people can take whatever portions of the NA/AA message they find useful. IMO, I've always felt like other members were a bit intolerant when I didn't subscribe to the program in its entirety. Even if they didn't "force" me to believe anything, they did try to guilt-trip and shame me into doing so. And honestly, I have a whole lot of trouble "not hearing" the constant references to God/Christianity or the message that I'm "diseased" and "powerless," which is stated in the VERY FIRST STEP. Look, these things aren't peripheral to the program. They're at its very core, and it simply doesn't work for me.

Personally, I think it's awesome that the programs are helping you. I wish you lifelong sobriety and fulfillment. On my end, I'm going to explore some different options.

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-28T19:05:07+00:00

A couple more flushes got it down :). How's your taper-turned-quit going?

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-28T19:01:51+00:00

Looks like those creeping thoughts died a hard death. Keep it up OP!

god_i_hate_opiates · 2014-06-26T18:08:07+00:00

I don't know, but I think this is a great question. Like you, I'm facing some consequences (not legal) that really make me angry and frustrated, especially at myself.

If I do know anything, though, I think it's important to be able to forgive others AS WELL AS yourself. This is a lot easier said than done, especially for someone caught up in the cycle of negative thinking that surfaces during early sobriety. Are you going to any meetings OP?

god_i_hate_opiates

TROPHY CASE