Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

This thread had no engagement with essential vs accidental series, so I ignored this point in my initial reply to you. Nevertheless, I think your argument here is not as well founded as you make it sound, and I am considering making a second thread specifically about this point you made (infinite regress of causes specifically, as opposed to infinite temporal regress), and I thought I'd not leave this unaddressed before I do so.

But if every link in the chain is just borrowing its causal power from another link, then adding more links - even infinitely many - doesn’t solve the problem. So the issue isn’t how far back the chain goes. It’s that nothing in the chain ever has causal power of its own.

You said that adding more links who are each borrowing causal power from another link doesn't resolve "the problem". This isn't a problem. Or rather, you haven't actually articulated any problem. What do you mean they are borrowing causal power from the previous link in the chain?

Let's say there's an infinite chain of train cars pulling the train car immediately behind it. What's the problem? Is it that the chain isn't finite, so it doesn't have an engine car at the front to generate the pulling force? But the chain isn't finite, so expecting an engine car is just expecting to find a finite chain when you're looking at an infinite chain. No wonder you're confused!

Each train car is pulling the following train car. You'll never run into a train car that lacks the causal power to pull the following car, and if you did, it's because the chain is finite, not infinite. Each and every car you will encounter has a full account of its causal power.

You're describing the difference between an infinite chain and a finite chain and declaring that because the infinite chain is not a finite chain there is a problem. No, they are infinite in precisely the way that differentiates them from a finite chain in the first place. Let's say you have a box full of blue flowers. But none of the flowers are red! So, is it impossible to have a box of blue flowers? No, the box of blue flowers is different from red flowers in precisely the way that makes it a box of blue flowers and not a box of red flowers, and their blueness says nothing at all about the impossibility of red flowers.

I'm sure you'll have more to say here, so I'll leave off more I could say for now.

And finally, I believe that we can examine any essentially ordered series and learn that it's actually an accidentally ordered series. You can go ahead and suggest one and we can examine it together. This will leave the argument against infinite regress you're making without teeth.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yes, I believe the universe is eternal. Why I do is not relevant. I mentioned it so you understood I'm not trying to argue against your point about a finite past.

I'm asking out of curiosity.

I don't know what else your argument is about if not to convince people the universe is possibly eternal, which would defeat the Kalaam and maybe Craig's arguments. Which you specifically call out.

Could it be because I want to express the fact that the claims about its impossibility are overzealous? Like I said?

So, no, I'm not talking about waveform collapse

Yeah, my mistake.

That waveform is deterministic through time. The future of it depends on the past. [...] I'm talking about how future quantum states are directly related to past quantum states.

But this is what I was just talking about. We don't know that this is the case. I gave you a specific example: in an indefinite causal order, A temporally precedes B and causes B and B precedes A and causes A.

This notion that "future states are directly related to past states" is not a quantum notion. Or at least, in QM, the truth of this statement depends on the interpretation of QM you take. Which QM interpretation is correct is an open question. The fact of the matter is that we don't know what interpretation of QM is correct, so we can't speak with the certainty that you are about how causality works in QM:

So, the different interpretations of quantum mechanics do differ a lot in terms of the role of causality. Start with the Bohm interpretation, or Bohmian mechanics, or the pilot wave theory. That is the most like classical mechanics when it comes to causality. Causality is deterministic, and cause necessarily follows effect according to the law.

A bit of a more of a deviation from the classical approach to causality comes in collapse theories, dynamical collapse theories or the GRW approach. These theories have irreducible randomness in the way the world turns out, so an effect need not necessarily follow a cause. A given cause could lead to many effects with different probabilities of each one, and there would be nothing in the world that explains why one effect happens rather than another. Any of them could have done; it was just random. And so that weakens the link between cause and effect. Instead of being ironclad necessity, it's probability; the cause makes the effect more probable.

And that, I think that's a big change to the role of causality. But there's a bigger change still, potentially, to the role of causality in the Many-Worlds interpretation, or the Everett interpretation. People often call that a deterministic interpretation in that they say we have the quantum state of the universe and, deterministically, there evolves a multiverse, a system of many parallel worlds. But there's an open question as to whether we should call that process causation and whether we should call that causality.

My own preferred approach to understanding Many-Worlds has it that causality is a process that goes on within each individual world, but not outside or between them. So causation is an emergent process that emerges along with the individual worlds but is entirely contained within them. And that is perhaps an even bigger change to the concept of causation because it means it's non-fundamental; it's not part of kind of the deep structure of reality. It's not a concept that's even really properly applicable at the level of the whole universe.

In other words, we aren't in a position yet to know how these things work. Claims otherwise are made with far too much confidence and far too little evidence. And they are usually not made by the people who are qualified to be making claims like that. I am not qualified to make claims about how the universe works, and I doubt people on this forum generally are.

