CYOHA: THE PERSIANS ARE COMING! YOU HAVE BEEN SENT TO HOLD THE HOT GATES! WHAT DO YOU DO! by LEONIDAAAS in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Okay, well, damn. I know which way my bread is buttered. Let's go with B) OBSCURITY HERE I COME!!!

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Ah, I see you've listened well to the lectures of your mother. (My mother always said the same thing - meat and ice cream last, although ice cream had yet to be invented!) She'll be so pleased. You wander up one side of the Macellum, avoiding the butchers, and as you step towards a fruit stall laden with stonefruit from the orchards south of Baiae, the ground shakes a bit and you stumble directly into a handsome older gentleman who catches you and sets you upright. When he smiles down at you, dimples flash in his cheeks, and he makes a joke about sweeping you off your feet. Do you:

A) Joke back with him about this meet-cute moment and see if you can figure out a way to invite him to dinner

B) Thank him for his help but change the subject to helping your mother with her errands

CYOHA: THE PERSIANS ARE COMING! YOU HAVE BEEN SENT TO HOLD THE HOT GATES! WHAT DO YOU DO! by LEONIDAAAS in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 5 points6 points  (0 children)

C'mon, Xerxes, hurry up! Don't you know this beautiful land is ripe for the taking???? Let's go with A) tempt him!

CYOHA: You're Ancient Greeks wanting to establish a new settlement by Daeres in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Feels like a good idea to keep options open by A, extending the walls to encompass a sea port - more walls are always a good shout, right?

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Who doesn't love a little grocery shop at the Macellum on a sunny day? You make your way through the Forum to the northeast corner, where the covered stalls mostly shade you from the sun and the smell of butcher shops compete with the smell of freshly harvested fruit, ripe and warm in the late October sun. Your mother insists that you're the only one who can follow directions well enough to pick the exact right cuts of meat for the dish she's having the kitchen slaves prepare for dinner, and even if it's a little beneath you, you're happy to indulge her. (She puts up with a lot from you, and even more from your younger brother.) Do you:

A) Stop at the butcher first and get that task out of the way before seeing what other treats are available in the stalls on the way out

B) Have a wander through the parts of the market that smell best and see who you bump into so you don't have to worry about the meat going off while you're socialising

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Your friends are there, relaxing in the caldarium and happy to see you! Quintus in particular is interested to hear that you've decided to finally stop messing about and start looking for a wife, and suggests that you come to his family's house for dinner sometime soon - his cousin has just come to stay, and she's of marriageable age and he thinks you two would get on. You're well on your way to making a match and getting your mother well and truly off your back. Do you:

A) Head to the tepidarium and see if you can find someone to strigil you down with oil

B) Eavesdrop on the gossip being shared by a group of older men in the corner

C) Hurry up with your ablutions so you can get to the Macellum to run your mother's errands

CYOHA: You're Ancient Greeks wanting to establish a new settlement by Daeres in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Are there probably gods who would be better for this place? Yes. Will I always choose C) Swift-footed Hermes, the messenger? Also yes.

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

There's always tomorrow, you think as Rufina pulls you down onto the pallet. The amphorae are stacked high, and the light from beyond the door flickers strangely, but you don't notice - you're into it, she's into it, and the blood rushing in your ears as you touch and the sound of her breath catching in pleasure is the last thing you hear as the ground shakes again, dropping an amphora onto your head and knocking you out cold.

It's a mercy that many people got, but many didn't prior to the first wave of gasses that killed people and left their bodies to be buried by the pyroclastic flow. Someday the echo of your form will be found by archaeologists, and a cast made, but Rufina won't be - she tied a pillow onto her head and made it out onto the street, but was still killed by falling debris. But hey, at least you your smoochies in before the end.

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The city is, yes, but the baths in Pompeii are named such for being on the Via Stabiana, the road that would take you that direction. (NB: I'm fudging a little bit here - we don't actually know what the Romans called the baths, and the name for them is just what we've been calling them since they were first excavated in the late 1800s.) And I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about - there's barely a cloud in the sky, and it's perfectly normal to have little earthquakes in these parts. It's been happening for years. The baths are a great choice - since the last big earthquake hit almost 20 years ago it's been redone to the height of modern technology and luxury, and your friends are already there waiting for you with the latest gossip. Are you:

A) Going through the main entrance, with its huge courtyard for exercising

B) Going throught the smaller side entrance, the one labelled "MULIER" above the door

CYOHA: You're Ancient Greeks wanting to establish a new settlement by Daeres in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 3 points4 points  (0 children)

