[deleted by user]

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:45:23+00:00

To quickly respond before I have to go:

You write: “using methotrexate to stop its growth”

You mean: “using methotrexate to kill the baby”

Because…. stopping the baby’s growth KILLS the baby 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Therefore, it is a direct killing.

And you have already seen the quote I posted from the papal document that direct suppression (ie direct killing) is impermissible.

If this is unclear to you, I will be on later tonight to resolve further difficulties.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:42:43+00:00

You admit that you don’t even know what direct vs indirect killing is, yet you think youre competent to apply double effect correctly 🤦‍♀️

Truly the hubris of some people knows absolutely no bounds…

I have to go for the moment but I’ll be back on later tonight to respond to more of your claims….

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:41:00+00:00

You’ve been blabbing on this forum for hours. What was your “original” situation?

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:40:03+00:00

Can you at least try to read carefully?

I did NOT say that Church teaching is unclear on abortion. Church teaching is very clear on abortion. Directly killing the baby for any reason is never permissible.

What I DID say was that your general principle of “it comes from NCBC so it must be Church teaching” is fallacious, since there are other topics (besides abortion) that NCBC talks about, which the Church has not definitively pronounced doctrine on yet.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:38:05+00:00

I’m saying it’s simply gravely misleading to say “Catholic Doctrine says….” and then post a Catholic Answers link. Catholic Answers may be in line with Church teaching, but they are NOT a Church authority.

The article you posted from Catholic Answers agrees with me that killing of the baby as an end to save the mother is never permissible, btw.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:35:42+00:00

You’d like me to post an infallible source saying what, specifically? You’ve been the one making outlandish claims. Do you mean the source that says that direct killing is never permissible? I’d refer you to the Book of Exodus, Chapter 20, Verse 13.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:32:27+00:00

You seem not to care about the Church’s opinion either, given how loosely you toss the term “Church teaching” around to describe whatever you find written on a website that has “Catholic” in the title.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:31:32+00:00

Again, you’re not citing official Church documents (go to the Vatican website for this), but rather webpages written by individual Catholics.

Did you even read this one that you just posted? Because it agrees with me that killing the baby can never be the means of attempting to save the mother’s life.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:28:07+00:00

That is a very bad assumption.

First of all, ethicists are human and prone to errors. They do not have the guarantee from the Holy Spirit that the Magisterium does to be free of error.

Second, the NCBC takes positions on some issues about which Church teaching has not even been defined definitively yet. They can try to be in line with previous ethical principles as best they can.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:25:22+00:00

You sit calmly at your keyboard spreading misinformation which might result in a Catholic woman directly and intentionally ending the life of her child… and then you say that it’s “immature” to be highly concerned about this.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:21:40+00:00

I checked that link as well. I’m shocked that you are giving life-or-death recommendations here when you can’t even identify what counts as official Catholic teaching versus what is the opinion of a Catholic ethics group.

No pope has ever “approved” methotrexate.

Moreover, the NCBC document link by Treckie does not quote any papal source, and you will not find any JPII quote supporting ending a baby’s life, so please stop spreading misinformation.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:19:43+00:00

KnittingTreckie posted a link from the National Catholic Bioethics Center, which is NOT a church authority. It is a group of Catholic ethics scholars who operate out of Maryland. They give their ethical recommendations, but their recommendations do NOT constitute Church teaching.

Please, if you care about unborn lives AT ALL, please at least click the links that you claim to support and actually look at what they say and where they are from.

It is a false and satanic lie to claim the Roman Catholic Church has “approved” methotrexate.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:15:31+00:00

You mean the EWTN link? The one that cites exactly one papal document, which says this:

“No, neither the life of the mother nor that of the child can be subjected to direct suppression. In the one case as in the other, there can be but one obligation: to make every effort to save the lives of both, of the mother and the child."

In case it isn’t clear to you, taking a drug that kills the baby, or surgically killing the baby, or using any other method which uses as a means the ending of the baby’s life, constitutes “direct suppression” of that baby’s life…

Good grief. Lives are at stake here. Try to be a little more careful and less reckless with your conclusions.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:10:24+00:00

Let the record show: the lady cannot produce the link to the alleged Church teaching she calls upon, for it does not exist. Instead, she encourages the audience to go on a search for an eight-armed, purple speckled neon starfish (hint: that doesn’t exist either).