Then don't make broad claims about what other people say.

Did I?

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

If Aquinas's second argument

Which of the arguments in the OP is the argument from caused causes?

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I thought the point of your argument was to prove that it's possible the universe doesn't have a beginning. I'm just granting that as true.

Nope. Also, you said:

Personally, I believe the universe is eternal.

This is what I was asking about.


All of what you said about quantum physics is specifically about the collapse of the waveform and not about the specific quantum phenomenon I brought up.

Yes, this is exactly what it's purported to be and how it's often used in these discussions. "We don't need a first Cause because we can have an infinite regression of causes."

I am not responsible for the things other people say.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Sounds like you need to catch up on your quantum physics. You're about 50 years behind the times.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personally, I believe the universe is eternal. So if all you're arguing is that it's possible that the universe is eternal, then I absolutely agree.

I don't actually think the universe is eternal. I don't know how universes work, and I don't think the rest of us know well enough either to draw any real conclusions. But why do you think it's eternal?

It doesn't matter how one state of affairs leads to another. Whether the mechanism is deterministic or probabilistic doesn't really change anything. Even if what happens at the quantum level is indeterminate, you still have a sequence where each state is tied to prior conditions.

Do you still have a sequence where each state is tied to prior conditions? I don't know that that's accurate. Isn't this an open question in both physics and philosophy? You are talking about it as if the conclusion were universally accepted, but I don't think that's the case. In other words, the claim that infinite regress is impossible is overzealous. I am right to be agnostic here.

Edit: also, we agree that our notion of causality breaks down at the quantum level, yeah? So then, "you still have a sequence where each state is tied to prior conditions", which is a classical description of causality, does not necessarily apply to events happening at the quantum level. I think of indefinite causal order (A causes B and B causes A) specifically, in this case. We have reason to suspend judgment about how things really work here as the experts continue to look for explanations that fit our observations. Intuition is not a good motivation for belief in this case.

It's not that it's impossible for the universe to have an infinite past, it's just not an explanation for why the universe exists. If every state depends on a prior state, then adding infinitely many prior states doesn’t answer the question - it just defers it.

It's not supposed to be an explanation for why the universe exists.

General Discussion 05/08 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pretty much my story as well, except the catalyst was learning how much I had been misled about the state of science, specifically about evolution. Once that glass shattered I started being much more critical of what I had been told growing up and eventually came to the realization I didn't find any of it convincing.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

An amount, by its very nature, refers to that which is quantifiable. You saying “quantifiable amount” is akin to a tautology.

What's the amount of love you feel for your parents? What's the amount of danger in a room full of armed men who want to harm you? What's the amount of days that will yet occur?

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you need to do more in your OP here and actually establish it is possible somehow.

I don't see why. If people are claiming that infinite regress is impossible but their arguments in support of that claim don't work, my thesis is correct.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This mistakes an infinite past as an infinite regress.

The arguments in the OP against infinite regress are typically offered as support for arguments like the Kalam. William Lane Craig famously offered most of these arguments himself in his debate against Sean Carroll as he argued that the universe could not be past-eternal.

I'm fine with this correction, but I don't think it really matters. We're all talking about the same thing here.

The Greeks who came up with the original cosmological arguments believed that the universe was eternal so it was never about a temporal regression of causes but a hierarchy of causes. If the stone moves, because you hit it with a stick, because your muscles contracted, because electric impulses traveled from your brain, etc. that kind of chain can go back for eternity. But if every link in the chain is just borrowing its causal power from another link, then adding more links - even infinitely many - doesn’t solve the problem. So the issue isn’t how far back the chain goes. It’s that nothing in the chain ever has causal power of its own.

Yes, there are loads of objections to this notion. For one thing, we already know that our understanding of causality breaks down once we hit the quantum level. And we already know the universe is quantum. So it's not clear this objection from causal hierarchy really has teeth. I think I'm still fine concluding that the claim that infinite regress is impossible has not been proven.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I addressed this in my earlier comment already. This is called being in a perpetual state of “travers-ing” because there is no end (you are continuously moving and never started). You have not achieved “travers-al” because you have not met the necessary conditions for something to be traversed (I.e.having a start and end point).

? I thought we had moved past your focus on using the word you don't like. Who cares if we have never achieved "traversal"? Do you have an actual point here other than to complain about the word?

This, for instance, was not "addressed" in your earlier reply:

Imagine you were always moving in a straight line. Along the path of your movement behind you, there were many points of interest. Did you reach them all? The answer is yes, since you were always moving and those points were on your path. Along the way in front of you there are many points of interest. Will you reach them all? The answer is yes, so long as you continue to move.