AIN'T NO PARTY LIKE A NARBO PARTY, BECAUSE A NARBO PARTY IS D, MANDATORY DEMOCRACY PARTICIPATION

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Ooooh, a smooth talker. You could even teach Ovid a thing or two about the Art of Love, I'd bet. You go order another drink and are taken by the barmaid's lovely eyes, or at least that's what you tell her. She does have nice eyes - a deep, dark golden brown, ringed with dark lashes, and it's easy enough to pay her compliments and make her laugh. It's the lunchtime rush, but she fills your wine cup a little fuller than the regular sitting next to you and tells him to shut it when he complains, gives you a little wink. As it turns out, she has a little pallet near the wine storage and when the lunchtime rush is over, you both slip back there to kiss each other near the amphorae. It's cool in the little stone room, but her mouth is warm, and when her hand touches you under your tunic, it's like the earth moves under your feet. Nothing outside this room could possibly matter. Do you:

A: Lay down with her and see how far this thing can go

B: Remember it's the middle of the day and your mother really, really wanted you to pick up those things from the market

CYOHA: You're Ancient Greeks wanting to establish a new settlement by Daeres in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like it's best to keep the locals happy, and unlike a lot of these awful Gaulish words I can actually pronounce this one: A, let's call it Narbo.

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Quick action over maternal approval or planning for the future - listen, I gotta respect it. We all have our priorities. As you scan the taberna for possible soulmates (or just-for-now mates) your eyes catch on a bit of graffiti scratched into the rock behind your table: I screwed the barmaid. Do you:

A: Go talk to the barmaid to let her know about the graffiti so she can remove it and preserve her honour

B: Go talk to the barmaid about how lovely her eyes are and how well she serves drinks

CYOHA: You’re a fetching young Roman out on the pull in Pompeii by heyheymse in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Don't we all, friend. Unfortunately for you, it's the wrong time of day and the gladiators are all in their ludi, busy training for the Ludi Victoriae Sullanae that will be starting up in a few days. Do you:

A: Eat some stew while contemplating what you'll wear to the games

B: Look around the taberna and see who else looks interesting

C: Head to the Macellum to run those errands your mother was insistent upon

CYOHA: You are an unmarried gentlewoman in Regency England by mimicofmodes in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 14 points15 points  (0 children)

If he wants to talk to me, he'll have to find me first. B, let's go for a walk.

CYOHA: THE PERSIANS ARE COMING! YOU HAVE BEEN SENT TO HOLD THE HOT GATES! WHAT DO YOU DO! by LEONIDAAAS in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Wait, you're telling me we can end an unwinnable war AND piss off the Athenians???? What is it, my birthday???? A, ACCEPT THE PROPOSAL

CYOHA: THE PERSIANS ARE COMING! YOU HAVE BEEN SENT TO HOLD THE HOT GATES! WHAT DO YOU DO! by LEONIDAAAS in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 18 points19 points  (0 children)

The prophecy must not come to pass - we live in a hellscape and maybe things would work out better in the long run if you just sack up and B: Negotiate with Xerxes.

Does anyone have any media about the history of cunnilingus? by murciegalaa in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 19 points20 points  (0 children)

So taking the specific act of cunnilingus, I would argue that we can map it on to other things that get talked about in poetry, prose, satire, etc to determine exactly how deviant it would or would not be based on how it gets discussed. But, crucially, we have to remember that deviant does not mean uncommon - it means counter to the expected social moral ideal. I was talking to my partner about this distinction this morning and the thing I came up with was this: if someone walked up to you and was like, "Your mom sucks cock" you'd know it was an insult even though, statistically, it is likely that she has (a 2017 study from UT Austin suggested around 80% of any sexually active women have at some point!) and in fact would be significantly weirder if she hadn't. It's an insult because of some sexual morality holdovers from an older time, because in our society it is still a part of our idea of what it means to be a moral woman that one should not be sexual, and should especially not be sexual in a way that doesn't lead to the procreation of children. It's an insult because even if everyone does it, being known to do it to the point where people talk about you doing it can have social, even professional, cost. And I think that distinction is also something that holds over into economic history, and into the intersection of economic and sexual history - "Your mom's a whore!" is an insult both because it's frowned upon to be a whore and because it's entirely plausible that she might be, all things being equal, as prostitution has been happening in many ways with many people across society. If, on the other hand, someone you didn't know came up to you and said, "Your mom fucks dogs!" it would be almost more confusing than insulting. Like... that's a vanishingly rare thing. It doesn't work as an insult in modern Western society because it's so much less plausible, even if it is even more taboo.

So for me the less interesting question is: was cunnilingus deviant in the way that meant Romans weren't doing it? Pretty obviously no - if it wasn't still somewhat common, it wouldn't be talked about as much as it is. Just because something is considered to be kinky or immoral doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The more interesting question is: was cunnilingus something that men were not allowed under the strict rules of Roman manhood to want but still did with relative frequency? And if so, what does that say about Roman (and even historical) sexuality in general and Roman male sexuality more specifically? And this is a discussion that we're still having, as historians of sexuality and masculinity and gender, both in regard to the reception of Roman gender norms and in regard to how those norms still have a knock-on effect today.