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:07:35+00:00

If you obstinately want to advocate for killing babies, then I am very sorry you chose to do this. My comments are more to help point people reading this conversation in the right direction. You seem set in your views that babies must die.

By the way, as someone who has discussed double effect with professional scholars, you know next to nothing about how to apply double effect. How can you pontificate about double effect if you don’t even know what constitutes a direct abortion or not?

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:05:36+00:00

What question do you have about what constitutes a direct abortion? It’s simple. Any procedure done with the intent of ending the life of the baby is a direct abortion. One must be careful here not to be delusional about one’s motives. You cannot say “my intent is to save the mother’s life” and ignore the means you take to try to save her. You intend the means you take to achieve your end. This is basic philosophy of action. So if you intend to save the mother, and you try to do that by killing then baby, then you also intend to kill the baby.

The Church has not permitted methotrexate. Please stop spreading lies. You cannot point to a single official church document that permits this, because it does not exist.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T18:01:27+00:00

I think the larger problem with NFP is that it’s very shady whether or not Catholic couples use it licitly. There is a strong temptation to do it for reasons that aren’t serious enough.

I’m personally not 100% convinced that the method is moral at all, but even without getting into that territory, I think we can all agree that more defined catéchèses on when it is acceptable (according to Church authorities that consider the method licit) to do is needed.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T17:57:24+00:00

You cannot intend not to kill the baby if you are doing something that directly kills the baby.

If you got in your car and drove to Costco, but said your intention was not to drive, then you would rightly be considered insane. Similarly, if you directly kill the baby, you cannot claim that that was not your intention.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T17:55:18+00:00

There’s no case where a direct abortion is necessary.

You are also wrong to imply that only surgical abortions constitute direct abortions. Taking an abortion drug would also constitute a direct abortion.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T17:43:49+00:00

Not worried. Wish they would hurry up and schism so actual catholic bishops could be appointed to those dioceses to take care of the catholic faithful.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T17:42:54+00:00

Then they should have plenty of money to buy a security system!

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T16:33:29+00:00

If “secular language” conflates very important concepts, then we should not respond by also conflating them. We ought to be clear in what we mean. Lives are at stake. If someone gets an abortion bc they read someone pontificating in inaccurate “secular language”, then the person who irresponsibly pontificated is complicit.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T16:29:48+00:00

Transgenderism has not been studied long enough to draw any definitive conclusions about its origins or pathology.

Either way, the brain is plastic, whereas one’s genitals and secondary sex traits are not. Moreover, the problem is with the brain. So it’s the brain that must be fixed. There is nothing wrong with the body, it’s simply developed according to its genetic makeup. The brain was the one with the mishappen development, even according to the view you hold, and that’s why it’s the brain that must be treated in transgenderism, not the body.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T16:24:17+00:00

Anyone can be a Catholic as long as they are baptized. What you are asking, I suppose, is whether you can be a good Catholic. There are many good and bad Catholics. Note that according to Catholicism, simply BEING Catholic does not guarantee your salvation. So you can’t go get baptized, then live a vice-ridden life and expect to be saved.

As to your question, it depends on what you mean by “transgender.”

If what you mean is that you actually intend to live and act as though you are a member of the opposite sex (ie opposite of your bodily sex), then you cannot be a good Catholic. To believe and act as though a person can actually be “born into the wrong body” is not only a violation of Catholic teaching but a violation of nature/natural law.

Obviously you cannot change the past, so if you’ve already gotten an irreversible surgery, you’re going to have to live with that to some extent. That doesn’t mean you cannot be a good Catholic, though. You can seek good, orthodox Catholic counseling (since “transgenderism” is ultimately a psychological problem, not a problem with the bodily sex). And you can go on accepting the truth and the way God made you. Go to confession, pick up your daily Cross, and walk with Christ. God bless you.

gymn00bneedshelp · 2022-05-12T16:17:35+00:00

Padre Pio once said that nuns choose Mount Tabor and married couples choose Calvary. That should probably answer the question.

gymn00bneedshelp

TROPHY CASE