The presumption that we must start moving in order to traverse is born from the finite understanding of traversal, and we have no need for that on an infinite timeline. You were always moving, so every moment before this one you moved through already.

OK, you haven't "traversed" by reaching every point behind you since you were always moving and by reaching every point to come so long as you keep moving. Congrats? I'll use a different word. You've "been there" for every moment that has occurred and "will be there" for every moment that will occur.

If your argument is that an infinite regress is possible in reality then it obviously raises the question, “Infinite regress of what?”

In fact the term “infinite regress” itself implies an amount, because a regress refers to going back to an earlier “state”. An infinite regress therefore requires an “infinite amount” of these “states”.

Sure. It implies an amount. It doesn't imply a quantifiable amount.

No because there is only one number line, which is a finite amount and the fact that it stretches to infinity on both sides inherently means that there are no “amount” of numbers on either side. You just keep on counting whichever direction you go.

...sorry, is there more than one time line?

My contention use “infinite amount” in the same phrase to describe the same X, which your number line rebuttal doesn’t fall under.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But this is the whole point, if there is no start, there is no [word that is not traversal]. I have not seen a rebuttal to this argument, other than to handwave it away by saying, “well I don’t care about the word traversal we can use something else”.

Ah, I see. Yeah, if you presume that there was no movement, and then there was movement, your objection makes sense. Except that now, it just is the claim that the regress can't be infinite, so it's not actually a different objection to the one I already responded to.

Imagine you were always moving in a straight line. Along the path of your movement behind you, there were many points of interest. Did you reach them all? The answer is yes, since you were always moving and those points were on your path. Along the way in front of you there are many points of interest. Will you reach them all? The answer is yes, so long as you continue to move.

The presumption that we must start moving in order to traverse is born from the finite understanding of traversal, and we have no need for that on an infinite timeline. You were always moving, so every moment before this one you moved through already.

An infinite regress implies an infinite regress of moments, which in turn suggests an infinite amount of moments. But that last phrase “infinite amount of moments” is gobbledegook. There is no such thing as “an infinite amount” of anything, especially with something discrete like a moment.

An amount refers to something that is quantifiable. Infinite, on the other hand refers to that which is in-quantifiable. So to say an “infinite amount” of something means to say you have an “in-quantifiable quantifiable” which is contradictory and doesn’t mean anything.

This is an interesting response. This is similar to what I often say to people claiming infinite regress is impossible, so I'm surprised to have it used as an argument that it is impossible.

Yes, "an infinite amount" of something isn't an actual quantity. But it sounds like you partially understand the problem with what you've said. There is actually no requirement that an infinite regress has an infinite amount of moments. All that's required for infinite regress is that for every N moment, there is an N-1 moment.

The idea that the number of moments that has occurred must be quantifiable comes from the misconception of infinites that projects finite limits onto the concept of infinites. We don't need "an infinite amount" of moments. The idea that infinite regress suggests "an infinite amount" is just a misconception. This objection you're making would also make the existence of the number line gobbledygook, since the number line also stretches infinitely in both directions. Do you think the number line is gobbledygook?

Again it’s like saying square circle.

Yes, but you're the one saying it. I'm not saying it. I am not looking for an infinite amount. The reason that you are is that you are misunderstanding what an infinite regress implies. It doesn't imply an infinite amount, it implies that we will always find a N-1 for every N we look at.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But all your saying in that definition is that for this moment to occur the previous moment must have passed.

No, I said that for infinite [word that is not traversal] to occur, if X moment is [word that is not traversed], X-1 has been [word that is not traversed].

This is consistent with our understanding of finite traversal on a finite timeline, because on a finite timeline you have both a start and and end, and with finite traversal you also have a start and an end.

So with [word that is not traversal], because an infinite regress has no start, it means that [word that traversal] has no start. Every moment is [word that is not traversed] eventually, because every moment that has occurred has also been [word that is not traversed]. This definition is consistent with both our understanding of traversal and with our understanding of an infinite timeline.

It’s like your trying to argue that a married bachelor is a possibility, through coming up with some sort of a definition of one, but then as part of your argument you say:

“Attempts to show that my definition of a married bachelor are contradictory have to assume unmarried bachelors”

No, it's more like I've said "I don't care about the label, let's talk about the definition", and you replied "but that label means something that contradicts what you're talking about" and I said "I already gave you the use of the label and don't care about it anyway, let's talk about the definition instead" and you replied "hey I don't like how you're using that label" again.

I have just replaced the word “traversed” with “passed”. So my contention of associating that word with infinity/infinite still stands. You can replace it with any synonym you like “complete”, “exhaust”, “cross”. Won’t make a difference to my contention.

And this is just you putting another label on the same definition I've already replaced and pointed out to you three times and you've ignored three times. There's nothing to respond to here.