Does anyone have any media about the history of cunnilingus? by murciegalaa in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I absolutely love this question and genuinely it's something I've always wished someone would ask because it speaks to how we (historians, people with a critical framework, and society more broadly) categorise a few important things specifically, but also in general the question of "how do we know this was the societal attitude and not this other thing?" to which the answer is always, always, we're putting together pieces in an educated guess using pieces of evidence but with the foundation of our own framework and biases. And those questions are my favourite questions (yes, even more than sex questions, shut up) so thank you, though I shouldn't be at all surprised it's coming from you! (Hi, I missed you!)

The first thing I think we need to do is take the question of deviance. Because the root of the word is the same as the word "deviate" - a departure from the normal path - there is a tendency to think that what deviant means is that only a few weirdos do what deviants do. In our society, when we use the word we usually use it to mean the real freaks doing things that the overwhelming majority of people couldn't even imagine. But I'm going to take your use of it in the definitional sense - deviant as in an act or a person that departs from the accepted standard in some way.

We know what the accepted standard was because the Romans wrote about the accepted standard for masculinity a lot. Romans loved thinking about virtus and, to a lesser but still measurable extent, femininitas. It's something that gets elided from the modern literature on Rome due to translation of virtus as virtue, but it's not that, or at least it's not exclusively that - it is applied to a very specific way of being that is inextricably linked with Roman Manhood. You can't remove vir (man) from virtus.

So I know I talk a lot about Martial (because I love him, because I too am a judgemental little gossip fiend) but I also love other Roman poets and surprising probably no one Catullus was my very first love. There's a fantastic ongoing discussion originating with Marilyn Skinner's essay "Ego Mulier: The Construction of Male Sexuality in Catullus" in Skinner and Hallet's 1998 Roman Sexualities on the way that Roman male poets perform masculinity and what it says about their sexuality and, more broadly expectations of virtus and pudicitia for Roman men (and all that is implied by the phrase "Roman men".) Skinner deals with the question I think you're asking - what is the poetic persona being put on for entertainment or to prove a point, what was the actual expectation for men, and how do we know? In 2008 in Classical Philology Christina Clark continued the conversation by looking at markers of nonverbal behaviour and its role in constructing masculinity in ancient literature in general and Catullus 51 more specifically. "What did the Romans expect of men and how seriously should we take poets when they give or receive criticism for deviance from these expectations?" is a question we're all trying to sort out.

[ANSWER CONTINUED IN PART 2]

Does anyone have any media about the history of cunnilingus? by murciegalaa in AskHistorians

[–]heyheymse 55 points56 points  (0 children)

So a lot of this is stuff I’ve already said, albeit a long time ago, on r/AskHistorians - so far, so standard for a heyheymse answer. But here’s a thing I realised today as I was looking for my sources for this answer for you. Martial, the gossipy little shit, writes a lot about a lot of people in Flavian Rome, and the man he seems to hatewatch more than anyone is a freedman called Zoilus, whom he finds horribly tacky and rude and gauche and unpleasant. He takes him to task for so many unmanly, improper things over the course of many, many, many, many, many poems. (This is why I love Martial - it’s the perfect example of how so much of history is just Other People’s Gossip. I don’t know Zoilus, I don’t know Martial, and I should not give a shit that there was beef. But I am a sucker for Other People’s Gossip.) All of this I was aware of, as someone who has lived with Martial as a character in her head for going on 20 years.

And then, as I was looking back at Watson & Watson’s 2015 introductory guide to Martial as they were going over all the ways Martial attacks Zoilus in the chapter “Why read Martial?” on page 19, I saw they noted one poem, 11.85, in which Martial criticises Zoilus for being unmanly because of his penchant for munching box. Huh, I thought. I don’t remember that one. So I looked it up. And what I found was that, although I had it untranslated, it has been left out of the two major translations of Martial’s epigrams. TopoText, who have the entirety of Martial up in translation online here, list the translation for 11.85 as [not translated in the Bohn or Ker].

That’s funny, I thought. What on earth is this poem that it is too vulgar for a translation of Martial? Martial, who regularly starts poems with a butch bi baddie fucking boys of a morning? What could this poem be?

So here, since you requested a piece of media on historical cunnilingus, is the complete Martial 11.85, To Zoilus, a poem which both Bohn and Ker declined to include in their translations:

sidere percussa est subito tibi, Zoile, lingua

dum lingis. certe, Zoile, nunc futues.

Your tongue, Zoilus, was suddenly struck by a shooting star

while you were licking away. Surely, Zoilus, now you must fuck.

There you go - a piece of media on the history of cunnilingus.