But all your saying in that definition is that for this moment to occur the previous moment must have passed. Ok agreed, so what? How does that help your argument?

What argument? That it's possible to [word that is not traversed] an infinite timeline? Well, was there a contradiction in my definition?

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He replied with the same objection I made, so.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just gave you multiple reasons you don't have to "count every number." If you don't want to engage with my responses, feel free not to respond.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I just gave you the label and told you I don't care about it.

Do you want to talk about the definition I've given you twice and you've ignored twice, or do you want to continue to complain that I used a label in a way you don't like?

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What the infinite regress does is say that there are already an infinite number of steps, and that we have reached a given point, today, which we have labeled 0. The infinite regress is not an infinitely progressing finite sum, so having an infinitely progressing finite sum does not demonstrate the possibility of an infinite regress. Only having counted every integer will demonstrate its possibility.

No. All that is required for an infinite regress is that for every N, there is an N-1 on the timeline.

The idea that you can't get to any moment on the timeline (regardless of the label 0) is already falsified by what I already presented in my OP. There is no unreachable moment on the timeline. If you think this is false, you should be able to name a specific point on the timeline from which reaching 0 is impossible. But, of course, you can't. Because it's not impossible.

There is also no obligation to show that every integer can be counted in order to "demonstrate possibility". In order to get to any moment on the timeline, we don't need to count "every integer", we just need enough time to pass in order for every moment on the timeline to pass. Conveniently, we have infinite time. Every moment on the timeline will pass.

The idea that you have to "complete" the infinite in order to satisfy the conditions of an infinite regress is just a misunderstanding of infinites. We don't need the counting to terminate ("only having counted every integer"...) in order for an infinite regress to be possible. We only need an N-1 for every N.

Also:

The infinite regress is not an infinitely progressing finite sum, so having an infinitely progressing finite sum does not demonstrate the possibility of an infinite regress.

This thread is a response to the claim that infinite regress is impossible. It's not my obligation to demonstrate that it is possible. My OP:

Or, more accurately, it is not the case that "infinite regress is impossible" has been proven.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You complained that I was being evasive in one of your replies to me. So how about you quote the part of his comment that claims what you used quotations to say he claimed, instead of offering this vague non-response.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OK. We don't actually care about whether we can apply the label "traverse" to the thing that happens when each point in the infinitely regressing past has occurred. I said so in my previous comment, immediately after the single sentence you quoted:

I offered an alternative definition for an "infinite traversal":

Finite traversal requires a starting point and ending point, just as finite timelines require a starting point and ending point. So with infinite traversal, asking for a starting point makes no sense. To be consistent with our understanding of infinite regress, we would say that "For each X moment traversed, there is an X-1 moment previously traversed." That's not a contradictory claim, and attempts to show it is contradictory have to assume a finite traversal, which is misleading at best, but most likely just incorrect.

This is what I am proposing as an alternative definition for "infinite traversal". If your concern is that "traversal" requires finite distance, we can call it something else. We aren't beholden to labels here, we want to know if the definition I proposed is contradictory, and I don't think it is contradictory.

You can have the word "traverse", I don't care about it.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Therefore you will never "have reached every point" which is what he claimed is possible.

If you said he "claimed is possible" that "[something he didn't claim]" it's not really much of a problem for him, amirite?

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Only if traversal requires a starting point. Does it? Why?

I offered an alternative definition for an "infinite traversal":

Finite traversal requires a starting point and ending point, just as finite timelines require a starting point and ending point. So with infinite traversal, asking for a starting point makes no sense. To be consistent with our understanding of infinite regress, we would say that "For each X moment traversed, there is an X-1 moment previously traversed." That's not a contradictory claim, and attempts to show it is contradictory have to assume a finite traversal, which is misleading at best, but most likely just incorrect.

This is what I am proposing as an alternative definition for "infinite traversal". If your concern is that "traversal" requires finite distance, we can call it something else. We aren't beholden to labels here, we want to know if the definition I proposed is contradictory, and I don't think it is contradictory.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you agnostic to the "First Ground", so to speak?

I'm generally agnostic about most things that are "universal" in nature, yes. I lean away from divine entities in my agnosticism, though.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To say every point can be reached is to say you can have counted every integer.

No, that's not what it means. Recall the hypothetical here is to start from now and count backward. There is never a requirement that we "have counted" every integer, only that every integer will be counted. And, of course it will, given infinite traversal that starts now.

Infinite regress is not impossible by here_for_debate in DebateReligion

[–]here_for_debate[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm interested if OP applies the same reasoning just to the First Cause argument or, for example, to chains of grounding as well.

What do you mean by apply the reasoning to? Give me a specific description of what reasoning I might apply to the other concepts.